Horse Forum
Home Forum Home Search Horses for Sale Other ClassifiedsNEW! Post an Ad Help

Go Back   Horsetopia Forum > Riding and Training > Shows
Note: Forum logins are completely separate
from your Horsetopia classifieds account or wishlist.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-04-2014, 12:40 PM   #1
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
Proper frame for stock horse breed shows?

There is an ad on one of our Alberta horse for sale sites that's for a paint filly. They have pictures and videos from her first show in June when she likely had just turned two years old as she is now two years old. God only knows how young she was when they started her. They don't say if she actually placed or not.

I haven't been to a breed show for a few years so I'm wondering about her frame in the pics and videos. Her head hangs so low in the videos she looks like she's looking for a place to lie down. Total peanut roller. Her eyes look sad and defeated. She's shuffling along and it's disturbing to see. The one other horse in the video look like it's moving similarly but not quite as low.

Are judges at breed shows still marking up horses in this artificial frame? They're supposed to be at a level headset. And they're supposed to look like they're a pleasure to ride. A horse like this would not be a pleasure to ride.

Her pictures break my heart. They want ridiculous money for her and say she's sound. Yeah, for now.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 02:59 PM   #2
Bombproof Member
 
redboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Posts: 8,710
Video?
__________________


Horses are so forgiving. ~ Tom Dorrance
redboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 03:50 PM   #3
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
I didn't want to post a link in case someone gets mad or knows the breeder that has her for sale. Her head is way below her wither. Almost to her knees. Maybe I'll just copy the main picture.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 04:56 PM   #4
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
Okay, I hope I don't get in trouble for this but my understanding is that anything posted publicly is fair game for reposting elsewhere. I don't know how to make it bigger, sorry. I think you can get the idea, though.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 05:04 PM   #5
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
This is more like what I'd like to see although the nose could be in a tad more.


This is me on my old gelding. His headset is decent but a little low.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 05:30 PM   #6
Halter broke
 
beau159's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernHorseGirl View Post
Her pictures break my heart. They want ridiculous money for her and say she's sound. Yeah, for now.
Not debating that her headset is WAY too low for the class, but just because a horse is started young doesn't mean they won't stay sound.

Just like starting a horse when they are older won't ensure they stay sound.

I bought my horse Red when he was 6 years old. He was for sale because they didn't ride him and he was bred too nicely (and looked nice too) to sit around and get fat in the pasture. Pretty much green broke and didn't know anything.

He's now 8 and I've had his coffin joints injected, special corrective wedge shoeing on his front feet, both hocks injected because the right one is fusing, and his right stifle injected because it's catching.

Had he been worked hard as a 2 or 3 year old, I supposed people who blame that. When instead, he just plain has a "bad body" that you couldn't tell by looking at him.

Anywho... I don't like to ride them when they are that young either (like the horse in question), but you can't always pin soundness issues on starting them young.

Okay, off my soapbox now.
__________________
It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.

Saltys Red Rock ~ 2006 AQHA gelding ~ "Red"
CK Grey Meatball ~ 2011 AQHA gelding ~ "Shotgun" (Baby)

beau159 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 05:36 PM   #7
Kid Safe
 
Sirita_88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mt. Juliet, Tennessee
Posts: 7,337
That horses head set is way too low. But, to my understanding APHA is behind AQHA in the new rules. I WISH I had videotaped the finals of WP at the AQHYA world show. Those horses were all moving forward, and they asked for extended gaits. No horses head was that low.

AQHA is finally dinging people for the ears being below the withers. It's supposed to be a major fault for the horse to have it's ears below its withers for more than 3 strides.

They are now asking for extension at the lope, if they feel a horse is going too slow, or too intimidated they ask for an extension. It's optional. If you think your horse is going well, you don't have to extend. However, if you are going too slow/too much hip, etc. and you don't correct it when asked, you will be knocked down. This encourages people to show at the proper gait from the get go.
__________________

Last edited by Sirita_88; 11-04-2014 at 05:56 PM.
Sirita_88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 06:05 PM   #8
Bombproof Member
 
sundancer maiden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Udall, KS
Posts: 7,722
If the horse is for sale, just link the sale ad. I bet there is a video. Also, doesn't having a horse for sale leave it wide open to pics and videos?
__________________

You don't have to be crazy to be my friend,
but it helps!!!
sundancer maiden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 06:12 PM   #9
Kid Safe
 
AlbertaGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Alberta
Posts: 5,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by sundancer maiden View Post
If the horse is for sale, just link the sale ad. I bet there is a video. Also, doesn't having a horse for sale leave it wide open to pics and videos?
I think we have to be considering buying the horse, and I'm pretty sure NorthernHorseGirl was just asking a question, after seeing something that concerned her

If anyone wants to see the entire ad, she's on this page http://www.northernhorse.com/classifieds/ with the ad having been posted on Oct 31st That way, I don't think anyone gets in trouble
__________________
Some people say horses don't have a sense of humor... they obviously haven't met mine yet ;o)
AlbertaGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 06:21 PM   #10
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
Beau, you're absolutely right but riding them too young and forcing them to move like that is really pushing the envelope. I've told my story on here before about a paint filly we had that was mildly pigeon toed that we had to have put down before she was four years old due to severe navicular. We had her x-rayed and the vet said she had the navicluar bones of an old rodeo horse that had been used hard it's whole life. I could see how jagged it was. She had about a dozen rides at that time due to being started late.

