Training the Older Horse

[Freedomnchrist]

O.k.

I think I have narrowed down that Blondie has NEVER had any formal training.

Matter of fact...I would call her GREEN BROKE......at 12!

That is the fun of taking on a rescue eh.

My question is....

Is it possible for the older horse to be trained...if none has already been given?

Is this a lost cause?

Should I just let her be a pasture puff.

She knows NOTHING!

No ground manners.....no saddle manners.....no WHOA......no nothing.

I think her previous owners just threw a saddle on her...and away they went.

I rode her again today...and tried one rein stop and everything...but nothing worked.

She does not listen at all.

I don't have a round pen...so that is not an option.

I am currently using a egg butt snaffle.....have tried a curb shank with a small port as well.

So....do you think it will be of any use to try and train her?

I just have no clue...and am very depressed at the moment.

[Logan-24-]

Nothing is a lost cause I realized that my two year old has a longer attention span than my fourteen year old and that my two year old absorbs things like a sponge while my fourteen year old takes longer.

One took my filly one time to tackle a box (to stand on) it took me 15 minutes with my 14 year old.

It’ll take more than one ride mor than a handful to get things to click with an older horse. Some learn faster than others. She may be ‘mentally’ lazy because she never did anything before. You’ve got the right idea with the one rein stop IMO. I love that training method.

Keep your chin up and be persistent It’ll work out in the end. I’m sure many others here will give you an expert opinion versus my personal experience one lol.

Good luck to you

[SilverLexi]

I bought my daughter a 9 yr old broodmare, mostly as a rescue. Now this mare had absolutely nothing done with her. You could barely halter her. Well my daughter and mare fought for close to 2 months. There were times that I seriously thought mare was going to the glue factory . But I encouraged my daughter to keep at it.

Would you believe that those 2 are like glue now. That mare is certainly HER horse and a dream to watch. Is it worth it??? According to my daughter nothing can make her get rid of that mare.

I love telling my daughter "I told you so". But what I love more is seeing that connection developing between horse and rider. You may have to start from scratch but in the end it could be well worth it.

[mlh619]

Don't give up yet! With a little patience and consistancy there shouldn't be any reason that she shouldn't be able to learn. Go back to the basics and start again with halter respect and go from there. As long as you are consistant and firm she will learn what is acceptable and what isnt. Do lots of ground work with her teaching her to bend and move away from pressure and whoa. An eggbutt should be fine I wouldn't move to a curb yet. You can teach speeding up and whoa on a lunge line (you don't need a round pen to lunge just make sure you body position is good) and then progress to riding. One thing about training the older horse is that they are more set in their ways that a young horse and seem to know that they can get out of work by following a set pattern of behavior ie)If I throw my head up enough times and shake it around eventually I don't have to be bridled. You have to be smarter than the horse in that once you recognize the pattern you can stop it by giving them something else to do. If she won't stop completely ask her to speed up again and do serpentines or figure eights ask for collection and giving to the bridle, sidepassing, anything to keep her feet moving. If she doesn't know any of the above it is a perfect time to teach her! Patience and consistancy are so important when you train an older horse!

Some horses have better temperments than others when it comes to training, one horse may just accept it while the next will fight you the entire time. As long as you stay consistant she will learn!
Hope that helps!

[Freedomnchrist]

Originally Posted by mlh619

Don't give up yet! With a little patience and consistancy there shouldn't be any reason that she shouldn't be able to learn. Go back to the basics and start again with halter respect and go from there. As long as you are consistant and firm she will learn what is acceptable and what isnt. Do lots of ground work with her teaching her to bend and move away from pressure and whoa. An eggbutt should be fine I wouldn't move to a curb yet. You can teach speeding up and whoa on a lunge line (you don't need a round pen to lunge just make sure you body position is good) and then progress to riding. One thing about training the older horse is that they are more set in their ways that a young horse and seem to know that they can get out of work by following a set pattern of behavior ie)If I throw my head up enough times and shake it around eventually I don't have to be bridled. You have to be smarter than the horse in that once you recognize the pattern you can stop it by giving them something else to do. If she won't stop completely ask her to speed up again and do serpentines or figure eights ask for collection and giving to the bridle, sidepassing, anything to keep her feet moving. If she doesn't know any of the above it is a perfect time to teach her! Patience and consistancy are so important when you train an older horse!

Some horses have better temperments than others when it comes to training, one horse may just accept it while the next will fight you the entire time. As long as you stay consistant she will learn!
Hope that helps!

Great advice from everyone.

In response to this post...I would like to add that I have never had a horse completely ignore the bit all together.

I have also never had a horse try to and almost completely run away from me.

