doing no stirrup work

kshnooks · 04-21-2008, 07:34 PM

I have been starting to do more no stirrup work in my lessons and on my own to help strengthen my leg. However, I have a question about leg position because I have heard and read conflicting things...my current instructor tells me to grip with my whole leg (including my heel) to help hold onto the horse. Another instructor (in lessons past) has told me to stretch my leg down and yet another (I've been through a few barns

) has told me to hold it in the same position as it would be if it were in the stirrup. Which is correct? I found the first easiest but the horse I was riding is pretty dead sided so it didn't encourage him to go faster. However, in a more sensitive horse, I think it would. Also, lifting my heels up I would think would cause my leg to shift back and throw my weight forward?
Too many opinions for my feeble beginners brain!! So...now I'm coming to you guys

Oh, and same question applies to riding bareback...

BarnBum · 04-21-2008, 07:41 PM

English or Western ..... I guess either way, its the same. The way I was taught, you want to keep your leg in the same position as if it was in a stirrup. You want to "grip" from your knee up <basically with your thighs> and leave your lower leg OFF the horse. If you are posting, your are posting bascially off your knee. This takes muscle and time to build muscle. When I was taking my lessons (English) I would have open sores on the inside of my knee after each lesson. My instructor was tough, but she was awesome !!

EquineAlberta · 04-21-2008, 08:03 PM

In an english saddle and on a sensitive horse, gripping with the knees and thighs may make it stop as you will be pinching its shoulder. Most of my horses (other than beginner horses) are trained to halt or half halt as a response to pinching with knees/thighs. Likely not so much an issue in a thicker western saddle or with a horse that is trained to tolerate having pressure here.

I agree with the stretch the leg down instructor for sitting gaits; absorb the motion with your core. Lift up your toes to maitain a heels down position...trying to press your heels down will bring your leg off the horse.

For posting you do have to use your thighs and calves, but be careful not to pinch...think more of hugging, using more calves than thighs. On a horse that is super sensitive to lower leg, you may have to use more thighs/knee, but keep in mind you may be pinching the horses shoulders if he tries to stop/slow.

I actually think your current instructor may be trying to tell you the same thing as the second way, just with different wording...stretching your leg down around the horse will wrap the entire leg on for holding power.

I don't think you should try to hold your leg a raised as with stirrups as that will likely make you grip with your knees. If you grip with your knees, you will keep getting pushed higher and higher off the horse (trot or canter pushes you up, knees grip higher, next step pushes you up again so you again pinch higher and so on).

An easy way to consider it is just don't use bones to grip; only muscles (so no knees or heels), and keep thinking about stretching your toes up and letting your heels drag in the sand.

Karen

Slim Pikkens · 04-22-2008, 07:55 PM

When you stretch your legs down you will be in more of a dressage position. Squeezing with your entire leg tells the horse to move forward faster and faster. Part of this exercise is improving balance and moving better with the horse. You should be on a lunge line when doing this work so someone else can control the horse while you focus on your body.

greygirls · 04-22-2008, 08:17 PM

I was told to hold your leg as you would in a stirrup. She never told me what to grip with...I instinctively use my thighs though.

visionquest · 04-23-2008, 07:27 AM

Balance is the key here. You should be sitting relaxed with the inside of your thigh and the inside of your calf resting lightly on your horse. Invision being able to stand up and having your horse being able to walk out from underneath you. This means your leg needs to be longgggg with your toes up. If your grip hard with your thighs or calfs you'll tend to force your seat up off the horses back. You will grip lightly while posting but try to allow your heel to drop when you rise. You don't need to get your butt high off the horses back while posting, you'd be working too hard. Keep your eyes forward, your chest open and shoulders square, plus BREATHE.

NoniMe · 04-23-2008, 10:13 AM

EA said:

Quote:

Lift up your toes to maitain a heels down position...trying to press your heels down will bring your leg off the horse.

and

Quote:

An easy way to consider it is just don't use bones to grip; only muscles (so no knees or heels)...

Can I just say that I read this the other day, and yesterday used both of these *(while using stirrups, so I 'cheated'), and had much better form and ease of riding? Tango appreciated the change, too.

Best-
Noni

kshnooks · 04-23-2008, 11:11 PM

well I tried all three on my lease horse yesterday and definitely found keeping my leg longer felt the best. I only did posting without stirrups for a little while 'cus my thighs started screaming at me to stop

Sitting trot without stirrups I can do...its the posting that kills me!!