Sirita, thanks for the clarification.

And thanks AG for that. I just wasn't comfortable doing it myself. I considered sending them a message questioning if she placed in the show and if that's what judges are looking for but figured it would be met with defensiveness.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2014, 08:15 PM   #11
Bombproof Member
 
redboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Posts: 8,710
To me, she moves like shes crippled,.., and sore on the fronts,..,
makes me hurt to watch her
__________________


Horses are so forgiving. ~ Tom Dorrance
redboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 09:05 AM   #12
Halter broke
 
pagcam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 65
I do suspect, in alberta, at least, judges are still rewarding this movement. It does take a few years for national rules to make it down to the local level.

I have to give this mare huge points though, because when I watch the video it is obvious that she has been trained to drop her head on command - she levels out a few times, and the rider vibrates the reins and she drops. Very willing and eager to please, especially as she is not wearing a bit. I would rather watch this all day than horses that have been bred with such a low set neck that they will always want to put their head between their knees. Such a horse has truly been born crippled.



See above ^

I have been watching this barn for a while, because I sold a horse to a couple who boards there and I found that I just love the way their horses look.

But although they are cleaning up on the pinto circuit, they are not even competing on the paint circuit; just applying for certificates of recognition and achievement. To me, this speaks volumes of the current judging on the paint circuit.
pagcam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 09:31 AM   #13
Bombproof Member
 
redboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Posts: 8,710
Is it just me, or does this poor filly seem land toe first??
She looks like shes walking on egg shells,.,
And, I notice the videos do not allow the viewer to see much 'foot action'.
__________________


Horses are so forgiving. ~ Tom Dorrance
redboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 09:39 AM   #14
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
This is why I want to get into western dressage. I can't do breed shows with my horse anyway and he's naturally got a higher headset due to a short, thick neck and thick through the throatlatch. Western dressage will allow him to move in his natural way and he and I will both be happy.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 01:57 PM   #15
Bombproof Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 9,506
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
Yes, she certainly drops too low often, but you can see the rider bump her back up.
I also am led to believe that this is a two year old walk jog class, with only two entries, as I never saw a lope, nor more horses
The horse is only a two year old that is not yet confident/sure as to where she needs to carry herself, as seen by that inconstant head carriage, where she often drops too low, but one can also see potencial with more and correct training
This horse appears to be calm and relaxed-a big deal in trying to get a green horse shown.
In theory, perhaps both horses should be gated, as the other horse also gets too low at times, but a judge has to place a class or make a statement
Is this an example as to how you would want that horse to move when she is 'finished- or in tough competition? Definitely no, but for a two year old walk jog class, I would rather see this, incorrect as it is, than a horse racing a round, with heavy rein contact that can't be rated off of seat and legs
This horse I could fix and shows promise. The former is questionable
No, she is not landing toe first, and yes, her jog is not a consistent even one two, one two yet, but then she is two years old, and not really fair to take her as an example of a correctly moving western pleasure horse under today's standards. she is also most likly on her front end most times, as you can't have lift and true collection when ahead gets that low

Here is a video you might which to watch, far as what is desired, as per your question. It is put out by AQHA, and shows examples of correct and incorrect western pleasure movement
My stupid computor won't play it at the moment

http://www.horsechannel.com/western-...e-judging.aspx

NG, chose cowboy dressage for the right , not wrong reason, including a bad example of western pleasure for your reason
To me, that class makes no sense, othert then it gives people achance to ride on contact , with two hands , often used on acurb. Thus great just to have aclass that allows people to show ahorse that is not trained to the level to rate speed off of seat and legs alone, nor that has that total self carriage, and that's okay, but just don't use poor examples of western pl to disc that discipline in general, as it takes a great deal of training, and natural ability to have one go according to desired AQHA standards in that video

Last edited by Smilie; 11-05-2014 at 02:27 PM.
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 04:37 PM   #16
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
Thanks for the video Smilie. It's helpful. What have you been seeing in the appaloosa world lately?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your last paragraph.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 04:48 PM   #17
Pasture Pet
 
EquineAlberta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,993
Keep in mind the super low head WAS fashion for a while, so some breeders bred for it. In judging, I have seen a few young horses that I am sure just naturally want to carry their head that low. Owners of these horses have to work to get those horses able to carry their head to where it is now considered correct.

I agree that the Paints still seem to be competing with the lower head though.

