Retraining a western horse to go english

[EquineAlberta]

I have a very atheltic gelding in to be retrained english and sold. He is 8 years old, had his teeth done in the last 30 days, and is reasonibly fit. I did not see him ridden before he came as he came from a remote part of the province about 5 hours away. He was originally a ranch horse, who was then bought by his current owner who tried to make him a WP horse. He IS not suited to that type of training though, so it didn't go well. Now I am trying to get him over his past "training" and get him going english as he jumps very well, however his past training has left him with a lot of hang ups that I am hoping you guys can help me get him past. I am thinking someone who understands western might be able to help me understand where this guy is coming from.

1) WHen he gets confused he stops and starts to back slowly with his chin to his chest. I know that western riders often do that to teach a horse to collect a and so I am assuming someone did this with him a lot when he got quick, so now he associates his getting quick/nervous with having to back up.
2) Sometimes reacts to leg reasonibly, but sometimes he acts as though my legs are sending him electric jolts. He is really having trouble relaxing about leg aids. I am using voice aids before the leg to help him out and warn him the leg is coming. He is fine about leg at the walk.
3) Has no clue where to put his head and won't just relax about it. I am riding him an Happy Mouth double jointed snaffle and he is so worried about the bit that he sucks behind it and then flips his head up, then down, then out...he just won't reach into the contact other than at walk. I am sure he was previously ridden in a curb, a tie down, training fork, draw reins and who knows what else. I am sure he is just afraid of the bit. If I lunge him in side reins he just sucks behind the bit. I try to keep my hands as quiet as possible and just follow his head wherever it goes.
4) Swaps leads a lot when cantering. Normally I would fix this by shoulder in, but because of issues 1, 2 and 3, I can't do shoulder in with him at this point.
5) This is getting better, but when I first started riding him his gaits were all jerky and sometimes even pacey as he seemed afraid to go forward at his natural pace, so he would go two steps forward, then suck back for a few, then go, then suck back...now he is better, but still gets worried that I am going to ask him to jog and will get into a weird slow pace with his chin sucked in.
6) Gets nervous on a loose rein when we do our walk breaks. Much more relaxed with some contact. I am thinking he likes knowing where my hands are.
7) Neck reins too well. It is like the reins are zapping him. I am worried I confuse him when I use an opening rein. (he neckreins into an opening rein, and/OR away from a closed rein, and it doesn't require leg).

Any thoughts on how I can help him to relax into being an english horse would be much appreciated. This guy has a very good jumping form and I am sure he will make someone a fancy jumper if I can resolve at least some of these issues.

Karen

[Range]

Oh, poor guy. I'd bet a lot of the issues are from the WP attempt. The things some people will do to get headset and not actual collection.

1) WHen he gets confused he stops and starts to back slowly with his chin to his chest. I know that western riders often do that to teach a horse to collect a and so I am assuming someone did this with him a lot when he got quick, so now he associates his getting quick/nervous with having to back up.

Yes, one of the big training techniques in WP and in ranch work is to back up with chin to the chest. In WP training, when the horse gets too quick, halt and back up is the re-set option. It's possible he was a roper as well and that is a necessary reaction when a cow has been roped and dallied and in tie down. You may just have to continue to ride him through this and let him figure out it's okay to get nervous and quick. Keep pushing him forward, maybe do circles and serpentines to keep his mind occupied elsewhere.

2) Sometimes reacts to leg reasonibly, but sometimes he acts as though my legs are sending him electric jolts. He is really having trouble relaxing about leg aids. I am using voice aids before the leg to help him out and warn him the leg is coming. He is fine about leg at the walk.

This is possibly from the increased contact he feels in the English saddle. There's a lot of leather between the leg and the horse in Western, which is why spur cueing is so big. One of the biggest problems I have with my gelding when I ride English and bareback is his over-sensitivity to my leg with the greater contact. He's not at all sensitive in the Western gear. Once again, you are just going to have to ride him through it, you may have to desensitize him to leg before you re-sensitize him. Let him know the leg isn't going to kill him, just cue him.

3) Has no clue where to put his head and won't just relax about it. I am riding him an Happy Mouth double jointed snaffle and he is so worried about the bit that he sucks behind it and then flips his head up, then down, then out...he just won't reach into the contact other than at walk. I am sure he was previously ridden in a curb, a tie down, training fork, draw reins and who knows what else. I am sure he is just afraid of the bit. If I lunge him in side reins he just sucks behind the bit. I try to keep my hands as quiet as possible and just follow his head wherever it goes.

