doing no stirrup work

[TikiGator]

Rudy I have to disagree as far as other breeds go. I have no business giving advice as far as gaited horses, but as far as general riding goes, you should ALWAYS have contact on your horse.

Contact is what keeps you in the tack. You get loosey goosey legs, that's when you will fall off.

I tell my students to think of it like driving a car, you don't drive with your foot off the gas do you? you don't just get upto 45 mph and take your foot off the pedal.....same goes for your horse. your leg is your gas pedal (and also your seat belt!! )

If you want to slow down, you can let pressure off your leg, if you want to speed up or lengthen, you apply more pressure. but you SHOULD have contact at all times. Think about it, if you're always hanging on, you'll never fall off!

Look at pro bull riders, do you think they are hanging on with their knees? HECK NO! Watch them on TV, their legs are drapped around the bulls sides and they are HANGING ON for dear life with their ENTIRE leg. think about sitting on a barrel, you should wrap your legs around and hang on evenly with your entire leg. If you just grip with your knee, you WILL fall off. And as other have said, you will have bruised and bloody knees.

I think no-stirrup work and bareback work is an EXCELLENT took in learning balance, strenghtening your leg, and acquiring a secure seat. You learn to not rely on your stirrups for balance. Most of us start to depend on our stirrups too much. My student fell off at her lesson Thursday....was super windy, pony spooked, jumped to the side, she fell off. I went over and asked her "what happenend?" she said "I fell off " I said "well why'd you fall off?" and she said "BECAUSE I STOOD IN MY STIRRUPS"

OOOOOk then, she did the rest of her lesson (45 minute) doing walk/trot/canter transitions without stirrups. Pony spooked 3 more times with her, she stuck like glue. Why? Because she was HANGING ON!

Another GREAT game to play with multiple riders is Ride-A-Buck. We have that at the fun shows. you have to get on your horse bareback and a dollar bill is placed behind your mid-calf on each leg. Judge calls out walk........then trot.......whoa.....back.....walk.....canter.....e tc. People drop out and come into the middle when they loose both of their dollar bills. last person left with a dollar bill wins them all!!!!

[kshnooks]

so I had another lesson today where I did sitting trot and posting trot around the arena TWICE! Alright...sounds like not such a big deal but I just wanted to say after all the advice (especially Tikigators visuals ) I felt much more secure with my leg in the correct position. My instructor even commented that my leg looked good and I was keeping my toes up! Now my only problem is I feel like I am slamming my butt down too hard in the saddle because it makes a nice, ego-deflating smacking sound against the saddle LOL Time to lose some weight!

[Rudy]

Rudy I have to disagree as far as other breeds go. I have no business giving advice as far as gaited horses, but as far as general riding goes, you should ALWAYS have contact on your horse.

Contact is what keeps you in the tack. You get loosey goosey legs, that's when you will fall off.

Oh I understand. I never said you have loose legs, even when riding with no contact to the lower leg you are still to be steady in your position with quiet legs. I should be more specific and say most of the horses I've ridden that were trained for saddleseat are used in equitation classes and teach equitation riders. In saddlebred saddleseat equitation it is insane, your thighs touch the saddle, your knee touches the saddle, and maybe some of the top of your calf. The only time your lower leg is really to touch is to give the horse a cue. Saddleseat equitation is very hard on the legs, knee, hips especially, and lower back...but dang it do you ever get your legs and back get in better shape than you'd ever imagine. Your legs have to be super strong to keep the position and it takes quite awhile to build the muscles needed.

So now when you use these particular horses for bareback work you still need to try and stay near your normal position. A bit more contact through the calf is allowable but you need to be as light as possible in it while keeping most of your contact through your knee and thigh. These horses let you know full well when you are using way too much contact on your lower leg, which tends to be the normal contact level on my own horses. O_o

[Horselessnomore]

Am going to have to try the dollar bill idea except I will have to use a $5 (no more $1 or $2 here in Canada). I ride a TWH so don't have to trot, but it will be interesting. Have also tried to ride bareback a bit and it is certainly a different feeling -- I grew up riding hunter/jumper type horses and I must say it is a bit of a different feeling trying to ride a TWH bareback. Am thinking I might have to start using a piece of paper or something b/c it might get expensive with $5 flying around all over the place . I know that I will be lose a few . . . . . . .

[Amy]

I was actually riding bareback today, working on posting. Seems like when I round a corner I have trouble keeping my balance, and start slipping off the horse's back toward the rail... and in order to save my self my reflex is to grip with the inner knee. (Lucky for me my lease horse is not super-sensitive.) ANy tips to avoid this pitfall?

Also... is it supposed to be easier to cater bareback than to trot? I have no real problems with walking or transitioning from walk to canter, it's the trot that kills me.

Good thread... Makes me want to get back out there and try again with some of the pointers.

[ChevyGirl84]

Usually, you do not want to pinch with your knees and leave the lower leg off. The lower leg is what gets the horse to move, not your knees. How do you think relying on your knees is going to build lower leg muscle??? I agree about the bareback riding, it will help you.

[ChevyGirl84]

Hi there, I'm not sure why you were told to grab with your knees taking english lessons, the horse has no idea what you are asking them with your knees. they cannot feel your legs telling them what to do. As for the open sores, you were obviously not taught the correct way to ride without stirrups, you shoud never get sores if you were doing it properly.

