Getting him to lower his head?

iris_surreal_euphoria · 08-30-2008, 12:19 PM

Hi everyone

I was hoping maybe you would have some advice for me.

We have a six year old solid paint gelding. He's a good trail horse.. totes beginners around and has a gentle nature.

His problem is he wants to keep his head up! Not stargazing or anything, he just likes to keep it pretty high especailly when he jogs. I wouldn't mind it but when he's got that head up, he's unbalanced and I can tell he isn't paying enough attention to his rider. After he rides for a while he will usually drop it and travel much better but ask for a faster gait and it's back up again.

I have gone back to working him on the ground to get him more responsive and balanced. I have been lunging him and it is the same thing on the line- his head drops but when he picks it up he raises it so it isn't a riders hands causing it unless he has just learned it from years of beginner riders. (he came from a riding stable not very well cared for)

When we ride him we ride him in a little s hackamore if that helps. Also his teeth are up to date.

Looking at his build, I can imagine it takes MORE muscle to put his head high than to travel with his neck more level with his top line. He's APHA with a really long back so when his head goes up ihis back really hollows.

My question.. what are some ground exercises to get him to relax and lower his head and get into work mode? How about exercises in the saddle?

Thanks!

wollenberg6 · 08-30-2008, 12:24 PM

We use a bungee cord while lunging at first and then riding. It has 2 snaps that hook on each side of the bit and then underneath the saddle where a breast band attaches on the girth. It really helps them to learn to give to pressure and keep their heads lower.

A J · 08-30-2008, 12:31 PM

The first thing I'd probably try not really knowing the horse is asking and rewarding a slight dropping of his head. Lunging and in the saddle, push him forward into the bridle and be careful not to pull his head down. Reward even a slight movement in the right direction by releasing pressure. Eventually you can ask for more and longer responses. Once he understands the proper way to carry himself, giving to the bit, and has the muscles built up for more sustained carriage in that position, you can expect him to hold that position.

It could very well be a response from being used as a lesson horse - lots of beginners bouncing on his back and hanging on his face over the years could easily explain why he's doing this. Some time with more knowledgable (ie better) riders may help with him realizing it won't always happen.

Lots of "long and low" work to help him relax and stretch out. Most horses really enjoy that once they've learned how to do it.

vetjeanne · 08-30-2008, 12:40 PM

When lunging him I would use a heavy nose band tied between his legs helps break the poll and give without pressure on his mouth. when riding with a direct bit use slight pressure till he gives then release. Once the horse learns to give pick up the reins and release when he lowers his head , he will to escape the pressure. Clinton Anderson does a great demostration of this on his shows.

Slim Pikkens · 08-30-2008, 09:25 PM

I find working a horse back and forth on the rail gets it to lower it's head. It also puts their back end under them. Try staying about 6' off the rail and asking for a trot. As the head comes up, immediately turn toward the rail to reverse direction. He may stop because of the rail but continue turning him until he's straight and ask for a trot again, moving away from the rail. Continue working the rail back and forth and when you feel him relaxing and more comfortable put him away (his big reward). Try to do this two or three days in a row. You may only have to reverse a few times. This can also teach a horse to regulate his gait.

EquineAlberta · 08-30-2008, 10:11 PM

it sounds like it could be a response to back pain or nervousness of the rider's hands. Both issues would diminish as he works (as muscles warm or as he realizes his rider is ok).

Doing stretches with his neck/back before he is warmed up to see if there are limitations to how much he can stretch down, or left/right will help you know if it is soreness. Having a chiropractor assess him may also help.

If he is nervous about past riding, then it will take time and patience to correct him.

I worry about forcing his head down with a tie down, or bungee as they often create a fake headset and can lead to further tension and damage to the horse's back.

I agree with Slim and AJ (I think slim is talking about reverse half circles), and also think doing poles might help get him to stretch. Sometimes doing lateral work such as shoulder in and leg yeilding can build the correct muscles and encourage more stretch once done.

