Spurs and Bits ( a soap box )

[David]

I know at first glance everyone will think that this is not a training issue, spurs and bits are actually tack but I want to talk about spurs and bits as training tools and the difference in the way they are used today as opposed to 100 years ago.


First ... Spurs

I have seen a lot of references on here and heard a lot of references in person to people being opposed to the use of spurs. Why?

I know everyone associates spurring a horse with driving knives into their sides but think about it this way. If you were asleep and someone was trying to wake you up, would you rather they poke you in the side with one finger or punch you in the side with their fist. It's the same principle and anyone who has been using spurs for any amount of time knows this and actually feels that they are more humane. I mean think about it from the point of view of how hard you use them...ride 10 hours on a lazy horse with no spurs and your legs are gonna be tired from all that kicking ( imagine how the horse's side feels) ride 10 hours on that same horse with spurs and your legs won't be as tired because you are just barely moving them to get the horse woke up and moving. The principle is that you are applying pressure to a much smaller area and can therefore apply much less pressure. I know I have seen horses with "spur tracks" down their sides and no I don't agree with this but that is a result of improper use of the tool, it is not something that happens everytime a horse is spurred. I have also seen horses with whip cuts but no one wants to throw away the longe whip, so why do spurs get such a bad name?

Now for Bits...

I can't even count how many times I've heard, get a stronger bit that'll fix him. Why is it that in today's world of high education and internet "enlightenment" that we can't do the things that our predecessors could do 100 years ago. You know there was a time that a horse was started in a snaffle bit and ridden in a snaffle bit ( or bosal --not a mechanical hackamore) until that horse could do everything it was asked, that horse was then graduated to a signal bit so that it could be asked to do the same things only the asking was done more gently ( think lighter hands). Today, it seems the reverse has become true, horses are started in as "strong" a bit as necessary and then graduated to a snaffle, or if riding in a snaffle at the first sign of trouble out comes the leverage bit. Used to be at the first sign of trouble the snaffle came back out.


Conclusions:

I would like to see how many people can justify why spurs are "the debil" ( as Bobby Beauchamp's momma would say) and how did you come up with that justification? If they were so bad why did people who's lives depended on their horses use spurs for so many years? Knights, Crusaders, Cavalrymen, Cowboys, Canadian Mounted Policemen, today's famous horsetrainers even use them. I mean if Pat Parrelli ( the gentlest horse trainer in the world ) uses spurs how can they be bad? Buck Branneman, Craig Cameron and even Ray Hunt ( I saw a picture of him on his horse with his big ole Califonio spurs on) use spurs and I garuantee you won't find any of their horses all marked up like some one hit them with a stick wrapped in barbed wire.

Now some people may notice that I highlighted the terms signal and leverage in the bits paragraph, what's the difference between them? About 100 years, see they are different names for the same bits, you look up signal bits ( if you can even find the term on the net) and you'll curb bits and spoon bits. Look up leverage bits and you'll see the same thing. The main difference is in how people percieve them and the difference in perception causes a difference in usage. Fortunately, this is ( I believe ) in the process of being dispelled thanks to things like knowledgable trainers being showcased on public television, weekend clinics and equine message boards ( had to throw that one in) where people discuss pros and cons of their actions before they act.


So here's the part that makes this a discussion instead of a blog lol. Someone convince me why I shouldn't use spurs. As for the bit part, that's just a pet peeve of mine but please comment on it, I would be interested to hear what people think about that opinion. I do know that most of the people on this forum are not represented by the "get a stronger bit, that'll fix him" mentality.

Hmmm...maybe this should have been a vent

[gbarmranch]

Just a question David.. how long have you been training.. and do you offer those services for people who may need help...

ETA: I agree with your thoughts David.. didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't - and good trainers are hard to find.. Just thought maybe you could open your doors to some who may want the help..

[David]

I have been on horses my whole life. I have been training since I was about 12 (supervised and instructed by my uncle) and training on my own since about 18 ( when I joined the Marine Corps and started fixing problems for people who owned horses near the bases I was on) I do offer my services ( on a limited basis as I am employed full time and have a family, my own horses and am enrolled in college) to people who need help. I started all of Huckabuck's horses (except one he recently purchased but I think I'm going to be working on her to get her gaiting properly in the near future) and I offered mereliz ( I hope I spelled that right) to go on a ride with her to see if I could offer suggestions for her horse who doesn't want to stop.