He probably has no idea how to understand the snaffle action. There is a totally different contact with a Western curb. Collection in the Western horse, in my experience, doesn't come from pushing the horse into the bit, but getting them to carry their rears up underneath them. He just doesn't "get" it. I don't know how to get past this except for miles in the snaffle.

4) Swaps leads a lot when cantering. Normally I would fix this by shoulder in, but because of issues 1, 2 and 3, I can't do shoulder in with him at this point.

This surprises me if he received WP training. Unless they didn't get to the lope. However, as a ranch horse...doesn't surprise me in the slightest. He swaps to whatever is comfortable and less tiring for him. He has little to no practice maintaining his balance and stamina on one lead. You will have to treat him like a greenie on this. For the mare I had that did ranch work/roping and didn't understand leads at all, I round penned her every day until she learned that it was easier on her to maintain the inside lead. She finally learned that the inside lead helped her maintain her balance and then was able to move on to loping with a rider.

5) This is getting better, but when I first started riding him his gaits were all jerky and sometimes even pacey as he seemed afraid to go forward at his natural pace, so he would go two steps forward, then suck back for a few, then go, then suck back...now he is better, but still gets worried that I am going to ask him to jog and will get into a weird slow pace with his chin sucked in.

Bad WP training, bad, bad, bad. Push him into an extended trot and then let him relax back into working. Any time he feels like he's sucking back, press him back up to the extended trot. You can also let him travel on a looser rein and just let him go where he wants and his natural gait and let him just relax.

6) Gets nervous on a loose rein when we do our walk breaks. Much more relaxed with some contact. I am thinking he likes knowing where my hands are.

That, and he's a little concerned about what you're going to ask him to do next. He's getting himself prepared. I'm surprised he wants the contact. Since you're going to be riding with contact, I don't think it hurts for him to have what he wants right now. When he trusts the bit and your hands, he'll most likely relax with this.

7) Neck reins too well. It is like the reins are zapping him. I am worried I confuse him when I use an opening rein. (he neckreins into an opening rein, and/OR away from a closed rein, and it doesn't require leg).

Honestly, I don't know how to fix this other than miles. My horses have neck-reined, but worked mainly off leg cues so it didn't really matter what I was doing with my hands. I'll have to think a little more on this.

I probably wasn't helpful at all because I'm sure you're doing all of this already!

[EquineAlberta]

I had a bit of break through with him today in that he offered to "go deep" at the trot towards the end of the ride. I was even able to walk a bit, pick up the trot and he went back to the long and low with a springy back trot. I also think that his senstivity to neck reining is something I have to be more aware of as I often bring the inside rein up, out and back with a followin outside rein to encourage the horse to stretch to the inside, but for him, as soon as that inside rein comes off, he thinks he is supposed to turn...which is also some of the issue with trying to do shoulder in.

Thanks for the ideas/insight Range. I am sure that with time the path I am on will bring him along, but I was hoping for some ideas for a quick fix, but I know deep down that those aren't likely when it comes to proper training!

If we was used as a roper and was taught to back to hold the cow, is there a cue they give them or do they just learn to back when the cow is roped?

Karen

[beth55051]

Poor, poor horse to be the misfortunate recipient of bad WP training!

Beyond what Range said, about the only thing I can add (having worked for a few wanna be WP trainers) is the lead swaping.

He probably only knows what lead he's supposed to be on by feeling a spur dug into his side. Sounds like he's also poorly spur trained. Where he has no idea what he's supposed to be doing if there isn't a spur dug into his side.

I suppose the best place to start is teaching him simply to go forward in a straight line or very large circle then slowly add the contact as he can handle it.

Probably doesn't matter what bit you put in his mouth right now, he's going to stay overflexed until he understands that things have changed for the better. Have you tried a sidepull or jumping hack? Might get his mind off of one issue.

[EquineAlberta]

beth, I had thought about putting him in a sidepull thingy I have, or a Nurtural Bitless, but I haven't done it yet...perhaps tomorrow. I was thinking about what you said about Spur Stop training. I know he isn't trained that way but it made me thinking about the events leading up to his backing up...I assumed it was his confusion, but maybe it is a cue I am giving. He seems to back up when I try to ask for any soft of lateral bend around my inside leg such as for a shoulder in....so I am sitting taller and adding left leg at the girth (I use my upper calf on him). Perhaps this is mimicking his cue for back up?

Range/Beth, Normally with a horse that gets behind the bit I too would just send them forward, but when I have tried that with him he goes in panic mode and will get all jerky...fast slow pace flip head in air fast slow pace slow fast, I really have to be subtle to ask him to come forward...it is like he is afraid to go forward even though that is his best way to go. As he has a pace, if I press him and he goes into a pace, what do I do when he flips into pace mode?

