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Old 12-27-2010, 06:08 PM   #1
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Desperately need help!!!

So last year we bought a Norwich Terrier. He is very cute and super sweet with people but can get aggressive with other dogs and he doesn't mind at all!!!!! If he gets out of the house he is gone and there is no catching him unless you have 2 or 3 people helping you. Tonight he got out and headed straight for the 3 pit bulls next door. They are all chained and one of them decided that he would make a great snack. Of course, our dog started it and the other dog just responded. So as I'm pulling my daughter (who is clutching our dog) out of the teeth of the pit bull I know this dog has to go. we've had so much going on this year with moving from TN to Ga and my knee issues so we've not had a lot of time to train him. So yes, it is our fault that he isn't trained. I'm afraid to give him to someone else that will just throw him in the back yard and forget about him or just keep passing him on until he gets seriously hurt or killed. We've not had him neutered yet---all the others are--and that will be done asap. What should I do? find a trainer? find a new home? we keep all our animals for life so I feel like I've really failed this little guy pretty bad.
Please no throwing stones as I'm already pretty upset about this issue. I'd like some constructive advice that could help us get him trained or help find him a new home. Thanks for listening!
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Old 12-27-2010, 06:20 PM   #2
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If its too much for you thats OK.. Try and find him a place in a rescue or with a trainer that can work on him . He is a terrier and they can be a lil hard to deal with if you dont have the time to devote which it sounds like is his major issue. Its okay to give up if you are NOT the right home for him. I personally can only handle two dogs at a time. So when I tried three, it made my head spin, ( And I'm a dog trainer!) So.. I rehomed the one that I tried to add to a good family. They call me if they have questions.

So dont stress, if its NOT working, thats OKAY. He needs a firm hand and some training. If you dont have that time, he should go to someone who does , before he gets himself in a BAD situation.
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Old 12-27-2010, 06:20 PM   #3
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I don't know what to tell you but I can tell that you care very much about the dog! You need to find him a good home but make sure you are honest with whoever takes him or he will end up ============= someone will want him - there are alot of good people out there who care deeply about animals - any animal! Good Luck!
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:30 PM   #4
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Nothing like chaining your pitbulls in your yard to make them aggressive.

As far as your situation, if he's not working out it's okay to rehome him. Terriers can be a handful and one that runs off like that would drive me nuts. He's better off getting a chance to live with someone that will enjoy him than in a home where he's just a nuisance. On the other hand, neutering him might make a big difference.

Is your yard fenced? Maybe that's what it's going to take to keep him home.
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:14 AM   #5
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If its too much for you thats OK.. Try and find him a place in a rescue or with a trainer that can work on him . He is a terrier and they can be a lil hard to deal with if you dont have the time to devote which it sounds like is his major issue. Its okay to give up if you are NOT the right home for him. I personally can only handle two dogs at a time. So when I tried three, it made my head spin, ( And I'm a dog trainer!) So.. I rehomed the one that I tried to add to a good family. They call me if they have questions.

So dont stress, if its NOT working, thats OKAY. He needs a firm hand and some training. If you dont have that time, he should go to someone who does , before he gets himself in a BAD situation.
I have to agree with all of this, if it's more than you can handle then it's important to realize that and put the dogs best interest ahead, in this case it very well may be re-homing. My only addition is that if you recognize that re-homing is the best option that you don't run out and get another dog or pup any time soon because it could happen all over again.

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Nothing like chaining your pitbulls in your yard to make them aggressive.
Nothing like stating false facts to contribute to how people think about the breed. Simply chaining a dog will not make it aggressive! A chain can not make an animal aggressive, however lack of training/care/and excersise can. I know for a fact that 4 of my 5 dogs could get out of my yard if they so choose to leave, chaining can be the only form of safe confinment for some people and their APBTs. Do I chain mine? No because I go outside with them, I do have 2 chainspots if I need to leave a dog out and run inside for something, some people don't have as good of a set up as I do and chaining is their best option. I have a female that can be aggressive with other female dogs, does it mean if she is on a chain (without a fence around) and another dog comes in the yard it's the chains fault for her being dog aggressive? Absolutely not.