As a point of reference I am 28 yrs old ( so that puts me about 10 years of training on my own, well really more than that but I won't count the times I could have had help but didn't need it). All told I have probably started some where between 80 and 100 horses and resolved issues with many more than that. You can ask Huckabuck how the horses I start turn out but to give a better example. I sold a 4yr old trail horse this spring for $1500.00 that I started and rode last year, to an absolute beginner ( I had to keep the horse while he fenced in a place to keep her that's how new to horses he was). That horse had good conformation and she was registered but there were no outstanding horses in her pedigree. I'm sure you know how hard it is to get decent money for a horse these days and, the best part is the guy asked me to sell the horse...she wasn't even for sale...because of the training I had put into her.

Sorry to be so long winded, I just wanted to give you some idea of where all this is coming from.

[gbarmranch]

We are the same way.. have been around critters forever.. and used to could do all that first 30 day riding stuff.. now we limit it to the foundation ground work, and the finishing after those first 25 rides or so... getting too old at 50 plus to start those greenies under saddle anymore.. Been at it for a long time..

Do you offer outside training.. I know that we are always asked if we know of someone, and there are not many around anymore that do this.. It would be great to have someone to recommend...

Ah, to still be 28 and bouncable..

[ToveroMom]

Well not sure exactly what you are driving at.
But Spurs I have no issue with..as well as curb bits or snaffles...It is the NUT holding them on that I take issue with sometimes.
As long as we are using old time terms-you used to have to earn your spurs[and not just knights ] Now I see people wandering around with no decent seat and no earthly control of their legs and they are wearing spurs! Learn to ride-develop a good seat-THEN spurs. If you keep your rear ON the horse by gripping with your legs..you do not need them,even humane spurs.
Bits-I have a personal problem with people who rave about snaffles being the "kindest" bit...yeah if you have decent hands..I have seen many a horse ripped with a 'gentle" snaffle.
Hands/legs and seat...all are important. A SERVICEABLE set of spurs or a moderate bit-regardless of whether it is curb or snaffle-is not a bad thing-if the rider is trained properly.

[Luvridn]

I agree with you 100% David....I absolutely hate the "stronger bit" mentality.

So many people don't understand that leverage bits are meant for finished or near finished horses. I know a lot of people who use them as a crutch because they don't want to bother improving their riding or spend the time training. What really bugs me, and this I know will open a can of worms, is gaited horses being ridden on contact in long shanked bits. Sorry, but I don't like to see that.

As far as spurs, I think they are fine if you know how to control your legs.

[David]

[quote=gbarmranch;1341568]We are the same way.. have been around critters forever.. and used to could do all that first 30 day riding stuff.. now we limit it to the foundation ground work, and the finishing after those first 25 rides or so... getting too old at 50 plus to start those greenies under saddle anymore.. Been at it for a long time..

Do you offer outside training.. I know that we are always asked if we know of someone, and there are not many around anymore that do this.. It would be great to have someone to recommend...

Ah, to still be 28 and bouncable.. [/QUOTE]

And well padded...lol

I do some outside training but limited as discussed in PM.


Tmom... I agree with you that the problem is normally the rider ( if they can be called that) and I don't have a problem with any of these tools when used properly by a person who know's how to use them. My problem is the method of use. Since my uncle was the local go to guy before going to the vet(we all lived on the same farm when I was a kid), you would be surprised at the injuries I have seen. I agree idiots can hurt horses without the aid of strong bits or spurs but I think they are both getting bad reputations because they are being misused. I may have been unclear but the point of my post was that perhaps we should go back to the old ways of learning to use a tool before we (mis)use it and not blaming the tools for the abuse of the user.


Luvridn
As for gaited horses being ridden on contact with long shank bits ( I'm a gaited horse person) there again I think you're talking about misuse of the tool. Those long shank bits are signal bits and are good tools when used properly. ( if you look at my avatar my wife is using one of those bits in the picture, she didn't completely understand that bit so we went to a snaffle for a while(and wonder bit) and now, almost two years after that picture was taken, she is in a shorter shanked walking horse bit). The being ridden on contact is actually more to do with seat than bit ( when acheived properly) and the tight rein is really just slack taken out of the rein so that signals can be smaller. The ideal in the Gaited community is to cue the horse without being seen, therefore the slack is kept out of the reins but that doesn't mean constantly pulling on the horses mouth.

