How would you handle this?

[dodib]

Ok you all know I bought my daughter a new pony and Exmoor--a couple weeks ago. My daughter absolutely LOVES her. She is good for the most part but is a dominant mare............. and at times will get in a mood and turn her butt towards you like she may kick when you go up to her. Well my daughter got grazed by one of her kicks yesterday. I guess she continued to catch her and then ran her in the arena-- did like join up-- kept making her change directions etc....
Now from what I gather she was not really handled until about 7 months ago-- she rides great for my daughter and they seem to get along really good BUT I hate that she does this and do want to nip in the bud. She is only 4 so young..... I think its just a testing issue-- I yell NO STOP IT when she is turning her butt at me. I am wondering if I shoudl let her kick out so I can whack her in the butt???? Any ideas on how to curb this naughty behavior???
Thanks

[jolene.fargo]

I would work with her by having her move her bum away from you under halter and to give you space, once she understands your cues to move her bum away, work in a small pen with the same cues but no halter.
By cueing her to move her butt away, she'll start to learn that it is unacceptable to dominate you by turning and threatening to kick. She's basically insulting you if you think about it in the horse world!

If she continues this with your daughter, have her use a lunge whip to gently touch her on the side of her bum to cue her to move over, do this under halter first, someone holding her on the front end and someone in behind asking her to move her bum away. Then you can do this again loose in a small pen so that she can get the picture. If she does kick out, then she deserves a quick smack with the whip and a sharp "NO" to say that it is unacceptable.

Make sure that when she moves over and does what she is asked, the whip drops and she gets lovies from you. Eventually you won't need a whip, she'll turn around when she sees you walking out to her.

[dodib]

Oh I know she thinks she is dominent--more so with my daughter although sheis being really good about not letting her get away with stuff. Not to mention she is 4 and only handled for 7 months

[jolene.fargo]

Originally Posted by dodib

Oh I know she thinks she is dominent--more so with my daughter although sheis being really good about not letting her get away with stuff. Not to mention she is 4 and only handled for 7 months

You got it, she is trying her placement in your herd. Better to nip it in the butt (so to speak!) right away!

I added to my above message, hope it helps!

[dodib]

thanks.....

[cameo05]

I would not wati until she kicked out, THe minute that butt turned to me, there would be consequesnces. Not exceptible at all. Good luck with her, sounds like your daughter is doing a pretty good job.

[breburtch]

Originally Posted by dodib

Oh I know she thinks she is dominent--more so with my daughter although sheis being really good about not letting her get away with stuff. Not to mention she is 4 and only handled for 7 months

My only question is why would you buy a youngster thats only had 7 months handling for a child?

Exmoors tend to have a more dominent personality(atleast all the ones I've ever known)and they are strong and know it.

I wouldn't wait for her to kick out just so you can smack her as that can be dangerous plus. I would take a stick with me and when she swung her behind give her a jab with it.
Also do alot of ground work teaching her to give and move off pressure and eventually you'll have it so all you have to do is look towards or point at her hindquarters and she'll step over. She needs to know you and your daughter are the dominents ones

[Mav2007]

I had a horse that did this. My thoughts were, when he turns his butt, I'll smack it with the whip. So, I did that, and he kicked out at me with both feet. I was a little off to the side and far enough away that he didn't get me, but it was still too close for comfort. I quickly trashed that idea and instead, I bumped up his round pen work. Lot's of yielding the hindquarters and changing direction with halter/lead and then I took the halter/lead off and did the same exercises. Now, he walks up to me in the pasture. I also was diligent about proper leading, when I walked faster, he better keep up, if I stopped he better stop. I think the fine tuning of the groundwork is what eliminated his butt showing problem.

also, if I remember correctly, your daughter isn't that young so she shouldn't have much trouble getting this pony trained.