It is really too bad that neck height is such a big deal rather than considering the horse's overall build and way of going. It seems a shame to punish the horses that were bred for the low head carriage.
EquineAlberta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 05:50 PM   #18
Bombproof Member
 
redboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Posts: 8,710
Why is she walking around like her feet hurt?
Is that some kind of 'desired' way of going,.., not pretty in the least IMO.
__________________


Horses are so forgiving. ~ Tom Dorrance
redboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 06:17 PM   #19
Bombproof Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 9,506
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
Quote:
Originally Posted by EquineAlberta View Post
Keep in mind the super low head WAS fashion for a while, so some breeders bred for it. In judging, I have seen a few young horses that I am sure just naturally want to carry their head that low. Owners of these horses have to work to get those horses able to carry their head to where it is now considered correct.

I agree that the Paints still seem to be competing with the lower head though.

It is really too bad that neck height is such a big deal rather than considering the horse's overall build and way of going. It seems a shame to punish the horses that were bred for the low head carriage.

No horse was ever bred for that extreme low head carriage
What happened at one time, and why the NSBA was created to help clean up the western pleasure industry, and the major stock horse breeds adopted those standards, was that as with everything, 'more became better'
When horses like Zippo Pine Bar first came onto the western pleasure horse scene, with a natural level top line and a slow legged way of going, many horses not built nor with the ability to move like that , were forced to, with low and slow becoming more important that correct movement,and thus things like draw reins and other artificial devises were used to force that head down, versus teaching correct movement first,
Western pl got a lot of flack, so that people within the industry moved to clean up the act. A horse bred for western pleasure, moves with a natural level topline, and the good ones, even before any training starts, when they pick up the lope, out in pasture, do so by sitting back and picking up the lope, versus trotting fast and falling into it
We don't know as to how this horse in the video was trained. My guess is that things like draw reins were used, so that he was forced to move with a low head set. On a horse like that, the horse really does not know where he should carry himself, thus drops too low, once that devise is off
Correct training , has that trainer working on correct movement first, building strength, and as that horse learns self carriage and correct movement and relaxes, that neck and head carriage takes care of itself
No horse was ever born to either four beat or carry his head too low-those things are man made
No EA, what happened was that horse trained incorrectly, now needing to show according to the new standards, have to have that incorrect training of too low of ahead carriage corrected. Please tell me one conformation that would have a HORSE WANT TO NATURALLY MOVE WITH SUCH AHEAD CARRIAGE, except maybe a stud, picking up the scents left behind by mares!
With ahead that low, impossible for ahorse not to be on his forehand.
Redboy, the horse is not moving sore, just with an irregular jog, caused by slow being worked on before correctness and lift, so that those legs can't easily swing like a pendulum. Gotta have lift fore that, drive from behind and a horse off of his forehand
If you can find me one breeder where the pleasure horses he bred, move with a low head carriage like that, on their own, out in the pasture, as their natural way of going, EA, I will eat my words!!!!
Maybe read some of the history of western pleasure , and why such poor examples as four beaters and too low head carriages were ever produced, and you will find that it was the incorrect training that produced those horses, not genetics!
Many mediocre trainers can force a low head set and also force that horse to go slow. It takes a great trainer and a good horse to produce one that can move slow, with a level topline, and yet execute true correct gaits, and therein lies the reason we see so many bad examples of western pleasure
Any horse can lope or canter a correct tree beat gait, allowed to move on.
When a horse is forced to move slow beyond his ability, training and strength to do so, the second beat, breaKS UP INTO TWO-THUS THE FOUR BEAT LOPE. totally man made.
Ditto for the too low head carriage-resulting from head carriage and speed being focused on first, versus correct movement from behind.
Ok, I rest my case, as it does become hard to defend western pleasure and explain what is truly desired, when so many bad examples are still out there, and when there are judges that still use them, that need to have their cards pulled

Last edited by Smilie; 11-05-2014 at 06:36 PM.
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 07:37 PM   #20
Bombproof Member
 
redboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Posts: 8,710
Thanks Smilie, makes sense about the too slow before correctness
Also makes sense,., poor training vs genetics, and rewarding bad examples
therefore not ridding the pleasure world of bad trainers and bad training.
__________________


Horses are so forgiving. ~ Tom Dorrance
redboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Horsetopia Forum > Riding and Training > Shows

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
what would you do? lbequ4002 General Horse Advice 39 04-17-2011 01:43 PM
The Five Body Parts by Clinton Anderson Valerie62 Training 9 08-01-2010 10:53 AM
Pellets vs sweet feed bamabrat Health & Nutrition 17 01-16-2009 09:05 AM
Breeds of Cattle! QuarterCowGirl Farm Animal 44 02-06-2007 09:05 AM
Just a few quotes about horses....just a few. taelesean Equine Humor 7 06-20-2006 06:08 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:14 PM.


Board Powered by vBuletin ® Copyright © 2000 - 2007 Jel Soft
Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0