I do not agree with a dog being on a chain 24/7 or for someone putting their dog on a chain to look like it's guarding something, but I do hate when people blame the confinment for how the animal acts to a trespassing dog. Thankfully the OP doesn't blame the Pit Bulls for her dog getting out, alot of people these days would make this whole story about the nasty Pit Bulls that went at their little fufu, cudos to the OP!
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Old 12-28-2010, 07:10 AM   #6
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I will start by saying that I have had Cairn Terriers for over 20 years - had my own and rescued a TON of them. The small terriers can be a handful - they are the adage of a "big dog in a small package". While none of my own Cairns have been dog aggressive, I have had rescue Cairns that were difficult at times with other dogs.

So...here we are with said little stinky Norwich. You can most likely get him over the running away, not paying attention, and somewhat the dog aggressiveness. That will take time and effort. Only you know if you have the time or want to take the time. For coming when called, I have used food for many, many years, lots of obedience classes and a lot of time. My current Cairn (a rescue) we used an ecollar on.

The basis for terriers was to be independent - they hunt independently. Norwich and Norfolk - small enough to carry in the saddle bags - when you would get to the den of the animal, you dump the them out and they hunt on their own, with very little human interference. You either love their personality, or you don't.

Rehoming is an option. My first suggestion would be to contact the breeder - and see if he/she would be willing to take him back. Most reputable breeders will. If not, contact http://norwichterrierclub.org/rescue - even if the gal listed is not in your area, that is okay - call her. They will have other members all over the nation that may be able to help. I would call rather than email - you can talk to her, she will be able to help you with any issues specific to the breed and let you know how the rescue process works.

Not everyone is a "terrier person" - and that is okay. My parents had an Airedale for years, until he died of old age, they wanted another - I told the that they were bad terrier parents and I would not help them get another if that is the breed they wanted. They are now on their second Standard Poodle and are head over heels about the breed - really a perfect fit for them. The Norwich just may be a bad fit for your family. Better to know now, find him a good home and find a breed that suits you better.
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:12 PM   #7
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Um, Amykatrina, you should know by now how I feel about pitbulls. I'm also very against chaining a dog out in a yard instead of being responsible and putting up a fence. Also spaying and neutering. If a person doesn't have the time or money to do right by their dog which includes safely fencing them and getting them fixed they shouldn't have them.

And I disagree with you. I've read alot about pitbulls and have read several times that the easiest way to make a pitbull agressive is to chain it outiside and not socialize it. That's not saying that the dog isn't fixable if someone should get a dog like that and rehab it.

Pitbull rescues want people to be able to show the uninformed that they can be great dogs and part of that is not putting them in a situation where they could do something stupid- that any other dog could do but not be blamed for- and end up with more fodder for the news. I hve a friend who's great dane killed a neighbour's small dog. Did it get in the paper? No, but it would have if it had been a pitbull. Geez, you know this, why are you crapping on me?
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Old 12-28-2010, 03:23 PM   #8
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Um, Amykatrina, you should know by now how I feel about pitbulls. I'm also very against chaining a dog out in a yard instead of being responsible and putting up a fence. Also spaying and neutering. If a person doesn't have the time or money to do right by their dog which includes safely fencing them and getting them fixed they shouldn't have them.

And I disagree with you. I've read alot about pitbulls and have read several times that the easiest way to make a pitbull agressive is to chain it outiside and not socialize it. That's not saying that the dog isn't fixable if someone should get a dog like that and rehab it.

Pitbull rescues want people to be able to show the uninformed that they can be great dogs and part of that is not putting them in a situation where they could do something stupid- that any other dog could do but not be blamed for- and end up with more fodder for the news. I hve a friend who's great dane killed a neighbour's small dog. Did it get in the paper? No, but it would have if it had been a pitbull. Geez, you know this, why are you crapping on me?
First off my apologies to the OP, as I am going completely off topic here to respond, I hope you don't mind. NHG, If you aren't in a reading mood I will say that the 3 links I have posted at the bottom are WAY more important to read than what I write. There is a study done from Cornell University that I think is very important for you (and any dog owner) to read through. It is mentioned on page one of the Pit-Bull chat chain debate, and there is also a link to it in the third article I posted. I know you have a Pit Bull, and I know how you 'feel' about them, but there are some very key things that I think you are missing or ignoring about the breed. This debate has nothing to do with spaying/neutering an animal and the responsiblity there so I won't get into that because I'm talking about chaining a dog, not whether or not it's altered (I'm not even sure where that came from? Anyway...)

