Horse Forum
Home Forum Home Search Horses for Sale Other ClassifiedsNEW! Post an Ad Help

Go Back   Horsetopia Forum > Riding and Training > Shows
Note: Forum logins are completely separate
from your Horsetopia classifieds account or wishlist.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-05-2014, 08:38 PM   #21
Bombproof Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 9,506
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
Quote:
Originally Posted by redboy View Post
Thanks Smilie, makes sense about the too slow before correctness
Also makes sense,., poor training vs genetics, and rewarding bad examples
therefore not ridding the pleasure world of bad trainers and bad training.
Yes, that is the on going problem, educating both judges and trainers, to improve the image of the western pleasure horse, and to have people recognize truly great movers, as in that AQHA video, thus not lumping all pleasure horses into the same level of both ability and training.
A judge that I had the privilege of taking in his judging clinic, designed for both the horse person and judges, not just on western pl, but a multitude of disciplines, learning to recognize what is a plus manover and what is a negative, served as a judge that judged the judges, at major shows like the ApHC Worlds and AQHA Congress
That judge holds cards in multiple disciplines and with major stock horse breeds, plus specialty events like reining. His name is Joe Carter.
I encourage anyone that gets a chance, whether they ever wish to judge or not, to take in some of these judging clinics and learn what the good judges are looking for.
There is also a video, a bit dated, but still has a lot of value, far as watching a group of western pleasure horses and having the positives and standards pointed out.
That video is called, western pleasure through a judges eye, and the judge is Mielke something or other. I can go to my video collection and look up the exact title and name of the judge, if anyone wants
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2014, 08:53 PM   #22
Bombproof Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 9,506
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
here is some info on Joe Carter, and he is a Canadian!

I have had the privilege of also showing under him, on the Appaloosa circuit.
Besides being a judge, he is also a farrier, and his insight, showing us some video examples , show settings, at the judging clinic, on subtle lameness, was awesome! A lame horse will not place under him!

'In another move to underscore its commitment to improving the industryís judging procedures, the American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) today announced that longtime AQHA Judge Joe Carter will join the organization in the new position of director of judges. Carter, who brings more than four decades of service and leadership in the equine industry to AQHA, begins November 4.

A native of Newfoundland, Canada, and owner/operator of Carterís Training Centre in St. George, Ontario, Carter became an AQHA judge in 1981 and has since judged shows and hosted educational clinics in nearly two dozen countries across the globe. He has judged the AQHA World Championship Show six times, the All American Quarter Horse Congress six times, the AQHYA World Championship Show once and was a judge at the inaugural Bayer Select World Championship Show in 2003. He also has judged such notable industry events as the National Reining Horse Association (NRHA) Futurity (nine times), the inaugural reining class at the USET Festival of Champions in 1999 and the inaugural reining class at theWorld Equestrian Games in Jerez, Spain in 2002.

As director of judges, Carter will serve as the Associationís liaison to the nearly 600 approved judges. In the newly created role, he will travel from his home in Canada and maintain one-on-one contact with judges, help develop judges skills and proficiency where needed and serve to enhance the perception of judges by ensuring they are judging all classes by the rules, maintaining the highest ethical standards expected of AQHA Judges and making decisions with integrity and honesty.

Anyone judging, even at local light horse shows, should try and take in a judging clinic with Joe Carter. I learned so much, plus he is a fun presenter!
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 08:34 AM   #23
Pasture Pet
 
horselady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: albany new york
Posts: 15,001
I can not read the books that are posted, they do seem to repeat repeat. and i get bored.
TO me that horse is started way to young. and for that face to be down that low in her knee area is not correct. as for the face bumping i think the rider wants to tell that horse to put her head back down NOT UP>
again i know little about western showing but to me a 2 year old that has progressed that far is way to early in her years. that means at a year old and a couple of months she was started. those knees and legs are still growing her brain is not set for that constant slow crippled jog.

as for western dressage. WELL i have seen it in person and find it truly wonderful. if someone wants to dabble it in and have their horse learn something new than that is the way to go. if hands are quiet and leg is giving the signals than what is the harm?? it is music in western clothes .

Last edited by horselady; 11-06-2014 at 08:41 AM.
horselady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 09:57 AM   #24
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
Thank you HL, I totally agree.
My horse will never be a low headset western pleasure show horse and no amount of training will change that. He's very well trained and has a lovely slow jog and lope and does decently at the local shows unless there's a level headset competitor. He can't do it anymore than I could be trained to be a gymnast. It's not a matter of training for a horse like him and to say it's his lack of training is insulting.
The western dressage is basically horsemanship patterns and light reining without the hard stops and spins. It's a much healthier way for a horse to move, it's not like regular dressage with their heads cranked in in an unnatural way. The focus is on allowing the horse to move naturally but collected, how can anyone not see the benefit in it? I love doing patterns and find pleasure classes to be boring and have lots of opportunities for someone to mess up but not be seen by the judge and to place well when they don't deserve it. Also, there's only one judge which leaves lots of opportunity for personal opinions rather than what's right. I love getting comments from a panel of three judges who are totally focused on me and my horse alone.