[dodib]

Yeah my daughter is 14 and pretty skilled actually. She loves this pony and wanted one that she could finish on her own......
I have had other horses that would test when you first brought them home so I do not think this situation is any different or that my daughter is out horsed....... she handles herself very well.
When we bought her--2 weeks ago--- we were told she bucked if asked to canter and would buck if her butt was touched AND you couldnt' touch her ears. Well she canters on cue now(with no bucking)-- she can have her butt touched either on the ground or while riding and my daughter can rub her anywhere, including her ears. She is still kinda leary of me though...................
My daughter has even started taking her over some small jumps.
Other than the moods(kicking out) which are really not very often--and she paws some when tied(drives me crazy) she is doing really well. And its nothing I am doing my daughter is doing it all.............

PS:How many have you seen?? There are only about 50-100 in the states all together and only about 1000 worldwide

[breburtch]

I've handled 10 purebreds and about 15 that were exmoor crosses.
I've also talked to a breeder of exmoors and she said that they tend to be dominent and not always the greatest kids ponies even though books say they are

[dodib]

Wow thats cool you have seen so many. Where is the breeder?
yes she is more dominant than some--but so far is working out good for my daughter. i would not put a complete beginner in her thats for sure

[jolene.fargo]

Originally Posted by Mav2007

I had a horse that did this. My thoughts were, when he turns his butt, I'll smack it with the whip. So, I did that, and he kicked out at me with both feet. I was a little off to the side and far enough away that he didn't get me, but it was still too close for comfort. I quickly trashed that idea and instead, I bumped up his round pen work.

I did that before too and got both barrels coming my way! It may work for some horses but others think they are under attack and will kick out.

That's another reason why I suggested not hitting her first when she turns her bum but to first work with her under halter and then without so that she gets the idea of 'move your bum.' Usually this stops them from turning their bum to you in the pasture but for a quick reminder, use the lunge whip to ask her to move her bum, this shouldn't be threatening and you should get a good result rather than a flat out kick. If she does kick, she deserves a smack with the whip and more ground work.

Your daughter sounds old enough and smart enough to deal with this girl!

[breburtch]

Originally Posted by dodib

Wow thats cool you have seen so many. Where is the breeder?
yes she is more dominant than some--but so far is working out good for my daughter. i would not put a complete beginner in her thats for sure

Not all the ones I've seen were registered not sure why considering there sire and dams were registered.
The breeder was a canadian breeder..and I believe the only one but not sure can't remember where abouts she was and haven't talked to her in over 3 years I heard from a friend(that owns one the women had bred) she's not breeding purebreds anymore that she's crossing them with bigger more refined breds for sport type horses not sure if thats the truth or not though

[dodib]

They get inspected and if they have anything that is considered a flaw they cannot be registered OR maybe the breeder didn't have the foals inspected so they could be
Thanks for the ideas all -- I will have my daughter start workign her that way--everytime BEFORE riding. ya know the riding part is the most fun to kids her age.............

[EquineAlberta]

Is it dominance or a personal space issue? What behaviour does your mare exhibit before she turns her bum to you? If her head comes up and her ears go up/stiff, then it is a personal space issue...you are coming into her space before she is comfortable. If her ears are pinned and her head turned to you, it is dominance.

You will not fix the personal space issue by whipping her in the feild, you will only reinforce her need for space. Gentle Round pen work, and approach and retreat work in the paddock (retreat when her head comes up and ears get stiff...before she turns her bum) will increase her trust in you, and decrease her need for personal space.

If the horse wasn't handled until older, then she likely had a HUGE personal space bubble around her that was suddenly invaded and this can cause long term issues if you don't address them in a kind and meaningful way.

If she is indeed trying to be dominant, then I agree force/punishment may be needed.

Karen

[Logan-24-]

Originally Posted by Mav2007

I had a horse that did this. My thoughts were, when he turns his butt, I'll smack it with the whip. So, I did that, and he kicked out at me with both feet. I was a little off to the side and far enough away that he didn't get me, but it was still too close for comfort.