HorseDork · 04-23-2008, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kshnooks

well I tried all three on my lease horse yesterday and definitely found keeping my leg longer felt the best. I only did posting without stirrups for a little while 'cus my thighs started screaming at me to stop

Sitting trot without stirrups I can do...its the posting that kills me!!

honestly, its not supposed to feel good

. it burns really bad, makes your eyes tear up, and rubs holes the size of golf balls in your legs. all of my jeans/riding pants have "spots" on the calves from riding tight...but wow, when you can do everything with you leg in the correct position no stirrups it is amazing...plus then you dont have to go to the gym

.

Luvridn · 04-24-2008, 12:57 AM

Grrrrr you people make me green...lol....I have been trying so hard to be able to post bareback...after 4 strides I am done! I have been trying so so hard but after a winter of little riding my legs are jello! Now...clarify what it means to have a 'long' leg please???

TikiGator · 04-24-2008, 11:02 AM

Ok first off you should NOT grip with your knees! EVER!

Cardinal sin of riding, you WILL get dumped. Your leg should be stretched down, sinking all your weight in your HEEL, but keeping the back of your calf on your horse. That's what half chaps are for, if you are hanging on properly you should have nice horse hair all over the sides of your half chaps!

Your leg should be in the same position as if you were riding in a saddle with stirrups. With a straight line going from shoulder-hip-heel. You should have even pressure distributed down your entire leg, you can grip with your thigh and should be tight in the tack, but that is NOT your seatbelt. Your lower leg is what will keep you on the horse. I should be able to walk upto you when you're sitting on your horse and not be able to pull your lower leg off your horse, your knee off your horse, or your thigh off your horse, you should be tight as glue. You should also be able to walk/trot/canter with a dollar bill (or a flower, or anything else you can find) behind your lower calf and not allow it to fall.

Here are a couple photos to give you an idea. Granted on the pony I am a little big for so my leg goes lower than his sides, but I am still reaching down thru my heel with the back of my calf on the horse.

Here's a jumping pic (excuse my release, it's horrid as I knew he was going to overjump....and he did...

) but it gives the same suggestion that your lower leg should be ON your horse at all times, that is what you should be "hanging on" when you're riding. Even over a fence, sinking into the heel and gripping with the lower leg. If you grip with your knee, your lower leg will slide back.

Riding bareback helps BIG TIME with balance, and it will help strengthen your leg. Posting also helps tremendously. I think sometimes seeing an example is a great learning tool, I hope this helps you!

kshnooks · 04-24-2008, 01:32 PM

Thanks Tikigator, that horse in your first and last pics is gorgeous! I am a little chicken to try bareback but I know I should since everyone says it helps your leg and balance...question how can you tell if you are gripping with your knee as opposed to your inner thigh? I don't think I grip ONLY with my knee but I obviously use it since I keep my whole leg against the horse.

TikiGator · 04-24-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kshnooks

Thanks Tikigator, that horse in your first and last pics is gorgeous! I am a little chicken to try bareback but I know I should since everyone says it helps your leg and balance...question how can you tell if you are gripping with your knee as opposed to your inner thigh? I don't think I grip ONLY with my knee but I obviously use it since I keep my whole leg against the horse.

Thanks for the compliment on my boy, my crazy stallion

Bareback is great, get a nice bareback pad though, it's more comfortable and will help you stay on the horse (it's VERY slippery without a pad, and you'll be introuble if your horse has withers!

)

As long as you are gripping with your calf, it doesn't matter if you are gripping with your knee/thigh.

I make all of my students do the flower game....I go pick 2 flowers with stems...place them under their calf and they have to hold the flowers at the walk/trot/canter (depend on their level of riding). Your lower leg is what keeps you on the horse. Your knee/thigh will keep you tight in the tack, but for example, when you are riding in 2-point, you can't grip with your thigh, and you should NOT be gripping with your knee....if you are gripping with your knee, you won't be able to sink your weight into your heels.

Try doing some 2-point exercises at the walk and trot (with a saddle/stirrups) and work on sinking all your weight into your heel. Then go ride without stirrups, and practice keeping your lower leg the same. Let us know how you turn out!

CatsTack · 04-25-2008, 02:44 PM

Awesome descriptions Ricoman & TikiGator!