Karen

reiningfan · 08-31-2008, 12:02 AM

I would definately not use a tie down on him. Unless you cranked it right down, it wouldn't affect his head carriage, which would be artificial and wrong and it has no release. Plus it may cause all sorts of other problems, including the possibility of rearing.
I like just asking for some collection by putting my legs on and using a slight, but steady pressure on the reins. When the horse gives, so do you. Remember, a horse learns on the release. I would reward the slightest bit of give.
I like AJ, Slim & EA's ideas.

iris_surreal_euphoria · 08-31-2008, 12:04 AM

I've checked his back for sore spots and haven't found anything worrisome. Hopefully we will have an equine chiro in here soon... it's a matter of finding one and getting them to travel.

But as far as tie downs and the like... errr.... nothing against them, i just don't think they will help in this case. When we first got him I did use a tie down b/c he used to be alot worse and if you didn't put that tie on him you might get knocked in the face with this head (he had bit issues at that time that have now been resolved) he doesn't toss his head now just holds it high. It's been about a half year since we have rode with the tiedown.

MatchMaker · 08-31-2008, 09:11 AM

Ruling out pain and rider issues:
possibly start bending him into transitions. Leg yield him into a jog,lope. Insist the head stays down and bent. If he raises his head when you go to ask for the transition don't start jogging. Bring him right back and flex his head hard to the inside, keep the tension on the inside rein, flexible but present, and ask again. Assuming he has basic balance and no muscle/joint issues, he should learn that his head must remain down during transitions.

Then again, I'm not there so this could fail completely. That's my disclaimer.

vetjeanne · 08-31-2008, 02:23 PM

When you are lunging him with a rawhide or rope nose band don't use a rope tie down as his nose hits thee rawhide he will find his own release. this helps to flex at the poll and develop muscles needed to carry his head better. As he learns to give more freely in the poll it will be easier to get the release in the bit.

PaintsQH · 08-31-2008, 03:20 PM

I dont recall seeing Clinton Anderson using a tie down. Must have missed that show. I also dont think tie downs, draw reins or artificial aids are the right way to train a horse. Yes, they can be effective on a horse who is already trained and you need something like a small spur to refine or get the message across to a reluctant horse, but they can also make a horse dull. My gelding was proof of that. Didnt need spurs at all, but was nagged with them by a trainer and he would not budge without them. Took several months and alot of $$ at another trainer to fix that problem. A horse can learn to carry his head lower naturally and not fake or forced. Ive seen so many people at shows school in a martingale or draw reins and then expect the horse to have a perfect headset when they enter the show ring. I also believe that forcing a horse to keep his head low can cause back or neck problems if he tries to jerk his head up or he can also freak out by feeling trapped. JMO

vetjeanne · 08-31-2008, 06:43 PM

Like any tool it how you use it . In golf people use a fan club to develop a better swing. Many sports use different training aids to improve their abilities. darw reins ,german martingales,even spurs, it how you apply them that determine if they work or not. Never said Clinton was the only trainer I 've watched.

PaintsQH · 08-31-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vetjeanne

When lunging him I would use a heavy nose band tied between his legs helps break the poll and give without pressure on his mouth. when riding with a direct bit use slight pressure till he gives then release. Once the horse learns to give pick up the reins and release when he lowers his head , he will to escape the pressure. Clinton Anderson does a great demostration of this on his shows.

Umm... Did I miss something? You say it right here. Clinton Anderson does a great demonstration of this on his shows.

As far as aid's, yes they are helpfull to fine tune, but not to force a headset on a horse before finding out why there is a problem in the first place, correct?

vetjeanne · 09-01-2008, 12:02 PM

I sorry about being unclear in my post the last sentence referrs to bit release of flexon of the poll "Clinton Anderson". I don't agree that training aids should only be used in fine tuneing a horse. A horse that already understands want I want doesn't need aid. A young horse which is still confused I want to make the right choice easy and the wrong choice hard. So by lunging a horse in a nose band which is set to prevent him from fliping his head up allows him to find a release point without pulling on his mouth.jmo