I am pretty good at handling most any horse....but I rode her alone today.... and she took the bit and I COULD NOT get her to turn, stop or anything.

I tried to take her away from the house some...to see if she was just barn/buddy sour...and ended up walking her from the ground home for fear of her hurting both of us. Which really aggrevated me even more.

I have never seen one just ignore the bit completely! Even the see saw method did not work!..Would not turn her head for nothing to do a one rein stop.

[Freedomnchrist]

Originally Posted by Logan-24-

Nothing is a lost cause

It’ll take more than one ride more than a handful to get things to click with an older horse. Some learn faster than others.

Keep your chin up and be persistent It’ll work out in the end.

These words hit home.....

[GreyDot]

Hang in there! YES, an older horse can be trained - it just takes longer, because now you have bad habits to break, as well as good habits to make. But it's definitely do-able. So, don't throw in the towel - just gird your loins, take a deep breath and remember that it will take a lot of small steps. Reward both yourself and the horse after every little step. Remember also, that you will have little learning 'plateaus', when nothing seems to sink in. Take them as they come, and know that you will get past them. It just takes time.

As for ignoring the bit - how about going to a hackamore for a little while? If her owners just threw the saddle on her, without any thought, it's also possible that they may have been hard on her mouth. A hack is as severe as you want it to be, but also just acts differently, so she may be better with that. You may need to literally re-bit her, though, just as if you were teaching a baby, at the same time as you work her in a hackamore. I would start with the hack first, though.

Good luck!

[allison]

First off, sorry you're having a tough time with Blondie. The lack of training and rules can be very frustrating. You pretty much have to start at ground zero and work your way up.
Some older horses can be much easier to train, because you don't have the silliness of a young horse. I would hate to see a horse waste away in a pasture. Keep working with her, it won't happen over night.
It may feel like right now she is set in her own ways, with no understanding of work eithics - but this can be changed. You need to create a partership and trust/bond with her.
I don't know the backstory with Blondie (other than being a rescue), but what work have you done with her, up until this last ride? Can you enlist the help of someone?
And I agree with the other comments, she is not a lost cause! Please don't give up on her.

[Freedomnchrist]

Originally Posted by GreyDot

Hang in there! YES, an older horse can be trained - it just takes longer, because now you have bad habits to break, as well as good habits to make. But it's definitely do-able. So, don't throw in the towel - just gird your loins, take a deep breath and remember that it will take a lot of small steps. Reward both yourself and the horse after every little step. Remember also, that you will have little learning 'plateaus', when nothing seems to sink in. Take them as they come, and know that you will get past them. It just takes time.

As for ignoring the bit - how about going to a hackamore for a little while? If her owners just threw the saddle on her, without any thought, it's also possible that they may have been hard on her mouth. A hack is as severe as you want it to be, but also just acts differently, so she may be better with that. You may need to literally re-bit her, though, just as if you were teaching a baby, at the same time as you work her in a hackamore. I would start with the hack first, though.

Good luck!

Very good point. I have thought about a hack...as she does not like to take a bit at all....I can stick my thumb in the side of her mouth all day long...and she grits her front teeth together....and holds on tight.

I have really....really...thought about a hack. Guess I need to go read up on them.

[Freedomnchrist]

Originally Posted by allison

First off, sorry you're having a tough time with Blondie. The lack of training and rules can be very frustrating. You pretty much have to start at ground zero and work your way up.
Some older horses can be much easier to train, because you don't have the silliness of a young horse. I would hate to see a horse waste away in a pasture. Keep working with her, it won't happen over night.
It may feel like right now she is set in her own ways, with no understanding of work eithics - but this can be changed. You need to create a partership and trust/bond with her.
I don't know the backstory with Blondie (other than being a rescue), but what work have you done with her, up until this last ride? Can you enlist the help of someone?
And I agree with the other comments, she is not a lost cause! Please don't give up on her.

She was a rescue I took in who had no story. I have been able to contact her original owners to find out she spent the first 3-5 years being a pasture mate. She was intended to be a show horse....but they got out of the horse business.

She is just like a wild child....throwing a fit to get her way!!!

If there is a way though...we will find it.

I am just frusterated.

[NoniMe]

You know, when Tango was doing that with the bit, I went to a hack. That was after we discovered that he still, at 8 1/2, had a wolf tooth embedded (which created pain, and he grabbed and held that which hurt him...understandable, but a problem indeed). We worked in the hack for about 5 months, and then I re-introduced a bit to him. He took it wonderfully, and we have been in the french link since. If your hands are gentle, and you don't yank a lot, I'd suggest a hack for sure. It worked for Tango...I don't see why it wouldn't work for you and Blondie.