I did that before, too. It was a feeding issue, she'd always turn her butt around and act like she was going to kick. I took a crop in with me with a bag on the end and she stopped. But when I went in without it she did it again, finally she pricked my last nerve and I threw her feed bucket n' grain at her... She never did it again

[GreyDot]

I see a couple of issues here... first of all, as already pointed out, ponies are often seen as good mounts for a child, but are, in fact, often too willful for a young rider, especially one that is more timid. I rode for a New Forest breeder many years ago, and grew to loathe the little beasts, because you just could not truly relax on them. They always tried to be one step ahead of you, so you'd have to be two steps ahead of them. Also, and I'd hate to generalize with breed, but I've also heard just as brebutch said - that Exmoors CAN be a bit more dominant/willful than other breeds. Something like big Shetlands, apparently

Second, you want the pony's head to you. At all times. Since someone else did the initial backing work with the pony, it's hard to say exactly what they did, and how much or how little respect they insisted on getting from the pony. So, you're in the unfortunate position of having to re-establish good habits and break bad ones. The pony also might just be one of those horses that instinctively responds by kicking first, and thinking second.

To keep things safe for your daughter, I'd start by having YOU work with the pony, until it knows what's what. It may not be a bad idea to just start with a little bribery - it never hurts - and maybe have a piece of carrot or cookie with you when you go to get her. As a basic first skill, you need to teach her to come to you HEAD-FIRST - not butt-first. Teach her the 'come' command, just as you would with a dog. This is something that takes time to teach, but is well-worth it. Start with a treat and lots of praise, then progress to a 'touch nose to fist' before giving the treat and praise (do NOT have the treat in the fist you're holding out, keep the treats in your other hand, behind your back), and then go to sporadic (unpredictable) treats and lots of praise. This will help the pony perform the skill all the time, because she'll never know whether she'll get the treat or not, but will still want either the treat or the praise, since she will know that they often come together. This also puts her head to you - and then you can snap on the lead rope while she's munching on her treat and getting loved on. Although many people argue against turning a horse out with a halter, for safety reasons I am not a big fan of bare-headed turnout. It's also a major pain in the butt, having to get a halter on a horse who does not want to be haltered - especially if their natural response to being asked to do something the don't want to do is to kick. So, I'd just leave a halter on her 24/7. Make sure it's a well-fitting one, with a leather break-away crown-piece, but just leave it on. You might even use a 12" 'catch-tab', a piece of lead rope left permanently snapped to the ring under the halter's chin, like for a foal, to make life easier.

Second, the 'turning of butt' issue. Keep a dressage whip handy, or a driving whip. Anything that is long enough to keep you out of reach and yet get the message across. She should start coming to you readily, head-first, if you've done the 'come' training. But, if she ever 'forgets' - THE SECOND that butt starts to swing towards you, step to the side and tap, saying 'over'. Stay out of the reach of her feet, because some kickers will lash out at a whip if it touches their hind legs or their rump. If she continues to turn, and a foot so much as INCHES to kick, that butt gets smacked HARD, along with a firm "NO" or "DON'T YOU DARE", or something similar. The thought of EVER lifting a foot at a human should not even enter the pony's mind - or consequences will happen. So, really, really SOUND like you mean it, so that it will have a moment of fear for its life. It might sound mean, to do this, but it has learned a habit at some point, a dangerous one, and now you have to break it. There is no truly easy or pleasant way of doing that.

Lastly, it's wonderful that your daughter knows enough to try to discipline the pony in the arena - but this sounds like something that I'd have an adult do, until the pony knows what is expected of it (and what is NOT, EVER acceptable), just for safety's sake.

[dodib]

Well we haven;'t had that issue with her since my daughter round penned the heck out of her. We do not hit her at all-- I read someone posts saying it won't be cured by whipping her all over the pasture.... we do not nor have we ever hit her---we run her in the pasture if she is being a witch--until she comes back nicely...
She really shows no warning that I can see before hand--as you walk up to her she will turn her butt at you--then kick-- its a respect thing definatly!!
This pony does not like me at all(although she respects me adn doesn't kick at me)--I do not work with her at all--she is my daughters horse, and I don't believe my daughter is in grave danger so she can work with her --and work through the issues
Oh and i dont' believe in turning the horses out with halters on--can be too dangerous and my horses are very easy to halter--even the pony 99% of the time
Thanks for the ideas

[Crookedblaze]

Wow Greydot, great post. I agree 100%.