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08-30-2008, 12:19 PM
iris_surreal_euphoria Long Yearling Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somerset, Kentucky Posts: 1,073	Getting him to lower his head? Hi everyone I was hoping maybe you would have some advice for me. We have a six year old solid paint gelding. He's a good trail horse.. totes beginners around and has a gentle nature. His problem is he wants to keep his head up! Not stargazing or anything, he just likes to keep it pretty high especailly when he jogs. I wouldn't mind it but when he's got that head up, he's unbalanced and I can tell he isn't paying enough attention to his rider. After he rides for a while he will usually drop it and travel much better but ask for a faster gait and it's back up again. I have gone back to working him on the ground to get him more responsive and balanced. I have been lunging him and it is the same thing on the line- his head drops but when he picks it up he raises it so it isn't a riders hands causing it unless he has just learned it from years of beginner riders. (he came from a riding stable not very well cared for) When we ride him we ride him in a little s hackamore if that helps. Also his teeth are up to date. Looking at his build, I can imagine it takes MORE muscle to put his head high than to travel with his neck more level with his top line. He's APHA with a really long back so when his head goes up ihis back really hollows. My question.. what are some ground exercises to get him to relax and lower his head and get into work mode? How about exercises in the saddle? Thanks! __________________ If wishes were horses this room would need a good mucking! Visit our website: http://www.freewebs.com/lazziassacres/

08-30-2008, 12:24 PM
wollenberg6 Weanling Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Alma, Ks Posts: 486	We use a bungee cord while lunging at first and then riding. It has 2 snaps that hook on each side of the bit and then underneath the saddle where a breast band attaches on the girth. It really helps them to learn to give to pressure and keep their heads lower. __________________

08-30-2008, 12:31 PM
A J Greenbroke Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vallejo, CA Posts: 3,356	The first thing I'd probably try not really knowing the horse is asking and rewarding a slight dropping of his head. Lunging and in the saddle, push him forward into the bridle and be careful not to pull his head down. Reward even a slight movement in the right direction by releasing pressure. Eventually you can ask for more and longer responses. Once he understands the proper way to carry himself, giving to the bit, and has the muscles built up for more sustained carriage in that position, you can expect him to hold that position. It could very well be a response from being used as a lesson horse - lots of beginners bouncing on his back and hanging on his face over the years could easily explain why he's doing this. Some time with more knowledgable (ie better) riders may help with him realizing it won't always happen. Lots of "long and low" work to help him relax and stretch out. Most horses really enjoy that once they've learned how to do it. __________________ Try not, do. Do or do not. There is no try.

08-30-2008, 12:40 PM
vetjeanne Halter broke Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: arkansas Posts: 55	When lunging him I would use a heavy nose band tied between his legs helps break the poll and give without pressure on his mouth. when riding with a direct bit use slight pressure till he gives then release. Once the horse learns to give pick up the reins and release when he lowers his head , he will to escape the pressure. Clinton Anderson does a great demostration of this on his shows. __________________ I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills... www.arkyhorse.com

08-30-2008, 09:25 PM
Slim Pikkens Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,948	I find working a horse back and forth on the rail gets it to lower it's head. It also puts their back end under them. Try staying about 6' off the rail and asking for a trot. As the head comes up, immediately turn toward the rail to reverse direction. He may stop because of the rail but continue turning him until he's straight and ask for a trot again, moving away from the rail. Continue working the rail back and forth and when you feel him relaxing and more comfortable put him away (his big reward). Try to do this two or three days in a row. You may only have to reverse a few times. This can also teach a horse to regulate his gait.

08-30-2008, 10:11 PM
EquineAlberta Seasoned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 4,470	it sounds like it could be a response to back pain or nervousness of the rider's hands. Both issues would diminish as he works (as muscles warm or as he realizes his rider is ok). Doing stretches with his neck/back before he is warmed up to see if there are limitations to how much he can stretch down, or left/right will help you know if it is soreness. Having a chiropractor assess him may also help. If he is nervous about past riding, then it will take time and patience to correct him. I worry about forcing his head down with a tie down, or bungee as they often create a fake headset and can lead to further tension and damage to the horse's back. I agree with Slim and AJ (I think slim is talking about reverse half circles), and also think doing poles might help get him to stretch. Sometimes doing lateral work such as shoulder in and leg yeilding can build the correct muscles and encourage more stretch once done. Karen __________________ Hillside Stable, Ardrossan, AB Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...is it really that hard?

