Getting a horse off the front end

SpotADots4Me · 08-13-2008, 12:26 PM

Like always, I have a stupid question:

I sent Blue to my trainer (family friend) about a week and a half ago. She said Blue's major problem, is that she uses her hind end about 1% of the time, so all her drive is comming from her front half.

Jamie said that it stems from years of being trained wrong all together, and that her history as an abuse case hinders things. (said it had nothing delt with me, as I mostly desensitised and made her 'sit-on-able' again)

She noted that shes a smart horse, and she gives everything her 110%, so we're all praying that Blufus will figure it out. . .

My questions, are

1: how does a person teach a horse to NOT use its back end (In this case)

2: how to retrain a horse to use the front end (I suppose its an 'if its not too late' case)

and

3: once I get her back, how to keep her off her front end.

Shes very soft in the bit (Best thing on her is a D ring. . . evidently whoever started her didn't bit her right to boot) Had no leg yeilds when she came and good luck getting a saddle cinched days 1-3 without it taking a dive. . .

Shes come A LONG way since she came, but it feels like LIGHT YEARS until we'll see what she can do.

I chose to send her to my trainer (friend) both because I've been too swamped with school and work and because I began loosing confidence and wondered if I was doing it right. . .

Thanks!

-Spots

ChasnCans · 08-13-2008, 12:40 PM

Figure eights, lots of fence work. Make sure he can flex, give into pressure at the poll, ribs etc. If you can controll his rib cage you should be able to contol the hip area. Do lots of ground work to retrain her body, But again, fence work can really help you out. Backing up and turning him out of the back.

ruffian · 08-13-2008, 12:45 PM

If she has travelled and worked like this for years, you have lots of muscle memory to undo and reconditioning.
Given her history, I'd probably go back to lunging, ground driving and long reining, if done properly with side reins adjusted and over ground poles she can start to rebuild.
She is like my appendix (who looks like a draft) a puller, who generates power through her shoulder instead of brining her hind legs under her body and carrying her weight.
When working her, start from the basics at walk and trot. This is not about getting a headset, it is about driving her forward with seat and legs and providing some resistance with your hands (learn to half halt) so that she has to use her back more. She will find this to be hard work, maybe even a little uncomfortable, so you need to keep the sessions short and accept that it will take weeks to months to really develop this (it has taken me year to get good forwward, straight movement out of my old boy)
Good luck, it sounds as though you've made good progress with her already

SpotADots4Me · 08-13-2008, 12:49 PM

We were doing mostly figure 8s, serpentines you name it when I had her here. . .

I had to use both legs (Inside leg back, outside leg normal) to get her hind end to engage.

I taught her the neck flexes C.Anderson taught both ground and saddle, and usless we were doing the 8s, I had her against the rail.

I didn't think to do anything with her back ups like you said though. . . hmmm. . .

Hideaway · 08-13-2008, 12:56 PM

Most horses come to me this way. Seems a lot of people forget that the hind end is to drive the horse. I usually start at the walk and work on moving off pressure. I then do figure eights and circles using my legs to push the horse out. Once good at that I do a switcheroo. I start with a large circle and use my outside leg to push the horse in making a spiral to the inside and then trotting out of it. Eventually I like to spiral them in then out but you don't want to do it too quickly or you'll frustrate and sour them. It's something that I usually prepare time for. They don't learn to use their back end over night and I try to make it fun or they tend to shut down and you have to start all over again.

Another thing I play with my hunter who can get heavy is canter, halt, back and squeeze right back into a canter eventually being able to eliminate the backing. Newbies I let trot before picking the canter back up if they really have to but only for the first few sessions and then they sure as heck better canter when I ask.

mafarion · 08-13-2008, 01:15 PM

Hill work would be highly beneficial. Trot up the hills and walk down the hills. This will build hind end muscle and increase the horse's ability to use it.