I'll be very honest and say that in the video provided I didn't like what the guy showed as the perfect lope. I thought it looked a bit heavy on the forehand and the horse moved a bit crab like.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 11:14 AM   #25
Bombproof Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 9,506
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
Quote:
Originally Posted by horselady View Post
I can not read the books that are posted, they do seem to repeat repeat. and i get bored.
TO me that horse is started way to young. and for that face to be down that low in her knee area is not correct. as for the face bumping i think the rider wants to tell that horse to put her head back down NOT UP>
again i know little about western showing but to me a 2 year old that has progressed that far is way to early in her years. that means at a year old and a couple of months she was started. those knees and legs are still growing her brain is not set for that constant slow crippled jog.

as for western dressage. WELL i have seen it in person and find it truly wonderful. if someone wants to dabble it in and have their horse learn something new than that is the way to go. if hands are quiet and leg is giving the signals than what is the harm?? it is music in western clothes .
Read and watch that AQHA video, and you will see that the head that low is not correct. If you watch the ad video, when the horse drops too low, most likely created by training with draw reins, the rider bumps that head up, as she knows it is not right, but the horse was trained wrong
Starting a two year old correctly , does not hurt the horse, as I have my old reining mare, still sound today at age 28. Smilie,'s only issue is her being IR and she has no arthritic conditions because she was started as a two year old
You will note that this is also a walk jog class-no lope
Not once did I suggest that this horse is an example of good or correct western pl movement-it is just someone's ad that has ahorse moving in correctly.
Surely you have seen similar ads in other disciplines, where anyone with an iota of knowledge knows the horse is not performing up to standards
If you wish to view standard, don't watch that ad video, but rather the one I posted, but out by AQHA to show what is desired.
I also get bored with the same negativity posted against western pleasure, by people not knowing what the true standards are, taking some bad
examples
Never said there was anything wrong with some people wanting to try western dressage, although the concept fails me, as if you wish to ride dressage, using two hands and contact on the bit, grab an English saddle and ride dressage!
Maybe we should start an English reining class?
Are you aware that western performance horses are started similar to that western dressage, using two hands on a snaffle and contact as needed?? Only difference is, that the horse eventually learns self carriage on a loose rein, ridden off of seat and legs
I see western dressage great for someone that wishes to keep their western horse at that level, and it is very popular with breeds like Morgans, that already ride with way more contact than stock horses, so great to add that to allow people to have that niche if they wish, just don't try and cram it down my throat that it is somehow superior to a good western pleasure horse at upper end, nor take an example of very poor western pleasure as THE standard of that discipline.
Kinda like posting a picture of Rolkur,with a blue tongue hanging out as the dressage standard ( and that was at a high level of competition in the warmup )

Last edited by Smilie; 11-06-2014 at 11:30 AM.
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 11:47 AM   #26
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
Seriously Smilie? You are being dismissive of another trend and yet being defensive of what you enjoy. I'm not sure that anybody spoke of disliking western pleasure classes but if what this young filly has gone though to place in one these days when my understanding is that that style of headset has gone the way of the four beat lope then I do not like the fact that judges are still marking them up. That was my original question. This was not a negative thread about western pleasure and I'm sorry if you're sick of them, I'm sick of the controversial meat horse issue being brought up over and over, thus I do not respond to the threads.

My horse is only a quarter Morgan but has a Morgan body, he cannot compete against horses that have level headsets and to try to force him into it would be cruel. He collects beautifully, however, and that's what matters. But he's not overcollected. And he is a pleasure to ride. He is well trained and to imply that because he's not walking around with his head level with his topline so he must not be trained properly is insulting. I want my horse to enjoy what we're doing, not be forced into something that will make him unhappy and I happen to like the whole idea of western dressage for myself as well. It sounds like you do not know very much about it if you're comparing it to rollkur dressage so perhaps you should google it and learn about it before you make judgements.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 11:57 AM   #27
Kid Safe
 
NorthernHorseGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,388
And please avoid being condescending and rude to other people who are kind enough to post on my thread. I appreciate everyone's contributions but do not appreciate the 'my way is the only way attitude'. I think this is one of the reasons we have so many new members on here but people seem to be afraid to post.
__________________
Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance. ~Garth Brooks~
NorthernHorseGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 01:02 PM   #28
Pasture Pet
 
EquineAlberta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,993
I think a LOW neck/head can be the result of breeding/conformation the same way a high head can be. As NHG pointed out, her Morgan type horse is going to have a higher natural way of going than many other breeds. Same with my Dutch Harness horse cross...her neck comes up out of her shoulders differently. It makes absolute sense to me that when the low head became fashion, that breeders would breed for it. Just like in dressage how now that high action is in fashion, people are breeding for it.