[Slim Pikkens]

I'll go with David also and would like to add a little info on spurs. There is a western spur called the Humane spur that is anything but. It has a shank and a round ball on the end. The old time cowboys used spurs with large rowels that turned. These were merely brushed against the horses sides and the rowel would roll. The humane spurs can break a horse's rib if used in a punishing manner and this seems to be the spur of choice for those who use them as punishment. A spur is a tool for refinement in training.

[David]

Slim, you bring up a good point that I forgot to add to my post about spurs. I have seen a lot of young guys riding horses in Bull Riding Spurs, they are calling them clickers. These spurs don't turn like the "old timey" spurs do, the rowel rotates to a point where it makes a clicking noise then it won't turn further. These spurs are made for holding against a bull's side ( which has much thicker hide and more protection for the rib than a horse) not jabbing a horse with. It just goes back to the proper tool for the job.

I also catch a lot of flack (I get made fun of ) because I only use spurs with jinglebobs. Most folks stop giving me heck though when I point out that I only have to move my foot to cue my horse, I don't even touch them with the spur half the time. If I'm just trying to pick up the pace a little shake to make the jingle gets them going.

[NoniMe]

Why don't I use spurs? Two reasons. One is that I have no business in spurs; my seat is not developed enough to know that I wouldn't accidentally wonk Tango...and second, Tango does much better without spurs. As Tmom said, I haven't yet "earned" spurs.

While I agree that I would rather be woken with a poke rather than a kick, I would rather not need to sleep altogether. In other words, I'm working on his attention drifting issues and not putting a bandaid on it. The issue is him 'sleeping', so I'm developing ways to keep him involved and active while I'm riding...sleep is for later. We've come to a point where I simply slightly wiggle one rein, and he comes 'back' to life.

As for bit, Tango rides in a french link snaffle. Tango has issues with his mouth, and I went in a hack for a while; we've recently transitioned back to the snaffle, and he is responsive and quite happy with the bit we're using. Again, I don't have an educated enough seat/hands to work in a harsher bit, and he is nowhere near finished...so I am staying with the basics for the time being.

As with all tools, there is a purpose. But it's knowing when to use them that seems difficult. I know I am not ready for spurs, and I also know that less is more when it comes to Tango and bits.

Those're my reasons behind my choices.

Best-
Noni

[ToveroMom]

Well with that David-I very much agree.
I use the ball/humane spurs-the ones Slim alluded to-and I use them delicately and just for nudges.
They are just the ones I prefer.
My new mare has come late to riding and I have acquired some bumper spurs for her. She is sometimes reluctant to cues and I think those will do better with her.
It is definately case by case.

[sli92]

I very much agree with most of what you wrote, and it is VERY well written.
Although to play the devils advocate(not really because its on the same path, but not mentioned yet)... What about this bits issue.
Some horses are not ready for bits when they are started. If you are going for the "no more "refined" bit until the horse is ready" theroy, then why are horses not started in halters or hackamores until they are 'ready' for the bit and more refinement that the bit brings?

Not trying to butt heads here, I just want to see peoples opinions on this thought...

[ToveroMom]

By hackamore-do you mean bosal?

[David]

Noni-I have to say I applaud your choices and I think this is very sound reasoning. I'm sure we all could stand to work on our seat at least a little but I'm glad that you realize that at this point spurs and cub bits would hinder you more than help. The reason I want some one to convince me not to use spurs is because I see people posting that they are unequivically opposed to the use of spurs at all times. Like I said I understand why you don't use spurs at this time and I think that is the right decision, but I didn't see you ruling out the use of spurs in the future.

As for the sleeping issue, I used that as an example of a time when a human has no forwarning of what is coming and can do nothing to protect themselves. I didn't mean to imply spurs are used to wake horses as they should be paying attention to you to begin with, which I understand sometimes takes some work so don't think I'm saying bad things about your guy.

[dreamcleaner]

Anything can be dangerous in the wrong hands. I don't use spurs, I use a snaffle or bitless. Why, jeez thing of the damage I could do. I do use a crop if need be. But I figure if I hit him as hard as I could I couldn't hit as hard as another horse would kick. Usually just a tap, but harder if need be. But Riley is still learning to go forward.