**Range** · 08-13-2008, 02:10 PM

Lots of backing and then starting up again, just get in the habit of going a few strides, halting, and backing up - never halt without a back up (well, not until they're more on the haunches). Transition work. Extending the stride at all gaits. Trotting poles on the ground can also help.

For me, though, what's worked the absolute best is...roll-backs. Helps that my boy likes to do those!

redboy · 08-13-2008, 04:38 PM

All great suggestions, particularly, trotting off a few steps, stopping and backing, repeatedly, and hill work.
I also think that trotting over crossrails with a pole in front would help, b/c she would kinda have to stop/ look down at the pole and stand back a bit to jump the low crossrail.
Cavalletti pole work is always good to get horses looking down at where they are going, and rounding their backs, as well as, placing their feet carefully, as they move thru a series of poles. It will them help to take their weight off the front end, and use their hind end to stand back to jump, which will help develop muscles in the hind end.
Redboy

Crookedblaze · 08-13-2008, 04:44 PM

Rocket used to work off of his front end like that...

what worked for me was backing up, long lining and trotting poles/cavalettis, a combination of what everyone has said. The cavalettis really were the best, they also teach your horse to be aware of where their feet are and to pick up their feet.

Sundance · 08-13-2008, 05:03 PM

Rollbacks and changing directions when lunging.

To do the roll back, ride her towards the fence at a 45 degree angle to create a pocket for her to turn into. The more you do this the better you'll both get.

When your lunging her, change her directions often. If she doesn't know how to do it at first, give her time to realize what you're asking. She'll eventually get to the point where she'll stop with her rear end to the ground and turn on her back legs, lift her front end up and around.

I've been trying to work on this with Pepper because he seems to be heavy on his front end as well.

Good luck and let us know how things go!

GreyDot · 08-13-2008, 05:30 PM

To agree with both Ruffian and Redboy - all work involving adding the 'jump' to their gait, as well as transitions, especially hill work, will help. You want the horse to start springing off the rear end - and cavaletti and little tiny jumps are wonderful for that. If the horse is soft and yielding on the bit, then it's a question of doing exercises that will help shift the weight back - riding half-halts and controlled downward transitions, and then immediatetely asking for a forward upward transition WHILE the horse is in the collection that was achieved via the half-halt or the downward transition. i.e. - ride a trot, make the transition to the walk, and immediately trot again. It also takes a lot of work on the part of the rider, being able to control the position of their center of gravity and being able to provide the muscular strength to support the horse through a half-halt, so that it doesn't take a nose dive on a halt or a down-ward transition, but starts to sit back on its haunches.

SpotADots4Me · 08-14-2008, 08:02 AM

Unfortunately, FL is kind of lacking in the hills dept

we do have a really deep ditch out front, so maybe that would work. .

Otherwise, I'll agree on roll backs, but those are still in the future for her. . .

she is GREEN

tuffsmom · 08-14-2008, 08:14 AM

We do a lot of long lining. It teaches them balance and how to do the collection work without having a rider on the back. When we start riding we do roll backs.

Luvridn · 08-14-2008, 08:26 AM

I just read last night Parelli's version of "hill therapy"

You don't have to have much hill to do it...they recommended about a 10-15% grade. That is not much. Anything steeper they recommend a walk only.

If you don't have hills you can set up two jumps about 18" high, like barrells or logs, at 3 and 6 oclock and lunge on a 20' line. Cavalletti can be used but they said the 2 jumps was more beneficial.

I haven't applied this yet, just read about it, but it is supposed to be great for building topline and getting them to use their hind end.

The one thing about Parelli's version is they recommend not riding for the 6 weeks of the program, until the muscles rebuild, otherwise you can defeat the purpose. But once that 6 weeks is up you don't have to do it anymore unless the horse reverts at some point down the road.

tlcasel · 08-14-2008, 08:49 AM

This is great advise... I, too, am having the same problem with my paint.

My trainer (who just started working him 2 weeks ago) said he all front half. Makes sense once he explained it cause my horse always trips while doing circles. He's going to show me tonight how to do lunge work to improve it, and other exercises to do with him.