I love to put my students through this wonderful torture!!! Seriously though, it is a great to improve a rider's balance, seat, and rhythm.

I feel the leg with no stirrup should hand a bit longer with the toes up and the heels down. Riding with the toes up really works the muscles specific to riding. The leg shouldn't grip hard, it's more like what someone (Ricoman, I think) said above. . .a hug. The whole leg should be 'hugging' the horsey.

Once you feel confident at the walk you can start to do things with your arms. This really helps the independent seat. After you're confident of this at the walk try the trot, and so on.

There's all sorts of games you can play to test yourself too, just use your imagination and have fun.

Good luck

gbarmranch · 04-25-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HorseDork

honestly, its not supposed to feel good

. it burns really bad, makes your eyes tear up, and rubs holes the size of golf balls in your legs. all of my jeans/riding pants have "spots" on the calves from riding tight...but wow, when you can do everything with you leg in the correct position no stirrups it is amazing...plus then you dont have to go to the gym

.

Oh yes.. I have had blood dripping down my legs before after lessons.. and huge sores on the inside of my knees.. Blue kote does work well on those by the way..

Foot is in the same position as in the stirrup - heel, knee and shoulder aligned..

Try jumping that way..

FoxMartini · 04-25-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TikiGator

Ok first off you should NOT grip with your knees! EVER!

Cardinal sin of riding, you WILL get dumped. Your leg should be stretched down, sinking all your weight in your HEEL, but keeping the back of your calf on your horse. That's what half chaps are for, if you are hanging on properly you should have nice horse hair all over the sides of your half chaps!

Your leg should be in the same position as if you were riding in a saddle with stirrups. With a straight line going from shoulder-hip-heel. You should have even pressure distributed down your entire leg, you can grip with your thigh and should be tight in the tack, but that is NOT your seatbelt. Your lower leg is what will keep you on the horse. I should be able to walk upto you when you're sitting on your horse and not be able to pull your lower leg off your horse, your knee off your horse, or your thigh off your horse, you should be tight as glue. You should also be able to walk/trot/canter with a dollar bill (or a flower, or anything else you can find) behind your lower calf and not allow it to fall.

Riding bareback helps BIG TIME with balance, and it will help strengthen your leg. Posting also helps tremendously. I think sometimes seeing an example is a great learning tool, I hope this helps you!

Great pics for example. DO NOT GRIP WITH YOUR KNEES, this brings your contact off the horse and makes it easier to come off quick, plus it puts bad pressure on your knees and you will develop strains and pains later on in life. Instead, just keep your legs on the horse like you would in the saddle, your lower leg will keep you on the horse like it does when your in the saddle.

Relax your position, it should be just like riding in a saddle. Posting can be hard but let your horse help you by going with his flow, the horse can help push you up and back down in the posting with his rhythm. Heels should be down with toes up as well for balance (not forced hard), this will help your balance. Toes down will almost ensure that you tip forward and come off your horse should he stop abrupt. Skilled western riders relax right down to the toes and do have their toes lower than their heels, the key here is to not put pressure to force your toes down cause if you do and your horse stops short, your upper body will tip forward.

English and western riders should keep their position in bareback as they would in a saddle. Your balance shouldn't rely on pushing off the stirrup with the ball of your foot but rather post with the rhythm of your horse, relax and move with his movement.
AND BREATHE!! I always forget to breathe!!

gbarmranch · 04-25-2008, 03:20 PM

You are correct about the knees.. but they will bruise as you learn..

Great photos.. we should almost make this thread a sticky..

FoxMartini · 04-25-2008, 03:25 PM

That's a great idea gbarm!

gbarmranch · 04-25-2008, 03:26 PM

It is now stickified..

Rudy · 04-25-2008, 04:55 PM

I also wanted to add that depending on how the horse is trained can effect how you will/should ride bareback.

I've ridden some saddleseat horses where the last thing you want to do is to use your calves because the only time your calves are to really come in contact with their sides is a cue to do something, otherwise there should be very minimal if any contact. Use your calves to grip and you can have some seriously pissy horses. But most of the saddleseat trained horses I've ridden are not bothered by any gripping of the knees as long as it isn't all out pinching.