I let John ride Riley in spurs. I had someone else once want to ride Liz in spurs to get her more forward. N'uh uh, no way would I have let this person use spurs on one of my horses. With John they are a tool to help, with this other person, I figured it was a crutch for them. (they could ride btw, but....)

There are tools I have read about, spurs, crops, bits, chain over noses/mouths etc. I won't use them (besides crop) because "I" can cause damage. AND I don't need such fine tuned animals. I've seen good western riders and watched their feet and spurs, by a movement so slight barely can be seen, the horse does something they have been asked to do.

[David]

Actually Sli92, I mentioned that horses used to be started in "snaffles (or bosals)" Bosals were the original hackamores, now the term hackmore brings those mechanical nose and jaw breakers to mind. I do infact start horses in halters ( I even tie my own rope halters to start them in because I can get a better fit and have more adjustment with them) because to me it's a more natural transition for the horse. The learn to give to the pressure of the halter during halter breaking, so when it comes time to start them riding I just apply pressure to the halter in a different way. Once the horse will follow all of those cues then they can be started in bit. <--that's strictly my opinion and the way I work. I'm not saying it's THE correct way or the only way but it's my way.

[redboy]

The same applies to the use of a crop. I always ride with a crop. I consider it, much like CA, an extention of my arm. I don't BEAT my horse with it, BUT, my horse also knows that I will tap him with it to reinforce the idea to MOVE, forward, backward, to the side. He is also desensitized to it, and knows that I'll wave it around on his body to shoo the flies along. It's Not a BAD thing, it's a tool, as are spurs and different types of bits.
But it can be a very bad thing in the wrong hands with the wrong intentions. Redboy

[redboy]

PS..., And I know people who are so appalled by the very idea, but yet, can't even get their horse to cross thru a puddle. AND, let the horse determine that its his/ her choice, thereby NEVER learning to walk calmly thru water, etc. RB

[NoniMe]

Originally Posted by David

Noni-I have to say I applaud your choices and I think this is very sound reasoning. I'm sure we all could stand to work on our seat at least a little but I'm glad that you realize that at this point spurs and cub bits would hinder you more than help. The reason I want some one to convince me not to use spurs is because I see people posting that they are unequivically opposed to the use of spurs at all times. Like I said I understand why you don't use spurs at this time and I think that is the right decision, but I didn't see you ruling out the use of spurs in the future.

No, I'm not ruling them out. What I'm saying is that until I'm capable of using them without any potential to harm, I will wait. By then, I hope they're just for 'show.' (LOL) as we will have addressed both rider and horse issues completely.

As for the sleeping issue, I used that as an example of a time when a human has no forwarning of what is coming and can do nothing to protect themselves. I didn't mean to imply spurs are used to wake horses as they should be paying attention to you to begin with, which I understand sometimes takes some work so don't think I'm saying bad things about your guy.

Of course you're not. I would never have thought you were! LOL...I was continuing your analogy, and giving my example to show where Tango's problems lay; working on the cause rather than the symptom at this point is far more benficial than employing a tool (at least for us).

Tango "nods off," though, and we're working on maintaining attention and developing 'interesting' things so he hasn't got an excuse. It will take time,
but he already has improved enormously. We have a ways to go, but we're getting there.

And again, I know you weren't talking smack about my guy...no worries!

Best-
Noni

[sli92]

Originally Posted by David

Actually Sli92, I mentioned that horses used to be started in "snaffles (or bosals)" Bosals were the original hackamores, now the term hackmore brings those mechanical nose and jaw breakers to mind. I do infact start horses in halters ( I even tie my own rope halters to start them in because I can get a better fit and have more adjustment with them) because to me it's a more natural transition for the horse. The learn to give to the pressure of the halter during halter breaking, so when it comes time to start them riding I just apply pressure to the halter in a different way. Once the horse will follow all of those cues then they can be started in bit. <--that's strictly my opinion and the way I work. I'm not saying it's THE correct way or the only way but it's my way.

Well, I must say I like your way. I make my own rope halters as well... and thumbs up to you! So many people now a days dont want to waste(?!) the time on the basics, it makes me a little sad.

And yes, by hackamore I do not mean those mechanical devices, I am talking more along the lines of Bosal's and "rope halter type" bosal's...
Some of the bitless bridles are good as well.