As for the one-rein stop, don't forget to use your feet, too. Not using the feet will make the one rein fairly useless, especially if your girl grabs the bit.

As to training the older horse, I have to say that Tango is 'older' and has learned an enormous amount since I got him...he is lazy, and learns the hard way (most of the time), and does everything to avoid actually working, but that's also coming along...I believe every horse can be trained, given time enough, consistency, and patience...

You have to learn, though, how she learns. Take something utterly new - something you've never asked her to do before, and figure out how she learns...does she learn from gruffness from you? From treats? From repetition with no reinforcement? Does she need time to consider it, to think it through? With Tango, I have used very effectively the patience/reinforcement ideas. Meaning, I know he loves his peppermints...so I ask him for something, ask again, give him some time to noodle it through, and then ask him again...and once I get the response (or even partial response), he gets a peppermint. What I've discovered is that if I crinkle the peppermint's plastic, I have his attention and he wants to do what I'm asking...and for him, knowing a peppermint might be eventually involved, will do his best to figure out what I'm asking for. Over time, he gets fewer and fewer peppermints, until he performs what I ask several times correctly before he gets the peppermint, and then the peppermint is supplanted with praise only.

That's the method I use with Tango...with careful observation, you'll figure out how Blondie responds best. Don't forget that every horse, like every person, is different and will respond differently...so find what works for her, and employ it.

She can be trained; like I said, it's a matter of you learning how she learns best and easiest, and going from there.

Good luck, don't give in to frustration, and know that she can learn.

Best-
Noni

[Freedomnchrist]

Originally Posted by NoniMe

You know, when Tango was doing that with the bit, I went to a hack. That was after we discovered that he still, at 8 1/2, had a wolf tooth embedded (which created pain, and he grabbed and held that which hurt him...understandable, but a problem indeed). We worked in the hack for about 5 months, and then I re-introduced a bit to him. He took it wonderfully, and we have been in the french link since. If your hands are gentle, and you don't yank a lot, I'd suggest a hack for sure. It worked for Tango...I don't see why it wouldn't work for you and Blondie.

As for the one-rein stop, don't forget to use your feet, too. Not using the feet will make the one rein fairly useless, especially if your girl grabs the bit.

As to training the older horse, I have to say that Tango is 'older' and has learned an enormous amount since I got him...he is lazy, and learns the hard way (most of the time), and does everything to avoid actually working, but that's also coming along...I believe every horse can be trained, given time enough, consistency, and patience...

You have to learn, though, how she learns. Take something utterly new - something you've never asked her to do before, and figure out how she learns...does she learn from gruffness from you? From treats? From repetition with no reinforcement? Does she need time to consider it, to think it through? With Tango, I have used very effectively the patience/reinforcement ideas. Meaning, I know he loves his peppermints...so I ask him for something, ask again, give him some time to noodle it through, and then ask him again...and once I get the response (or even partial response), he gets a peppermint. What I've discovered is that if I crinkle the peppermint's plastic, I have his attention and he wants to do what I'm asking...and for him, knowing a peppermint might be eventually involved, will do his best to figure out what I'm asking for. Over time, he gets fewer and fewer peppermints, until he performs what I ask several times correctly before he gets the peppermint, and then the peppermint is supplanted with praise only.

That's the method I use with Tango...with careful observation, you'll figure out how Blondie responds best. Don't forget that every horse, like every person, is different and will respond differently...so find what works for her, and employ it.

She can be trained; like I said, it's a matter of you learning how she learns best and easiest, and going from there.

Good luck, don't give in to frustration, and know that she can learn.

Best-
Noni

What are the wolf teeth? She has a very small tooth on the outside of her front teeth...right next to her front teeth. Is that a wolf tooth?

I am beginning to think a hack is a good idea.

I just need to somehow get her attention.....to let her know....her way is not the way.

*Sigh* I will be better tomorrow.

Right now...my arms hurt and I am sore.

ETA: I consider myself to have gentle hands...but not when they try and take off. I had to be very firm today. Seat aides and leg aides were ignored as well.

[SilverLexi]

Reading about the bit being useless I should have mentioned that my daughters mare took fits with a bit. She was doing all the same actions that you have described your mare doing. I suggested using a hackmore and bought an english hackmore to try. It was like having a different horse.

To this day thats all my daughter uses on her mare. I wish you luck with your mare.

*Wolf teeth are a small tooth that sit infront of the molars and interfer with the bit. It can cause alot of pain to horses when the bit lands on them. Some mares get canines. Don't quote me but it sounds like your mare has them. I could be wrong. Anyone else have any idea??*

[Freedomnchrist]

Originally Posted by SilverLexi

Reading about the bit being useless I should have mentioned that my daughters mare took fits with a bit. She was doing all the same actions that you have discribed your mare doing. I suggested using a hackmore and bought an english hackmore to try. It was like having a different horse.