I think it is unwise to assume the trainer of the filly pictured was cruel in her training just based on that picture.
EquineAlberta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 01:53 PM   #29
Pasture Pet
 
horselady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: albany new york
Posts: 15,001
I might be an english rider and i do appreciate and view many western riders and how the horses are trained and how the horses the should move in shows.
to me a horse that jogs like he is crippled is incorrect. and that head set is way too low. again. posting on the video of what i saw.
to me that horse is a $500. pretty filly. not that asking price. and i will not even consider the parentage of that filly.

and to me rolkur is horse abuse as is tying a horses nose to the feet so he learns the head set for western riding. or tying a horses head to the side of a saddle to learn to give to the bit.
horselady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 03:27 PM   #30
Bombproof Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 9,506
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
Again horse Lady, no one here that understands western pleasure is defending that video of that two year old sale horse, nor do they consider it correct
If you want to critique western pleasure, please view thaT AQHA video, and discuss your views on it, as it demonstrates as to what is desirable, and NOT that sale video
Do you see where that two year old was rewarded for that way of going, in any upper level show under a good judge, and against tough competition???
Nope, so why oh why are you trying to infer that I like what I see in that video, or consider it okay?????????

EA, yes, level of head carriage has nothing to do with collection, and the final frame of that collection will depend on the conformation of that horse, far as how the neck ties into the whither.
Pleasure bred horses have a natural level topline, but none have a neck that ties in so that it is natural for them to carry their head so that it is way below whither height, and in fact, dropped that low, it is impossible for a horse to move correct, plus the horse has no choice but to be on his forehand
While any horse, regardless of how the neck ties in, can either raise their head above what is natural for them, or drop it below what is natural for them, it is still not their natural way of going, due to conformation
Horselady, have you ever watched or read any DVDs by someone that actually shows western pleasure horses successfully at upper end??
You don't get a good pleasure horse by tying his head anywhere, but by getting correct movement from behind, and as that horse relaxes, due to the conformation of a pleasure horse, the neck levels out, versus having a bow in the middle of it
How can you assume that you know how I or those I respect in the western pleasure industry train a horse?
I use a snaffle and my legs, and that is it. Do some self educating please.
I was at the Ya Ha Tinda this past weekend. There was a supposed sheep hunter, with one full draft and one half draft, who never made it much beyond the camp grounds, let alone attempt to climb anything significaNT.
Along your line of thinking, I should then take those poor examples as representing all drafts used under saddle!
I find your assumption that all western pleasure horses are trained by tying their head down insulting and ignorant

Last edited by Smilie; 11-06-2014 at 03:36 PM.
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 04:09 PM   #31
Weanling Member
 
Apollo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 345
I don't think horselady was saying that all western pleasure horses are trained that way. Your indignation is misplaced. SOME Trainers may utilize less than scrupulous methods. This happens in all disciplines. The notion that dressage horses are trained with Rolkur and have blue tongues is equally ignorant and also a blanket statement. Are some? Certainly. I would not want my horse standing in Anky's barn, but not all are trained that way.

In terms of the filly in question, I feel bad for her, I feel that her head is much to low and I politely disagree with the assertion that the rider/trainer is trying to get the filly to raise her head in the videos, I feel quite the opposite actually.

There have been studies that suggest that starting a horse at such a young age can be detrimental to its overall development and long term soundness. I feel like this filly is headed down the road to that fate - This is my opinion and nobody has to agree with it, or even like it, but it is how I feel. Do some horses do ok and stay sound long term. Sure. However by in large most do not.

Personally I would like to see this filly track up and travel with a more level head. What I would like to see even more would be for her to be turned out for a year to grow up and then restarted again.

