Bucking problem -HELP!

[Maybelline2005]

Ok, I will try to keep this as short as possible.

I have a 3 year old draft-X filly. About 15.2h, great ground manners, really sweet, loves water, very LAZY! Sent her to the trainer for 30 days, about 15 days in she recommended another 30 (that's fine, great actually). Well, about the beginning of the second month, we tried to make "appointments" to get out there to see her at least work the horse. It was EXCUSE after EXCUSE after EXCUSE (I considered getting out there and removing the horse)...but she is a "good talker" I guess. Well, a few days before the horse was scheduled to leave, we finally got out there to watch her work the horse. When we got there she was already in the pen,and she ran her around for a good 15 minutes, then had me come in and do it for another 10 minutes until I just stopped. The horse could barely breathe (have no idea how long she'd done anything with her before I got there). So, she gets her "partner" up there and hops up no problem, asks her to move, she won't move forward. He is up there just kicking away and the look on the horse's face doesn't change. He'll get her to go a couple of steps, but that's it. Then, she gets up there and it is the same thing, just kicking away and the horse doesn't respond at all. Finally I said, she is exhausted, let's just leave it for now, and asked her if she was always like this. She said she is always "lazy" but never quite this bad. Instead of leaving the horse for the extra 3 days she was supposed to be there, I went and got her.

So, she settles back in, her ground manners had improved so at least I know she did something. Saddled her up, she did fine, got up, and she would NOT move forward. I might get a couple steps out of her and when I would attempt to steer here she'd fit the bit/chew it and stop.

Second attempt: Same problem, I use the reins to give her a little "encouragement." She will tense and start to lunge forward like she is going to take off trotting so I have to stop her (bad mixed signals, I realize).

Third attempt (Stupid, STUPID me) I try a mild spur. First time I touch her she pins her ears but doesn't move, next time she does a little "buck" letting me know that isn't going to work. I try to squeeze again (with my legs, not the spurs and she bucks again). I freak out so get off and lunge her.

Final attempt: I get up there, no spurs, try to ask her to move and she bucks right away, this time "two in a row"-not take off bucking bronco style but this time with more anger. I sit that one out and try again but the same thing. Now I am officially scared so get off her and lunge again.

We'd had her ad online for sale and I had a nice lady come out to meet her (she follows parelli, I will tell you by the time she left, the horse had bitten her (frusterated that she didn't have any food, I guess) and went to half cow-kick her)-both things I've NEVER seen her do before. Not sure what the lady did to her!

Anyway- I did tell her what had happened with the bucking and that she was welcome to try and sit on her while I walked her (I didn't think this would be a problem...) well it was, she'd barely had her leg over (bareback) and she was already starting to get irratated and "half-buck."

I'm at a loss now. There's no way I'm getting up on her again. She's such a reasonable horse, I'm not sure if it has something to do with her training and her being a brat (And I feel absolutely stupid for sending her to this trainer, I'm an idiot, I admit it!) or if there is something wrong (saddle fit, back problems, etc). The saddle fits very well from what I can tell. I've gone down her spine and she's not flinched at anything.

What do you guys think the problem is? Do you think she is just being lazy and unreasonable, or do you think the problem is mine? Or a back problem, etc? I had hoped she would work out as a riding horse for me, but to be completely honest I don't have the confidence or time/experience to work with her like I would need to. She is a lovely cross, I think she would do well, once someone got her going in dressage/light jumping/etc.

Now I have to paid ads online and I'm not sure what to say in the ads, what to tell people (Obviously I am going to tell them the truth, but I don't want to scare them off first thing without explaining). I think I would have had a better chance of selling her as an unbroke prospect than a now "problem horse," which I really hate to call her that because I don't think she is, I just don't have the time or resources to work consistantly with her.

Sorry for the novel, hopefully some of it made some sense and someone will have some suggestions.

Thanks!

[lelo2006]

Sounds like the trainer might not of known what they were doing and made the problem worse. You maybe should of taken her out of there sooner. I know it's not your fault, we all hope the person that we send our horses to konws what they are doing but sometimes you can get real idiots working them. Maybe try taking her to a different trainer, other then that you might have to sell and just tell the truth about the fact that she does buck and will probably need to be started from scratch.

[AlbertaGirl]

Honestly, I'd pull the ads immediately, or seriously alter them, since I'm sure they were written thinking she was at least greenbroke. I don't think you should sell her as unstarted, well unless you quite clearly tell the rest of the story as well...

From the sounds of it, I think the problem was the "trainer"! It really sounds like the time you went there and saw them lunging and lunging her, then the partner got on, then she (the "trainer") did, may have been the first time the "trainer" was ever on her . Can you possibly send her to someone else, or even have an assessment done by another trainer? What a mess !

[BabyMay]

I think someone, really messed up the horse. I don't think the trainer knew what they were doing. I would ask around about another trainer and have the horse evaluated. Poor thing, sounds like she is confused and scared to me.