Today I was able to allow him to go forward as he stretched into contact so I am hoping we can get that feeling again tomorrow. I think I need to clarify though too...it is not that he is behind the vertical (well, rarely), he is just not reaching into contact...he head is ALL over the place, but not in my hands if that makes sense...although I can get him to stretch into and accept the contact correctly on the ground. His head is usually high and sucked in and back.

Karen

[Range]

Have you had his back and neck looked at for possible adjustment? I'm just thinking that if he'll stretch into contact on the ground... Perhaps also, just the evidence of poor WP training makes me believe he's getting stiff and worried about what you'll ask from him. If they tried to "force" him into frame, it was likely painful for him.

I'm not sure about the backing up. Some are trained that any pressure on the mouth means to back up. Training methods vary so greatly that it's hard to even imagine what the cue was! I would hazard a guess that he was never taught to bend. It's a frustrating thing for me on a Western horse when I ask for a bend around my inside leg and the horse literally has no idea what in the world I want because they've been trained to move AND TURN away from pressure. So, if this is true for him, when you're giving a cue with your inside leg...he's thinking he has to turn away from it. Then, when he discovers that's not true, he gets confused and just backs up, figuring that's one way to get a release from the confusion.

I've never had a horse that would throw himself into a pace. Really makes me sad for his poor self and some bad training. However, I would let him travel along at his rate and not push him faster just yet. Or slow him up, or try to collect him. Let him learn it's okay to go whatever speed he feels comfortable with right now and let him relax. Then, gradually start picking up on his mouth a bit.

It sounds to me like he's a stiff, concerned, worried, nervous individual that had some poor riding and poor training, but that he's a "trying" horse and wants to please - so he's doing his best with what he thinks you want.

The head thing? It sure would be nice for you to have seen how he was ridden previously...if he had draw reins and tie downs and such, he probably just doesn't have a clue on how to hold his own head in an easy manner. He's looking for the support that was there before.

You may just have to go back and treat him like the ultimate greenie and let him re-learn how to be himself.

[SunnyKS]

I have seen many many many western horse punish for any "forward" motion or any infraction really by being made to back as fast as they can. Sometimes if they were used for cattle the cue to stop and move on is a pinch at the base of the neck right in front of the saddle horn. Couldn't hurt to try it and see.

I think his being so worried over the different cues is a good sign though. To me it says he's really trying to please. And since you have more experience than most of us I'm sure you'll find a way to help him understand.

[EquineAlberta]

Thanks Sunny, I just wish for his sake I understood western more as I am sure I confuse him! I realize now that using an opening rein just isn't going to work for him so I have to keep my hands close together or he thinks we are neck reining. I use the inside rein off the neck a lot normally, so this is a big adjustment for me.

I finally got the right lead canter for half the ring (up from a 3 stride max before), but I had to keep my left leg on and back the entire time (pressing with my upper calf)...this sent him into super speed, but at least he kept his lead! I halted him (mostly using voice) as we got to the next corner as I wanted to stop before he lost his lead.

To keep the left I just hold the outside rein and put weight to the outside, but this wasn't working to the right. This horse can swap leads so easily and even loose tends not to hold a lead for very long!

He also went into a long/low neck again today right from the start and was willing to poke his nose out for the warmup which was huge, although it popped right back up when we tried to canter...still, he relaxed it again for the cool down trot.

If he wasn't for sale for a client I likely would just take him back to square one and start completely over, but it is hard to do that with pressure to get him sold. I really need him to canter both leads and not back up so readily.

Karen

[grullatobiano]

You know my experience, so I don't know if you will find this helpful, but I am reminded of a few things.

With the bit, why not ride him in a curb? It's not like you'll be hard on his mouth . It will give him one less obstacle to feeling comfortable. I once rode a total monster in a snaffle. I couldn't stand the idea of putting his high-ported, 4" shanked western bit in. He was above the bit and awful the whole ride. Bit in mouth, quiet horse prepared to listen to me.

I wonder if there isn't some way to temporarily make the backing up a good thing. We actually used that technique at an old lesson barn to get horses up off the bit. When he's confused, ask him to back up and praise him for that which he knows how to do well. He might feel comfortable approaching the same problem again. When he is "wrong" he used to get backed up. Now, he just gets more, louder aids. Maybe he's getting panicky from that point of view?