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04-21-2008, 07:34 PM
kshnooks Started Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 2,387	doing no stirrup work I have been starting to do more no stirrup work in my lessons and on my own to help strengthen my leg. However, I have a question about leg position because I have heard and read conflicting things...my current instructor tells me to grip with my whole leg (including my heel) to help hold onto the horse. Another instructor (in lessons past) has told me to stretch my leg down and yet another (I've been through a few barns ) has told me to hold it in the same position as it would be if it were in the stirrup. Which is correct? I found the first easiest but the horse I was riding is pretty dead sided so it didn't encourage him to go faster. However, in a more sensitive horse, I think it would. Also, lifting my heels up I would think would cause my leg to shift back and throw my weight forward? Too many opinions for my feeble beginners brain!! So...now I'm coming to you guys Oh, and same question applies to riding bareback...

04-21-2008, 07:41 PM
BarnBum Kid Safe Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sunshine State Posts: 5,851	English or Western ..... I guess either way, its the same. The way I was taught, you want to keep your leg in the same position as if it was in a stirrup. You want to "grip" from your knee up <basically with your thighs> and leave your lower leg OFF the horse. If you are posting, your are posting bascially off your knee. This takes muscle and time to build muscle. When I was taking my lessons (English) I would have open sores on the inside of my knee after each lesson. My instructor was tough, but she was awesome !!

04-21-2008, 08:03 PM
EquineAlberta Kid Safe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 6,004	In an english saddle and on a sensitive horse, gripping with the knees and thighs may make it stop as you will be pinching its shoulder. Most of my horses (other than beginner horses) are trained to halt or half halt as a response to pinching with knees/thighs. Likely not so much an issue in a thicker western saddle or with a horse that is trained to tolerate having pressure here. I agree with the stretch the leg down instructor for sitting gaits; absorb the motion with your core. Lift up your toes to maitain a heels down position...trying to press your heels down will bring your leg off the horse. For posting you do have to use your thighs and calves, but be careful not to pinch...think more of hugging, using more calves than thighs. On a horse that is super sensitive to lower leg, you may have to use more thighs/knee, but keep in mind you may be pinching the horses shoulders if he tries to stop/slow. I actually think your current instructor may be trying to tell you the same thing as the second way, just with different wording...stretching your leg down around the horse will wrap the entire leg on for holding power. I don't think you should try to hold your leg a raised as with stirrups as that will likely make you grip with your knees. If you grip with your knees, you will keep getting pushed higher and higher off the horse (trot or canter pushes you up, knees grip higher, next step pushes you up again so you again pinch higher and so on). An easy way to consider it is just don't use bones to grip; only muscles (so no knees or heels), and keep thinking about stretching your toes up and letting your heels drag in the sand. Karen __________________ New Hillside Website The Art of Praise

04-22-2008, 07:55 PM
Slim Pikkens Seasoned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,047	When you stretch your legs down you will be in more of a dressage position. Squeezing with your entire leg tells the horse to move forward faster and faster. Part of this exercise is improving balance and moving better with the horse. You should be on a lunge line when doing this work so someone else can control the horse while you focus on your body.

04-22-2008, 08:17 PM
greygirls Coming two Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ontario Posts: 1,850	I was told to hold your leg as you would in a stirrup. She never told me what to grip with...I instinctively use my thighs though. __________________ I cannot avoid compassion for all that is called life. That is the beginning & foundation of morality. -Albert Schweitzer

04-23-2008, 07:27 AM
visionquest Weanling Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Harrodsburg, KY Posts: 463	Balance is the key here. You should be sitting relaxed with the inside of your thigh and the inside of your calf resting lightly on your horse. Invision being able to stand up and having your horse being able to walk out from underneath you. This means your leg needs to be longgggg with your toes up. If your grip hard with your thighs or calfs you'll tend to force your seat up off the horses back. You will grip lightly while posting but try to allow your heel to drop when you rise. You don't need to get your butt high off the horses back while posting, you'd be working too hard. Keep your eyes forward, your chest open and shoulders square, plus BREATHE.

04-23-2008, 11:11 PM
kshnooks Started Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 2,387	well I tried all three on my lease horse yesterday and definitely found keeping my leg longer felt the best. I only did posting without stirrups for a little while 'cus my thighs started screaming at me to stop Sitting trot without stirrups I can do...its the posting that kills me!!