[Maybelline2005]

Thanks guys. I feel terrible, I had some excellent references from this girl, talked to her several times, but that was about it. I should have put up the red flag the first couple of times she had to cancel an appointment due to "emergencies." If all her excuses were legitimate, I don't know when she would have had the time to work with ANY horses. (which I highly doubt they will). Now she's offering to come out and work with her, and we are already starting with the run around, I'm sick of dealing with her and am sooooooo angry and frusterated. I blame myself though, I should have done some more research/not put so much trust into someone.

This is a wonderful mare, we love her dearly, she has all the potential in the world. Now after shelling out $1200+ on her training, I have a horse with a problem. There is NO reason this should have turned into a problem. I had high hopes of her being a great trail horse for me, but at this point I unfortunately don't have the time or energy to work with her consistently as I should. (I say energy, only based on the fact that she has this "problem" now) my confidence isn't what it used to be, and I can deal with a horse that doesn't know everything, I would enjoy that, but when you can't get a horse to move, and when she does she bucks (it was nothing crazy, but letting me know she was irratated) I just can't deal with that.

Yeah, I will pull her ad or re-word it suggesting she needs to be "restarted." I have the name of another recommended trainer who I am going to give a call to shortly, unfortunately after her last 2 months at training and hay time here already, I don't have any extra $ laying around. I guess I'll do what I have to do...

Thanks again

[Maybelline2005]

Originally Posted by AlbertaGirl

Honestly, I'd pull the ads immediately, or seriously alter them, since I'm sure they were written thinking she was at least greenbroke. I don't think you should sell her as unstarted, well unless you quite clearly tell the rest of the story as well...

From the sounds of it, I think the problem was the "trainer"! It really sounds like the time you went there and saw them lunging and lunging her, then the partner got on, then she (the "trainer") did, may have been the first time the "trainer" was ever on her . Can you possibly send her to someone else, or even have an assessment done by another trainer? What a mess !

Oh- Alberta girl...I just wanted to make it clear that I would never lie, or bend the truth about one of my horses. The only way she would leave here is if the person knew everything, and was capable and willing to work with her. (these horses ARE part of the family, and I only want the best for her, which is why I considered selling her in the first place).

I don't think you were suggesting that at all, just wanted to make it clear

[Lwynn]

Wow do I sympathize with you. I have had a very similar situation happen to me this summer, unanswered calls, etc. Finally left a message that I was coming out to pick the horse up. She called back saying he has bucked her off and wants to keep him a bit longer. Long story short got him home, very under weight, and she said he still bucks. She has now scared me enough that I don't want to get on him.

[Chevychic26]

Where do you live? Maybe someone on here could give you some pointers on where to turn for help. I don't think she would be that hard to 'restart', but I would keep the 'trainer' away from her. Is it possible that she is bucking because she knows she will get out of working? I had a horse that was incredibly lazy. She would get angry if I longed her for too long and then got on. I started longing for 5 minutes at a trot, then getting on her. Five minutes was enough to get her freshness out, but not exhaust her to the point of anger.

JMO but I don't think she is a lost cause.

[dodib]

Sorry you are going through this sounds liek the trainer really screwed her up. I think maybe you should have the vet out to check her--maybe her back his hurting her or something
I hope you get the help you need to figure her out

[Sunlei]

Maybe the "trainer" did not ride the horse at all, just took your money. I'd find another trainer and really get the horse trained.

There are trainers that you can be there anytime you want, they update you, they send you vids of the progress. Some trainers will come to your house.

Good that you stopped the "exaustion" type " training," and be carefull. Can really be hurt with a horse that goes off like a fire cracker.

Here's a few of Paul Williamsons vids. He came to America last month to enter a colt starting contest. He was assigned this young filly that sure looked like it was a fire cracker with someone before they gave it to him. It didn't move either...be good to watch how he dealt with it to get it to move.
no he didn't win, the judges removed 10 points from him because he "got on it's back to soon" but he still won anyways with his fan club.

part 1-you think this filly was never tried before?-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ2q8...eature=related

part 3, ok she won't move-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et0zuPxhay4

part 4 I do not want to move-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvjEwiSIa7w

worth watching , Paul has posted the entire contest and he talks the entire time about patience and horses that do not move. He was under a one hour time restriction, so you can have much more patience and take your time time if you want.

[AlbertaGirl]

Originally Posted by Maybelline2005

Oh- Alberta girl...I just wanted to make it clear that I would never lie, or bend the truth about one of my horses. The only way she would leave here is if the person knew everything, and was capable and willing to work with her. (these horses ARE part of the family, and I only want the best for her, which is why I considered selling her in the first place).

I don't think you were suggesting that at all, just wanted to make it clear

That's good, that's what I've always tried my very best to do too! Honesty is the best policy . It's really nice never having to deal with taking one back because the buyers were told everything to the best of your knowledge, so they know what they're getting. And also getting great updates on horses you've sold - that's a nice feeling !

I wasn't accusing you of anything, but wasn't quite clear on what you meant by "selling her as an unbroke prospect, rather than a problem horse", so thanks for clarifying. I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this, and hope something can be figured out - good luck!