The fence issue, (the if you are going to have a dog it's only responsible to have a fence for it to stay in and if you don't, you're a bad owner thinking) Yes, I have a fenced yard. It's 5'6 in the front and 6'3 in the back, this is legally as tall as I can have it according to city by-laws. Can my dogs jump or climb a 6'3 fence? YES, easily! And quickly!!! (Well, 2 of them are quick) So, how do you suppose I be more responsible than that?? APBT's are VERY athletic and to be honest, 3 of my dogs can jump/scramble over an 8 foot tall fence, and 2 can climb chainlink as high as you feel like making it (I have seen Lily climb over a 16 foot chainlink fence at a boarding kennel quite happily. When we first got Harlem and didn't have anyone willing to babysit him we left him in the yard one day when we had to go away for the day and couldn't have him in the house in his crate for 14 hours. He jumped out, we got him back. The next time we had to go away all day we left him in an outdoor kennel IN the fenced yard, he broke out of the kennel (by chewing the chainlink and making his mouth bleed but getting it stretched out enough he fit through) and THEN he jumped out, and got away. We got him back again. The next time we had to leave for a 14 hour day we chained him. He had access to water, shade, and a bone. He was still home and safe AND happy when we got back. What I'm trying to say is sometimes chaining a dog up is THE safest way to contain them. He was highly dog aggressive when we first adopted him and it's beyond me how he didn't kill any other dogs on his first 2 escape days and get himself euthanized because of it. That was MY fault for not confining him properly and assuming that a fence or a kennel would be enough. We got lucky we figured it out before he hurt or killed another dog. Now tell me, does that make me a bad owner??

Your "I've read alot about Pit Bulls and have read several times the easiest way to make one aggressive........" comment. I have read several times that Pit Bulls are unpredictable, will likely attack it's loved ones, and will more often than not turn on it's humans and kill them one day!!! Do I believe what I read? No. Does it make any difference to me that there is a TON of places, websites, and news articles that say that? No. Why? Because I know better, I have done my research through REPUTABLE sources. I can find a whack of websites that talk about how mean ALL Pit Bulls are, I can find a whole bunch more that claim reason after reason why they should ALL be banned and euthanized. Does that mean that I believe them? Simply No.

"Pit Bull rescues want people to show the uninformed that they can be great dogs and part of that is not putting them in a situation where they can do something stupid" I couldn't agree more! The problem is that as long as people think their fence or a kennel is enough to keep one of these dogs contained and a chain or tether is bad the more times people are going to have issues. Let's imagine the number of times we've heard of or seen a case where someones dog jumped out, dug out, or SOMEHOW escaped their yard or kennel only to attack fufu down the street and is now on death row because of it? Just think of how that could be avoided if the dog was properly chained or tethered at home because the owner was informed ahead of time that a fence just ISNT ENOUGH. There are alot of breeds that can easily escape your average fence, but like you and I both know, the only breed who is going to get in the spotlight is the Pit Bull. That's why it is even MORE important for the average owner to understand that when set up properly, a chain spot or tether can sometimes be the best form of containment.

A piece of chain can not make a dog aggressive. A 6 x 10 outdoor kennel can not make a dog aggressive. A 30 inch crate sitting in a house with a Pit Bull in it 20 hours a day can not make a dog aggressive. Chains, kennels and crates are not living objects that can influence the behavior of an animal. Being an owner that doesn't train, excersise, or socialize their animal is what makes it aggressive, regardless of where the dog spends all of it's alone time. As I stated earlier, I am not in support of people who put a dog on a chain (or in a kennel or in a crate for that matter) 24/7, or have an APBT to guard or protect something. I am also not in support for people who have multiple dogs that live on their chainspots or in their kennels day in and day out and never get to do anything, however, that is a people issue not a chain or kennel or crate issue.