04-24-2008, 12:57 AM
Luvridn Long Yearling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 1,443	Grrrrr you people make me green...lol....I have been trying so hard to be able to post bareback...after 4 strides I am done! I have been trying so so hard but after a winter of little riding my legs are jello! Now...clarify what it means to have a 'long' leg please??? __________________ If your horse wants to bolt, there is probably a nut loose in the saddle! PP

04-24-2008, 11:02 AM
TikiGator Weanling Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 454	Ok first off you should NOT grip with your knees! EVER! Cardinal sin of riding, you WILL get dumped. Your leg should be stretched down, sinking all your weight in your HEEL, but keeping the back of your calf on your horse. That's what half chaps are for, if you are hanging on properly you should have nice horse hair all over the sides of your half chaps! Your leg should be in the same position as if you were riding in a saddle with stirrups. With a straight line going from shoulder-hip-heel. You should have even pressure distributed down your entire leg, you can grip with your thigh and should be tight in the tack, but that is NOT your seatbelt. Your lower leg is what will keep you on the horse. I should be able to walk upto you when you're sitting on your horse and not be able to pull your lower leg off your horse, your knee off your horse, or your thigh off your horse, you should be tight as glue. You should also be able to walk/trot/canter with a dollar bill (or a flower, or anything else you can find) behind your lower calf and not allow it to fall. Here are a couple photos to give you an idea. Granted on the pony I am a little big for so my leg goes lower than his sides, but I am still reaching down thru my heel with the back of my calf on the horse. Here's a jumping pic (excuse my release, it's horrid as I knew he was going to overjump....and he did...) but it gives the same suggestion that your lower leg should be ON your horse at all times, that is what you should be "hanging on" when you're riding. Even over a fence, sinking into the heel and gripping with the lower leg. If you grip with your knee, your lower leg will slide back. Riding bareback helps BIG TIME with balance, and it will help strengthen your leg. Posting also helps tremendously. I think sometimes seeing an example is a great learning tool, I hope this helps you! __________________ Laura at Tikigator Farm Naples, FL www.tikigatorfarm.com

04-24-2008, 01:32 PM
kshnooks Started Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 2,387	Thanks Tikigator, that horse in your first and last pics is gorgeous! I am a little chicken to try bareback but I know I should since everyone says it helps your leg and balance...question how can you tell if you are gripping with your knee as opposed to your inner thigh? I don't think I grip ONLY with my knee but I obviously use it since I keep my whole leg against the horse.

04-25-2008, 03:26 PM
gbarmranch Pasture Pet Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mayberry Posts: 32,635	It is now stickified.. __________________ http://home.earthlink.net/~vpgann Quality Foundation Quarter Horses If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what you don't like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself." Augustine of Hippo

04-25-2008, 02:44 PM
CatsTack Halter broke Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NC Posts: 125	Awesome descriptions Ricoman & TikiGator! I love to put my students through this wonderful torture!!! Seriously though, it is a great to improve a rider's balance, seat, and rhythm. I feel the leg with no stirrup should hand a bit longer with the toes up and the heels down. Riding with the toes up really works the muscles specific to riding. The leg shouldn't grip hard, it's more like what someone (Ricoman, I think) said above. . .a hug. The whole leg should be 'hugging' the horsey. Once you feel confident at the walk you can start to do things with your arms. This really helps the independent seat. After you're confident of this at the walk try the trot, and so on. There's all sorts of games you can play to test yourself too, just use your imagination and have fun. Good luck

04-25-2008, 03:20 PM
gbarmranch Pasture Pet Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mayberry Posts: 32,635	You are correct about the knees.. but they will bruise as you learn.. Great photos.. we should almost make this thread a sticky.. __________________ http://home.earthlink.net/~vpgann Quality Foundation Quarter Horses If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what you don't like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself." Augustine of Hippo

04-25-2008, 03:25 PM
FoxMartini Weanling Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada Posts: 488	That's a great idea gbarm! __________________ 'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames.' http://photojoe.webs.com - Photography at its finest!

04-25-2008, 04:55 PM
Rudy Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 979	I also wanted to add that depending on how the horse is trained can effect how you will/should ride bareback. I've ridden some saddleseat horses where the last thing you want to do is to use your calves because the only time your calves are to really come in contact with their sides is a cue to do something, otherwise there should be very minimal if any contact. Use your calves to grip and you can have some seriously pissy horses. But most of the saddleseat trained horses I've ridden are not bothered by any gripping of the knees as long as it isn't all out pinching.