One questions though, forgive me if I missed it, but what are "roll backs"?

Thanks!

GreyDot · 08-14-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpotADots4Me

Unfortunately, FL is kind of lacking in the hills dept

we do have a really deep ditch out front, so maybe that would work. .

Otherwise, I'll agree on roll backs, but those are still in the future for her. . .

she is GREEN

LOL Well, you could always just ride in and out of the ditch a few dozen times

Seriously, though, before anyone invented anything as fancy as rollbacks (which are just a sudden reverse of direction, often at a hard canter, which comes out as a really fast, unframed half-pirouette and turns the horse 180 degrees), the traditional method of building up a horse's hindquarters in the absence of hills is just doing a lot of transitions. Working on canter -> trot, canter -> walk, trot -> walk and trot -> halt (don't do canter to halt, it's too demanding at this point) helps the horse shift his weight back. You will likely need to help him by balancing your own weight, so that the lever action of your upper body helps him tip his weight to the back on the transition, instead of falling on his nose. It basically simulates the work you'd be doing on a hill, except that instead of the hill doing the work, you'll be doing it yourself - developing the horse's position so that its body ends up 'uphill', instead of 'downhill', as it is now.

It's definitely not nearly as exciting as doing rollbacks, but it's a lot easier on a horse's legs and back (!), involves a lot less drama, lets the horse think about what they're doing, and trains the rider as well as the horse.

reiningfan · 08-14-2008, 12:16 PM

My son's horse tends to get heavy on her front end. To fix it, we do lots of gait transitions, backing up after a stop, and get the heck off her face. His mare can tend to lean on his hands, which tends to get them dumping on their front end. If you tend to bend forward when riding, this will hinder getting them working of the hind end.
Any exercise which requires them to use their haunches and get off the front end are good, such as turns on the haunches, which green horses can do when taught slowly and properly.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
My horse is only front wheel drive....suggestions??	HighHorse	Training	20	08-30-2007 08:57 AM
A fight to end horse abuse etc. (video)	illiniequine	Horse Stories	71	12-06-2006 10:02 PM

08-13-2008, 12:26 PM
SpotADots4Me Yearling Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 623	Getting a horse off the front end Like always, I have a stupid question: I sent Blue to my trainer (family friend) about a week and a half ago. She said Blue's major problem, is that she uses her hind end about 1% of the time, so all her drive is comming from her front half. Jamie said that it stems from years of being trained wrong all together, and that her history as an abuse case hinders things. (said it had nothing delt with me, as I mostly desensitised and made her 'sit-on-able' again) She noted that shes a smart horse, and she gives everything her 110%, so we're all praying that Blufus will figure it out. . . My questions, are 1: how does a person teach a horse to NOT use its back end (In this case) 2: how to retrain a horse to use the front end (I suppose its an 'if its not too late' case) and 3: once I get her back, how to keep her off her front end. Shes very soft in the bit (Best thing on her is a D ring. . . evidently whoever started her didn't bit her right to boot) Had no leg yeilds when she came and good luck getting a saddle cinched days 1-3 without it taking a dive. . . Shes come A LONG way since she came, but it feels like LIGHT YEARS until we'll see what she can do. I chose to send her to my trainer (friend) both because I've been too swamped with school and work and because I began loosing confidence and wondered if I was doing it right. . . Thanks! -Spots __________________ oops, I did it again

08-13-2008, 12:40 PM
ChasnCans Coming two Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: KS Posts: 1,561	Figure eights, lots of fence work. Make sure he can flex, give into pressure at the poll, ribs etc. If you can controll his rib cage you should be able to contol the hip area. Do lots of ground work to retrain her body, But again, fence work can really help you out. Backing up and turning him out of the back. __________________ In memory of baby Mayln Marie Loyd. I love and miss you! (Aug 13th-Oct 29th)While he may knock over a barrel he will never break my heart Last edited by ChasnCans : 08-13-2008 at 12:47 PM.