Here are 3 helpful links, one is just a pamphlet done by an animal rights group. As we all know, there are many different animal rights groups with many different opinions but it's food for thought. The second link is to a forum and a 16 page debate on chaining. The debate started in 2007 and if you have the time to read through you will realize that the OP in that thread feels EXACTLY the way that you do (and she later changes her stance on the whole thing.) The third link is just what I feel is a good point of view from a website that is open and honest about how great these dogs can be, but what true issues they are facing (such as containment, over breeding, and the blue bully movement.) I think all are good reads even if you don't agree with them.

http://www.ncraoa.com/PDF/Tethering/...ingPenning.pdf

http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthre...light=chaining

http://www.pit-bull.org/2009/12/pit-bull-containment/
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Old 12-28-2010, 03:45 PM   #9
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Terriers are great dogs but they need a job. The nice thing about living on a farm is there is plenty of mice to keep them busy as they are high energy. My Cairn looked much like the Norwich and she spent her days in the pasture killing garter snakes and mousing. In winter I'd throw a ball up the driveway which gave us both plenty of exercise.
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Old 12-28-2010, 04:01 PM   #10
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GA laws and chaining...

I just moved from Fulton Cty (Atl and north to Alpharetta) in 2009 and I know there was a law passed that dogs cannot be chained out doors - ATL has a huge fighting problem and it was done to curtail that activity. I don't know if that was statewide or just for that county - but I would check with animal control and see if your neighbors are compliant.

Regarding your Terrier - sorry - I haven't read this entire thread, so if this has been mentioned, never mind - but there are many breed specific rescues. This way your dog can go to someone who knows the breed well and it's needs/training that works best and can he can be placed more effectively.

It's heartbreaking to have to make this decision - my thoughts are with you.
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Old 12-28-2010, 04:28 PM   #11
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I agree that chaining can add to the aggression of a dog - any dog, and esp those that tend that way genetically. Chained in a back yard? Probably not. A dog chained where it can be teased - either on purpose or just the natural teasing that goes on when a dog is back tied and cannot get to something.

That is how drive is trained in Sch and Ring Sport - you back tie, or hold - put a large, thick, wide collar on the dog and "tease" the dog to build drive. It is an accepted training method in protection type sports.

By back tying, the dog is eager to get to what it wants (decoy or toy or child) when the dog is kept from getting to its target, it builds drive. And untrained drive can go the wrong way. Is a chain in itself a bad thing? No of course not. Is chaining a dog where the dog is teased? Yes it is.
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Old 12-28-2010, 05:03 PM   #12
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I agree that chaining can add to the aggression of a dog - any dog, and esp those that tend that way genetically. Chained in a back yard? Probably not. A dog chained where it can be teased - either on purpose or just the natural teasing that goes on when a dog is back tied and cannot get to something.

That is how drive is trained in Sch and Ring Sport - you back tie, or hold - put a large, thick, wide collar on the dog and "tease" the dog to build drive. It is an accepted training method in protection type sports.

By back tying, the dog is eager to get to what it wants (decoy or toy or child) when the dog is kept from getting to its target, it builds drive. And untrained drive can go the wrong way. Is a chain in itself a bad thing? No of course not. Is chaining a dog where the dog is teased? Yes it is.
You raise a very valid point about teasing and back tying! It's something I have personally done with one of my APBT's while doing a little work with a PP trainer. She had always been taught to NOT pull on things so though it took her a while to start pulling and trying to get the decoy she did most definitely catch on with enough of him teasing her with a jute sleeve. She was in an aggitation collar and on a bungee line to start so it would be easier for her to catch on as well.

Though I am one for supporting tethering or chaining (whichever you want to call it) I feel there are responsibilities to go with it. There are places that have limits as to how long a dog can be tethered, that I agree with. There are other places that have no tethering over night, which is okay but I guess there are the handful of people who work nights and it's a bit of a different situation so it's sticky. A major concern with someone using a tether and only that in a yard is that it doesn't stop anything from coming in. This is the same in the case of an electric fence or collar containment system, it may keep the dog in, but it also doesn't stop anything else from coming in and potentially causing problems (this can include other dogs, cats or children who are indeed often the teasing ones.)