08-31-2008, 12:02 AM
reiningfan Yearling Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Western Manitoba, Canada Posts: 516	I would definately not use a tie down on him. Unless you cranked it right down, it wouldn't affect his head carriage, which would be artificial and wrong and it has no release. Plus it may cause all sorts of other problems, including the possibility of rearing. I like just asking for some collection by putting my legs on and using a slight, but steady pressure on the reins. When the horse gives, so do you. Remember, a horse learns on the release. I would reward the slightest bit of give. I like AJ, Slim & EA's ideas.

08-31-2008, 12:04 AM
iris_surreal_euphoria Long Yearling Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somerset, Kentucky Posts: 1,073	I've checked his back for sore spots and haven't found anything worrisome. Hopefully we will have an equine chiro in here soon... it's a matter of finding one and getting them to travel. But as far as tie downs and the like... errr.... nothing against them, i just don't think they will help in this case. When we first got him I did use a tie down b/c he used to be alot worse and if you didn't put that tie on him you might get knocked in the face with this head (he had bit issues at that time that have now been resolved) he doesn't toss his head now just holds it high. It's been about a half year since we have rode with the tiedown. __________________ If wishes were horses this room would need a good mucking! Visit our website: http://www.freewebs.com/lazziassacres/

08-31-2008, 09:11 AM
MatchMaker Halter broke Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 178	Ruling out pain and rider issues: possibly start bending him into transitions. Leg yield him into a jog,lope. Insist the head stays down and bent. If he raises his head when you go to ask for the transition don't start jogging. Bring him right back and flex his head hard to the inside, keep the tension on the inside rein, flexible but present, and ask again. Assuming he has basic balance and no muscle/joint issues, he should learn that his head must remain down during transitions. Then again, I'm not there so this could fail completely. That's my disclaimer.

08-31-2008, 02:23 PM
vetjeanne Halter broke Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: arkansas Posts: 55	When you are lunging him with a rawhide or rope nose band don't use a rope tie down as his nose hits thee rawhide he will find his own release. this helps to flex at the poll and develop muscles needed to carry his head better. As he learns to give more freely in the poll it will be easier to get the release in the bit. __________________ I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills... www.arkyhorse.com

08-31-2008, 03:20 PM
PaintsQH Started Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,442	I dont recall seeing Clinton Anderson using a tie down. Must have missed that show. I also dont think tie downs, draw reins or artificial aids are the right way to train a horse. Yes, they can be effective on a horse who is already trained and you need something like a small spur to refine or get the message across to a reluctant horse, but they can also make a horse dull. My gelding was proof of that. Didnt need spurs at all, but was nagged with them by a trainer and he would not budge without them. Took several months and alot of $$ at another trainer to fix that problem. A horse can learn to carry his head lower naturally and not fake or forced. Ive seen so many people at shows school in a martingale or draw reins and then expect the horse to have a perfect headset when they enter the show ring. I also believe that forcing a horse to keep his head low can cause back or neck problems if he tries to jerk his head up or he can also freak out by feeling trapped. JMO __________________ My treasures do not clink, they gleam in the sunlight and neigh in the night

08-31-2008, 06:43 PM
vetjeanne Halter broke Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: arkansas Posts: 55	Like any tool it how you use it . In golf people use a fan club to develop a better swing. Many sports use different training aids to improve their abilities. darw reins ,german martingales,even spurs, it how you apply them that determine if they work or not. Never said Clinton was the only trainer I 've watched. __________________ I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills... www.arkyhorse.com

09-01-2008, 12:02 PM
vetjeanne Halter broke Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: arkansas Posts: 55	I sorry about being unclear in my post the last sentence referrs to bit release of flexon of the poll "Clinton Anderson". I don't agree that training aids should only be used in fine tuneing a horse. A horse that already understands want I want doesn't need aid. A young horse which is still confused I want to make the right choice easy and the wrong choice hard. So by lunging a horse in a nose band which is set to prevent him from fliping his head up allows him to find a release point without pulling on his mouth.jmo __________________ I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills... www.arkyhorse.com