08-13-2008, 12:45 PM
ruffian Yearling Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Alberta Posts: 979	If she has travelled and worked like this for years, you have lots of muscle memory to undo and reconditioning. Given her history, I'd probably go back to lunging, ground driving and long reining, if done properly with side reins adjusted and over ground poles she can start to rebuild. She is like my appendix (who looks like a draft) a puller, who generates power through her shoulder instead of brining her hind legs under her body and carrying her weight. When working her, start from the basics at walk and trot. This is not about getting a headset, it is about driving her forward with seat and legs and providing some resistance with your hands (learn to half halt) so that she has to use her back more. She will find this to be hard work, maybe even a little uncomfortable, so you need to keep the sessions short and accept that it will take weeks to months to really develop this (it has taken me year to get good forwward, straight movement out of my old boy) Good luck, it sounds as though you've made good progress with her already __________________ There is something about the outside of a Horse that\'s good for the inside of a man (Will Rogers)

08-13-2008, 12:49 PM
SpotADots4Me Yearling Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 623	We were doing mostly figure 8s, serpentines you name it when I had her here. . . I had to use both legs (Inside leg back, outside leg normal) to get her hind end to engage. I taught her the neck flexes C.Anderson taught both ground and saddle, and usless we were doing the 8s, I had her against the rail. I didn't think to do anything with her back ups like you said though. . . hmmm. . . __________________ oops, I did it again

08-13-2008, 12:56 PM
Hideaway Coming two Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: PA Posts: 1,949	Most horses come to me this way. Seems a lot of people forget that the hind end is to drive the horse. I usually start at the walk and work on moving off pressure. I then do figure eights and circles using my legs to push the horse out. Once good at that I do a switcheroo. I start with a large circle and use my outside leg to push the horse in making a spiral to the inside and then trotting out of it. Eventually I like to spiral them in then out but you don't want to do it too quickly or you'll frustrate and sour them. It's something that I usually prepare time for. They don't learn to use their back end over night and I try to make it fun or they tend to shut down and you have to start all over again. Another thing I play with my hunter who can get heavy is canter, halt, back and squeeze right back into a canter eventually being able to eliminate the backing. Newbies I let trot before picking the canter back up if they really have to but only for the first few sessions and then they sure as heck better canter when I ask. __________________ Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History

08-13-2008, 01:15 PM
mafarion Halter broke Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 81	Hill work would be highly beneficial. Trot up the hills and walk down the hills. This will build hind end muscle and increase the horse's ability to use it.

08-13-2008, 02:10 PM
Range Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Back of Beyond Posts: 5,728	Lots of backing and then starting up again, just get in the habit of going a few strides, halting, and backing up - never halt without a back up (well, not until they're more on the haunches). Transition work. Extending the stride at all gaits. Trotting poles on the ground can also help. For me, though, what's worked the absolute best is...roll-backs. Helps that my boy likes to do those! __________________ If it harms none, do what you will.

08-13-2008, 04:38 PM
redboy Yearling Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland Posts: 941	All great suggestions, particularly, trotting off a few steps, stopping and backing, repeatedly, and hill work. I also think that trotting over crossrails with a pole in front would help, b/c she would kinda have to stop/ look down at the pole and stand back a bit to jump the low crossrail. Cavalletti pole work is always good to get horses looking down at where they are going, and rounding their backs, as well as, placing their feet carefully, as they move thru a series of poles. It will them help to take their weight off the front end, and use their hind end to stand back to jump, which will help develop muscles in the hind end. Redboy Last edited by redboy : 08-13-2008 at 07:42 PM.