I do not tether or outdoor kennel my dogs while I am at work for a couple different personal reasons, for one, it is easier for them to be stolen. If my dogs are in my house they have to get in through the alarm and then un-crate my dogs and get them out without anyone seeing them, and fast enough before the police get there. Any dogs left in a yard (loose, tethered or kenneled) are at a higher risk of being stolen and that's not a risk I am willing to take.

The other reason I don't leave my dogs out (if the chance of theft didn't exist) is that it's pretty chilly here most of the year and I'm a bit of a fur momma when it comes to my animals being too cold. I am always cold and I hate it, so though it is humanizing them a bit I am of the opinion that they are not meant to be outdoor dogs while it's cold out. I know people who have APBTs that stay outside all year and are fine, have a heated dog house and they are way better excersised and in better shape than mine, but I am a big baby when it's cold out and I want my dogs with me. Do I think my dogs would be happier outside on tethers (within a fence of course because that's the set up I have) than inside in crates or each locked in a bedroom every time I leave? Absolutely, but for my own reasons they are kept inside for now. We are building a new house out in the country in the spring and have a kennel set up added into the garage for the dogs. We will try it and for the dogs (one I know for sure) who bust out of that I may very well have to set up a tether and dog house. When we live in the country I can't be running home every 4 hours to let them out of their crates so things may change for them a bit.

Last edited by Amykatrina; 12-28-2010 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 12-28-2010, 05:31 PM   #13
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Here in my area you can take training classes along with the local 4-H kids. There is a small fee, but all the money goes to the local 4-H program. If you want to try to keep your dog that is what I would suggest. The training should be for the owner and the dog both. Hubby and I have had many dogs, most of whom had problems. You might say Hubby and I have been a failure at being a foster family for the local humane society because we have only helped 1 dog find his forever family. The rest we have kept until they went over the rainbow bridge. Sigh…. All I am trying to say are there are many training opportunities if you want to go that way, and there are alternatives as to placement if you don’t. A terrier might not be the right breed for your family. There are so many wonderful dogs out there wanting to find their forever home. One might make the perfect pet for you and your daughter. Please don’t give up.
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Old 12-28-2010, 05:50 PM   #14
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Please try the PetSafe wireless dog fence!!
Worked wonders for my Jack Russel terriers and husky that could not be trusted off leash and would even climb the chain link fence. Took 15 min to train each of them to respect it and understand what it does, and after a day or two they would not even run through the perimeter for toys, dogs or people walking or even a neighbor that walks his cows down the street
They are like completely different dogs, SO much better behaved because they go outside so a lot more now.
I would also recommend trying a remote trainer too. Got my set off of craigslist much cheaper than new, best thing I ever did for my dogs!
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Old 12-29-2010, 07:08 PM   #15
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Thanks everyone for all of your help. I really want to keep the dog since I have really come to love the little guy. He is such a sweetheart but when he gets into the "zone" there is just no getting through to him.
No I don't blame the pit bull for attacking him. At first when he went over there the dogs were fine with him but he got more aggressive so they did too. I DON"T want to do that again! I feel sorry for the dogs as they have little human interaction and they all sleep in some type of plastic barrel with no bedding, shavings or hay. I don't see how they've handled our freezing temps lately. We did complain to the local authorities since they have about 60---yes that is 6 0--fighting roosters in their back yard. You could just imagine what they were doing with the pits. We've not seen the pits leave the yard since we moved in so I don't think they are fighting them. This is a beautiful road to live on with nothing but well taken care of farms along the way. Nothing fancy just folks that take pride in where they live. EXCEPT for this one house. Several people have stopped to complain to us but are afraid to complain to the authorities.
I'm looking into the wireless fencing that one poster talked about since that would give him some discipline and the ability to roam the yard. Our other two dogs always stay in the yard and we have no problems with them.
Thanks for all the help and yes, he will be getting neutered.
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