[EquineAlberta]

Poor horse. I am guessing you are right in that the "trainer" just didn't have time to properly work with her, and tried to throw it together for you last minute. Likely they rode the horse without proper preliminary ground work and confused the heck out her. Maybe she bucked so they figured if they exhausted her that would cure that, but your mare was just so confused/discouraged she shut down and decided to tune them out and not move.

I don't think she is beyond help nor is she a problem horse, you just need to go back to sqare one. Start again with lunging and ground driving. Don't punish her, instead try to show her that learning can be fun.

I definately wouldn't let anyone get on her if they come look at her.

Be honest with prospective buyers; you paid for training that apparently didn't happen due to unforseen circumstances with the trainer. Change the ads to say ground work done and lightly backed.

Good Luck. I am sorry for you and your horse.
Karen

[Valleygirl]

I feel so bad for both you and your horse. I agree that you should start back at square one with the groundwork and take things slowly. It will take a while to regain both the trust and the confidence. If selling is the only option, I hope you can find someone that has the heart and the patience to work with her. Good Luck.

[lbequ4002]

Please be careful. Unfortunately I've heard of this in some draftxs. I love them but every once in a while you get an extra stubborn horse. It sounds like she has absolutely no work ethic. My mother bought an "unbroke" 4 year old drop dead gorgeous friesian/draftx last year and he broke her back and her neck. He seemed so nice on the ground and I got on him first and walked him around not a blink. She had about 20 rides on him and found he really didn't have much of a work ethic. When she finally felt comfortable enough to canter he started bronc bucking and she stuck to 3 and on number four hit her back on the board fencing. She thought maybe it was a fluke and sent him to a 2 different trainers both with good reputations. Both couldn't even get on his back. He figured out all he had to do was buck and he would start before they were even in the saddle. I would hate for someone to get hurt. My mom gave this horse to the Amish so that he would have to work every day of his life but never be ridden.

[A J]

Some horses really do lack a work ethic, but most of the time it's a matter of them realizing that your definition of "work" is easier than not working - although that often requires someone who has a great feel for timing and knows why they are doing something.

There are those rare cases, however, where the horse is just plain old lazy and will do anything to get out of work, including getting mean - I have only met one like that, but he would get dangerous (not just buck or even rear, but charging with teeth bared type of behavior) when pushed beyond what he wanted to do.

So, in reality, it could be a couple things - could be the trainer really did mess up your horse. It could also be that your horse just plain old doesn't want to be ridden and will do whatever she needs to not to be. The horse above was fine with the rest of his ground work unless asked to canter longer than he felt like (far from being tired) - didn't mind much of anything else, but was a bear when it came to working.

Although I would most likely guess the trainer (or their training methods) were to blame, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that you may have "one of those" horses, too.

[Maybelline2005]

Originally Posted by AlbertaGirl

That's good, that's what I've always tried my very best to do too! Honesty is the best policy . It's really nice never having to deal with taking one back because the buyers were told everything to the best of your knowledge, so they know what they're getting. And also getting great updates on horses you've sold - that's a nice feeling !

I wasn't accusing you of anything, but wasn't quite clear on what you meant by "selling her as an unbroke prospect, rather than a problem horse", so thanks for clarifying. I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this, and hope something can be figured out - good luck!

Oh!! Just one more clear up What I meant by that statement is it probably would have been better to HAVE sold her as an unbroke prospect (before I ever did the training)...I didn't mean I was going to list her as an unbroke prospect, I just meant before that is what she was, now that she has had some training (if that's what you want to call it- saddle time I guess) it's a different story.

[Slim Pikkens]

From what I'm reading this horse is completely confused. Kicking does nothing to motivate a horse to go forward. A tap on the top of the rump is a clearer message. But too often when the horse moves forward with a bit of a start the rider grabs the reins which stops the horse. More confusion. I'd go and ask for a good deal of my money back unless they can show you what training was done. She should be doing a relaxed walk, trot and canter. I hope you had a contract.

[XtendedTrot]

It's most likely a combination of things: problem is that you don't know what happened those days at training since the woman made up excuses why you couldn't come out. That is a huge red flag! I'm not blaming you though Horses act out when they are 1-scarred 2-uncomfortable. I would have another "qualified trainer" evaluate your horse. Get some references from the trainer and ask for some prior success stores. Explain to the new trainer what took place last time and see that the trainer of your choice could come to you. This way you know what's taking place. FYI everyone nowadays is a self-proclaimed trainer and that's the problem. Don't blame youself here.

[vetjeanne]

Trainer worked the horse for 60 days but it was breathing very hard after 20 minutes of round pen. Sounds like the horse was tied to the fence with a saddle on it back for 55 days. How many horses did the trainer have in training at the time.

[AlbertaGirl]

Originally Posted by Maybelline2005

Oh!! Just one more clear up What I meant by that statement is it probably would have been better to HAVE sold her as an unbroke prospect (before I ever did the training)...I didn't mean I was going to list her as an unbroke prospect, I just meant before that is what she was, now that she has had some training (if that's what you want to call it- saddle time I guess) it's a different story.

Okay, gotcha - that makes perfect sense ! Don't you just love trying to type out your thoughts, and having them misread?! Oh, the joys of text !