To this day thats all my daughter uses on her mare. I wish you luck with your mare.

When I get home tonight...I will have to check out the different hacks in the tack threads.

[NoniMe]

You know, you might have an equine dentist come out and evaluate. The wolf teeth are generally removed in their early years, but apparently sometimes they are missed and not removed (as in Tango's case). It might be something which is totally organic, like the tooth, which causes her to grab the bit to prevent pain...and if that's true, then the problem is halfway solved. The reason I put Tango into a hack after we removed the wolf tooth was to give him time to 'forget' the pain a bit caused, and then eventually transition back into the bit at some future time. That plan worked very well with us; it might work with you, too. And if Tango still had the grabbing behavior, I'd've gone back to the hack. He has not once grabbed the bit since we've come back to it...so I consider what we did a smashing success.

Now, for what I understand about wolf teeth (not much...). They grow as vestigial teeth (i.e. unneeded) in the place where the bit sits, in between the front teeth and the molars, both upper and lower. They are small, easily removed, but can cause great pain when the bit comes in contact with them (someone compared it to a toothpick being shoved under our fingernails with each contact made...not something which I would tolerate whatsoever...).

If there are any issues with grabbing the bit, I recommend that a dentist (not a vet) come out and evaluate. Before I consider a behavior an expression of personality, I try to rule out pain issues...and if there is activity regarding the mouth, especially grabbing the bit, I always consider tooth/jaw issues. That's just my opinion, though, and something which has worked for Tango...your results may vary. LOL.

And yes, grabbing the bit and refusing to stop will give you arm pain...and frustrate you insanely. Been there, done that...lol.

Let me ask you this. Have you ridden her in a halter and leadrope/reins? In an enclosed area, of course...but that might give you an indication as to if it's the bit that's bothering her, or if it's a general attitude issue. Will she give to pressure on the halter? Give her head to you? Turn with you without protest? All of that might give you a place to start...

I'd just take it slow, break it into baby steps, and look to see where pain might be involved...pain responses are sometimes easier to deal with than ingrained behavior, and I'd look to see if there's something organic going on with her mouth. Eliminate the obvious/pain, and then deal with what's left, is how I look at training issues with Tango.

Good luck, take a break for today, rest those arms, and rest your brain. The answer will come, but it won't be fast...so have patience and don't give in to frustration. That will help neither you nor Blondie.

Best-
Noni

[fishing_trex]

I bought a 2YO TWH mare with a known hip issue as a brood mare. My vet said if I left her in the pasture "for awhile" the hip issue would clear up. Fast forward 14 years to last year. We finally decided to start riding her. Yes, an old horse can be taught to ride. Granted this mare had some ground manners, but really nothing else. 30 days and she was on the trails and doing a good job.

Do lots of ground work with your horse. Part of the problem is she most likely doesn't know how to communicate with you. I'd start with a halter and long lead rope. No round pen? No problem. There are still lots of things you can do to gain her respect and learn to communicate with her. But I wouldn't ride her until you are sure she respects you on the ground and she understands what you want.

Dont' give up on her. Just don't move too fast.

[gbarmranch]

Originally Posted by GreyDot

Hang in there! YES, an older horse can be trained - it just takes longer, because now you have bad habits to break, as well as good habits to make. But it's definitely do-able. So, don't throw in the towel - just gird your loins, take a deep breath and remember that it will take a lot of small steps. Reward both yourself and the horse after every little step. Remember also, that you will have little learning 'plateaus', when nothing seems to sink in. Take them as they come, and know that you will get past them. It just takes time.

As for ignoring the bit - how about going to a hackamore for a little while? If her owners just threw the saddle on her, without any thought, it's also possible that they may have been hard on her mouth. A hack is as severe as you want it to be, but also just acts differently, so she may be better with that. You may need to literally re-bit her, though, just as if you were teaching a baby, at the same time as you work her in a hackamore. I would start with the hack first, though.

Good luck!

I can't add a thing.. patience will get her there - lots of prayers and Good luck wishes..

[Spyder]

You would be best getting a professional to work her.

[EquineAlberta]

It sounds to me like she needs to go back to step one: learning to give to pressure. Ground work, lunging, ground driving. If she was never taught what a bit (or hack) means then all it is, is an instrument to inflict pain with no real meaning. She needs to be taught what you want when you apply pressure in the simplest form.

Karen

[Freedomnchrist]

Guess I wanted to hear it from someone else other than myself.

*sigh*

Lots and lots of work ahead of me....

As far as getting a professional.....

There aren't any round here.

In these neck of the woods you are on your own.