[paintedpastures]

Agree with many of the others,poor horse,Sounds like he has had not great training period.Just because he was a western horse he should have had the same type of basic foundation that would enable him to go in either disipline. I Know I have had some my horses started by both a western trainer & English trainer in our area.Did not matter they all went pretty well the same in there response to aids. I ride primarily western but have been trying more english,doesn't matter which way I saddle them up the basics are there & they can go either way.I don't know what to offer/suggest but this is what I might try.
He sounds like he has had too much "mouth" riding. Riders on his face rather than him learning to follow leg & seat. Also probably over cued with strong leg and or spur. This horse before you start to get more from him has to learn to relax.Loose rein just let him go at his own speed & comfort .Stay off him as much as possible with bit pressures.I know my one mare who I just started riding a bit more this year ,was ridden by my more novice riders her last ridings.They don't use as much leg aids & on her face more.She was more uptight,head & face up fighting with the bit. Just them uptight has them flipping back & forth with leads & speed.I just had to reschool her off her face, loose rein in arena.She is use to voice commands ,so between that & her leg aids she cooled down & reliezed I wasn't going to be pulling on her face. Took her just a couple rides before she wasn't uptight & throwing her head & nose around fighting basically with me. She is back to her self again.
This horse has more bad training along with just a few novice riders to make him like this so it is going to take more to get the RELAX from him. I think once he does it will be like a light bulb went off & he will see you are not going to yank & get after him & he will really go to work.

[EquineAlberta]

Painted Pastures...he can't go in a loose rein as he panicks...he will start to pace, flip his head and get really crooked. He will break into a weird sweat. It is not pleasant. Normally I would agree with you, but he seems to like to know where my hands are with a constant soft contact.

Do you ever have trouble with english rein aids on a horse that neck reins.

GT, he seems to be starting to stretch into the contact now at the trot, so I am thinking he is finally accepting the snaffle and the idea he can press into the bit a little, I think using a curb would derail that...plus I don't actually have any curbs in my tack room!

Karen

[TBxQH]

Does he panic with a loose rein at the walk?

Maybe a few days a week, go on long, walking trails with him? Just for his head? I am getting that he is extremely alert to your hands and aids, and isn't comfortable, or doesn't understand what you are asking him to do with a soft bit and english saddle! I was just thinking to let him know that you aren't up there to rip his face off, that it can be fun and comfortable for him. Like detoxification?

I do this with my greenie who was broke as a reining horse. He was taught how to neck rein, but wasn't as sensitive as your horse.

[Range]

EA - that reining problem seriously has me stumped. I never have a problem switching bits and cues with my hand aids because my horses have always worked so well off of leg and seat. In fact, I have two horses that get entirely too upset when I pick up too much contact with the bit. I'm still thinking on it and researching, though.

I truly do wonder if he's had some sort of "head aid" that he is used to leaning on and the absence of that makes him WANT the contact of your hands.

Such a quandry.

[paintedpastures]

I would stay away from the curb bits & keep him in a snaffle.How does he longe?Have you tried with him saddled up & bridled with just reins tied up with loose rein contact,no tying back at all to one side or other? Like others his rein issues have me baffled most of the time if they are getting upset /uptight it is because they don't like the extra contact.My horses have always been 2 hand reined as they get solid in there commands [leg & bit ]the neck rein kinda comes on its own,never was one that went out trying to teach neck reining to my horse. As far as English rein aids on a neck reined horse can't help you as mine there aids are basically the same whether I ride English or western.As for curb bits I'm like you,think I own one & haven't used it in years. Just have to use when I would be riding a senior division horse in show as you can only use one hand reining.
Have you actually ridden him in western tack?If so how does he react is he still as uptight with things? The different bit,rein aids & different feel of leg & seat maybe has him so overwelmed /confused he doesn't know what to listen to.Just a thought but if you try riding him in a western saddle but ride your usual with English bridle & rein aids.See if he is a little more comfortable & starts to accept the bit & reining aids you provide once he seems better with that introduce the english saddle.

[EquineAlberta]

PP, no I haven't ridden him in western tack. I don't actually own western tack that fits me (just a saddle for hubby), so I only ride a horse western if the owner asks me to and brings out their own tack. I really don't feel safe western, but maybe he would so perhaps I just need to suck it up and borrow a western saddle to put on him. I have never seen this horse ridden. I wonder if there is someway to put western fenders on my dressage saddle....

I have lunged him in the tack with the reins looped in the throat latch and he was "hot" but fine. He is a little nervous on the lunge even in a halter but we are working on that (he gets cookies every so many circles...he loves cookies) and it seems to make me seem like less of the enemy. He is starting to be happier about coming to me to be worked (he used to play like he was shy). I must say he is going to be hard to say goodbye to as he tries SOOO hard...almost too hard for his own good.

I am going to try to get one of the kids to video us on Tuesday...maybe you guys can see something I am missing then.

Karen