JMO
__________________
Blackburne Jack (Apollo) ~ OTTB
Some Hand A.K.A. "Bold Prince" (Benny) ~ OTTB
Apollo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 06:08 PM   #32
Bombproof Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 9,506
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
Exactly, and why I gave the Rollkur example, as Lady seems to take that video as an example of western pleasure, so I countered with a similar broad bush example, using rolkur. I guess I must not write too clear, if you got the impression I was inferring all dressage horses were trained that way!
Look through this entire thread and that video was taken as an example of western pleasure in general
I have a friend that rides dressage, and I myself took dressage lessons all winter one year, as that was what was being offered locally, far as English
It is also the reason I posted the AQHA video on western pl, to show as to what is desired
Far as starting a young horse correctly,a t age two, with good conformation, and not pushing that horse, studies have shown that it will actually increase bone density and produce a horse that stays sound longer
I also totally agree that pushing a young horse towards some show date, not backing off if that horse shows any soreness, is extremely harmful
We can start an entire argument on that point again, as to what came first-pushing young horses or putting money on young horses???
Two and three year old race horses have faced that quandary for eons
What time do you think three year old reiners are started-the ones going towards a major reining futurity, like the NRHA?
They are up in the bridle as three year olds, ridden one handed and not just walking and jogging, but performing sliding stops, spins, flying lead changes all at the lope and gallop
What about three year old working cowhorses and cutters???
Pushing young horses,western, goes across the whole board, and is not limited to western pleasure
I'm all for changing that, but as long as big purses are put on those futurities, or those horses doing well at a young age, then retired to stud , with a big breeding fee, this tread will continue
Yes, yes, this young horse shows promise, far as seeming good minded, needs to learn correct movement, versus moving in an artifiacial intimidated manner, and with the correct training, that head carriage can be fixed. At this point i agree she should be turned out and then started correctly in a year, by someone that knows how to train a western pl horse, versus trying to create one , by focusing incorrectly on speed and head carriage, working instead on movement from behind and correct cadence

Also, that horse was advertized as being shown in a two year old walk jog class, where there appears to be one other horse. No mention of winning the class, thus reading between the lines, that filly must have placed last in that class of two-thus hardly an example of what is being placed
My point is look hard enough and you will find abusive people in any discipline, English or western, that will do anything to win, with the horse's well fare secondary. For some reason, most likely because western pl is a sort of entry level class for those just starting to show western, many examples of poor western pl are seen, and un fortunately taken as the standard for the entire discipline, and when thread start to wander down that path-yes I get defensive and will go into faults that exist in other disciplines also. Guess that makes me human!Sorry about that , but I happen to think that my western pl horses are great movers and good athletes, able to do a number of jobs and that are trained without abusive methods or lots of gimmicks
What was the point of posting that video in the first place-to once again open a can of worms in regards to western pleasure?
Why not once in awhile post horses in other disciplines that are performing poorly?
Ok, I'm too thin skinned, and apologize for my sensitivity!

Last edited by Smilie; 11-06-2014 at 07:52 PM.
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2014, 08:22 PM   #33
Bombproof Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 9,506
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernHorseGirl View Post
Seriously Smilie? You are being dismissive of another trend and yet being defensive of what you enjoy. I'm not sure that anybody spoke of disliking western pleasure classes but if what this young filly has gone though to place in one these days when my understanding is that that style of headset has gone the way of the four beat lope then I do not like the fact that judges are still marking them up. That was my original question. This was not a negative thread about western pleasure and I'm sorry if you're sick of them, I'm sick of the controversial meat horse issue being brought up over and over, thus I do not respond to the threads.

My horse is only a quarter Morgan but has a Morgan body, he cannot compete against horses that have level headsets and to try to force him into it would be cruel. He collects beautifully, however, and that's what matters. But he's not overcollected. And he is a pleasure to ride. He is well trained and to imply that because he's not walking around with his head level with his topline so he must not be trained properly is insulting. I want my horse to enjoy what we're doing, not be forced into something that will make him unhappy and I happen to like the whole idea of western dressage for myself as well. It sounds like you do not know very much about it if you're comparing it to rollkur dressage so perhaps you should google it and learn about it before you make judgements.
Look, NHG, had you just said in your post, I am going to do western dressage on my Morgan cross, I would have said -'great, you should do well in it
Heading of post also was proper frame for stock horse. You then posted that awful example as your justification for going to western dressage instead, as your horse would never have that awful low had set.
Do you not see why that caused an issue and got this whole circus rolling?
Enjoy western dressage for the right reason, and not because you feel it a voids the evils of western pleasure, and we will be all good!
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Horsetopia Forum > Riding and Training > Shows

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
what would you do? lbequ4002 General Horse Advice 39 04-17-2011 01:43 PM
The Five Body Parts by Clinton Anderson Valerie62 Training 9 08-01-2010 10:53 AM
Pellets vs sweet feed bamabrat Health & Nutrition 17 01-16-2009 09:05 AM
Breeds of Cattle! QuarterCowGirl Farm Animal 44 02-06-2007 09:05 AM
Just a few quotes about horses....just a few. taelesean Equine Humor 7 06-20-2006 06:08 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:13 PM.


Board Powered by vBuletin ® Copyright © 2000 - 2007 Jel Soft
Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0