08-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Crookedblaze Started Join Date: May 2008 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,447	Rocket used to work off of his front end like that... what worked for me was backing up, long lining and trotting poles/cavalettis, a combination of what everyone has said. The cavalettis really were the best, they also teach your horse to be aware of where their feet are and to pick up their feet. __________________ Owned by Rocketman, a 17 year old AQHA and Stormy, a 10 year old Peruvian Paso x Arab

08-13-2008, 05:03 PM
Sundance Coming two Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 1,573	Rollbacks and changing directions when lunging. To do the roll back, ride her towards the fence at a 45 degree angle to create a pocket for her to turn into. The more you do this the better you'll both get. When your lunging her, change her directions often. If she doesn't know how to do it at first, give her time to realize what you're asking. She'll eventually get to the point where she'll stop with her rear end to the ground and turn on her back legs, lift her front end up and around. I've been trying to work on this with Pepper because he seems to be heavy on his front end as well. Good luck and let us know how things go! __________________ Contrary to popular belief, seeing spots is a good thing...

08-13-2008, 05:30 PM
GreyDot Started Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Between AZ and OH Posts: 2,295	To agree with both Ruffian and Redboy - all work involving adding the 'jump' to their gait, as well as transitions, especially hill work, will help. You want the horse to start springing off the rear end - and cavaletti and little tiny jumps are wonderful for that. If the horse is soft and yielding on the bit, then it's a question of doing exercises that will help shift the weight back - riding half-halts and controlled downward transitions, and then immediatetely asking for a forward upward transition WHILE the horse is in the collection that was achieved via the half-halt or the downward transition. i.e. - ride a trot, make the transition to the walk, and immediately trot again. It also takes a lot of work on the part of the rider, being able to control the position of their center of gravity and being able to provide the muscular strength to support the horse through a half-halt, so that it doesn't take a nose dive on a halt or a down-ward transition, but starts to sit back on its haunches. __________________ ...There is nothing to be done till a horse's head is settled. ~William Cavendish Stuipid CAN be fixed... you just have to hit it hard enough! ~A rare moment of inspiration

08-14-2008, 08:02 AM
SpotADots4Me Yearling Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 623	Unfortunately, FL is kind of lacking in the hills dept we do have a really deep ditch out front, so maybe that would work. . Otherwise, I'll agree on roll backs, but those are still in the future for her. . . she is GREEN __________________ oops, I did it again

08-14-2008, 08:14 AM
tuffsmom Seasoned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 4,072	We do a lot of long lining. It teaches them balance and how to do the collection work without having a rider on the back. When we start riding we do roll backs. __________________

08-14-2008, 08:26 AM
Luvridn Long Yearling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 1,072	I just read last night Parelli's version of "hill therapy" You don't have to have much hill to do it...they recommended about a 10-15% grade. That is not much. Anything steeper they recommend a walk only. If you don't have hills you can set up two jumps about 18" high, like barrells or logs, at 3 and 6 oclock and lunge on a 20' line. Cavalletti can be used but they said the 2 jumps was more beneficial. I haven't applied this yet, just read about it, but it is supposed to be great for building topline and getting them to use their hind end. The one thing about Parelli's version is they recommend not riding for the 6 weeks of the program, until the muscles rebuild, otherwise you can defeat the purpose. But once that 6 weeks is up you don't have to do it anymore unless the horse reverts at some point down the road. __________________ If your horse wants to bolt, there is probably a nut loose in the saddle! PP

08-14-2008, 08:49 AM
tlcasel Halter broke Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Central Florida Posts: 191	This is great advise... I, too, am having the same problem with my paint. My trainer (who just started working him 2 weeks ago) said he all front half. Makes sense once he explained it cause my horse always trips while doing circles. He's going to show me tonight how to do lunge work to improve it, and other exercises to do with him. One questions though, forgive me if I missed it, but what are "roll backs"? Thanks!

08-14-2008, 12:16 PM
reiningfan Yearling Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Western Manitoba, Canada Posts: 516	My son's horse tends to get heavy on her front end. To fix it, we do lots of gait transitions, backing up after a stop, and get the heck off her face. His mare can tend to lean on his hands, which tends to get them dumping on their front end. If you tend to bend forward when riding, this will hinder getting them working of the hind end. Any exercise which requires them to use their haunches and get off the front end are good, such as turns on the haunches, which green horses can do when taught slowly and properly.