[EquineAlberta]

As for the open sores, you were obviously not taught the correct way to ride without stirrups, you shoud never get sores if you were doing it properly.

In theory that may be true for most people, but some of us have wimpy skin and when we work our legs hard they sweat and the seams of jeans/breeches will rub raw on their own. Yesterday I got a rub on the top of my kneecap as my old Tailored Sportsmans have a seam there. Obviously I was not gripping with the top of my knee cap! Although I think your comment was made well intentionnedly, it could be taken in a discouraging way by people like me who seem to get rubs so easily. Rubs do NOT always mean you are not riding with a correct leg.

Karen

[nightvision]

Originally Posted by TikiGator

Rudy I have to disagree as far as other breeds go. I have no business giving advice as far as gaited horses, but as far as general riding goes, you should ALWAYS have contact on your horse.

Contact is what keeps you in the tack. You get loosey goosey legs, that's when you will fall off.

I hope it's ok that I'm posting on this so much later than others...

Is this discipline specific? I grew up riding English, and I was told contact with all of my leg, and to go into two-point and post off of my knees.
Then I went to college, and started riding western at the barn here, and the trainer wanted to know why I had absolutely no balance or confidence and had to grip so much with my legs He said that I shouldn't use my legs to hold on, I should be balanced and sit deep, and use my legs to cue to horse only (he trains his horses to be very, very light, and as soon as I got on and took up my typical contact zoom! we were off )
I have to say that after several months of trying it, it actually worked pretty well - it sounded impossible at first but honestly it makes more sense and the horses seemed happier to work.

[TikiGator]

Originally Posted by nightvision

I hope it's ok that I'm posting on this so much later than others...

Is this discipline specific? I grew up riding English, and I was told contact with all of my leg, and to go into two-point and post off of my knees.
Then I went to college, and started riding western at the barn here, and the trainer wanted to know why I had absolutely no balance or confidence and had to grip so much with my legs He said that I shouldn't use my legs to hold on, I should be balanced and sit deep, and use my legs to cue to horse only (he trains his horses to be very, very light, and as soon as I got on and took up my typical contact zoom! we were off )
I have to say that after several months of trying it, it actually worked pretty well - it sounded impossible at first but honestly it makes more sense and the horses seemed happier to work.

That would work great as long as you have a dead quiet horse that never sets a foot wrong. But most of is own horses that will occasionally spook or buck or throw a tantrum, and it's very simple, if you're not hanging on, you fall off. Period. Balance will only get you so far until the object you are balance on decides to unexpectedly move.

Gripping with your knees is NEVER correct. You should have equal pressure down your entire leg, but most of your 'hanging on' should come from the sides of your calf. Look at the photo in my avatar....balance would've done me NO good. and if I would've been gripping with my knees I would've been eating dirt. I hung on with my lower leg, which never moved and inch, and it in-turn saved my butt.

Riding a horse is riding a horse whether you ride bareback, english, western, whatever. Sometimes your body position will change according to discipline and style of riding. But in talking about general riding, you should drape your legs around your horse's barrel, and HANG ON!

Go ask the cowboys. Watch the PBR and see where they are gripping. There is NO space between their leg and the bulls body.

[annem]

Many moons ago, when I was a child and lived in England and started to ride, we were taught to ride gripping with our knees. We had to put leaves between our knees and the saddle to prove we were doing it correctly.

Today, this has changed. It is now as everyone else says, you use your Lower leg.

[Steph]

I learned to ride bareback because we were too poor for me to have a saddle. I rode, showed and jumped that way for ten years. Some shows, I would borrow a saddle if the class demanded it.

As a former personal trainer, I offer this suggestion to strengthen your thighs.

Stand with feet apart, about halfway under your elbows and shoulders. Tuck your butt underneath you, and drop down to a sitting position SLOWLY. Then, as you come back up, again, do it slowly. Do as many as you can for the first time, working up to reps of 12, for three sets. Oh, and yea, IT HURTS.

You'll be cracking walnuts with your thighs in no time!

For the best way to learn bareback, see Stacy Westfall's DVD. Or, her video on YouTube

Steph

[ChasnCans]

How I was taught atlest .. I first learned how to ride bareback. Mom always said it would make me a better rider, and I think it did. You get lazy when you in a saddle all the time, just getting on bareback helps every once in awhile. But doing the correct seat/leg.

I place my body normal like I would if I was riding in a saddle. Toes pointed up, inner tights taught. It helps your balance and makes your legs alot stronger, I would recommend to work on posting if you haven't already done that.

It is hard at first but doing it for awhile will give you the strenght you need. See alot of people use the stirups when posting, which is a no-no for me and to alot of riders it is incorect. Once you have posting bareback perfect you'll become a much better rider in the saddle. Putting alot of pressure into the stirups can also hurt a horse over time so using your legs/set is very nice on the horse.

ETA: As far as bull riders go, the can't use there whole leg, as they are to be spuring. They have to mix it up, alot different.

[sumarai2000]

An excellent exercise that will build correct position and balance using irons ( and will create a much better leg and balance than no iron exercises because it does not cause a gripping leg which causes the leg to loose its function)
Walk the horse then rise in your irons and stay standing for a certain amount of strides lets say for example .... you will stand 4 beats and then sit back down for 3 beats. and repeating, stand 4 sit 3. (In order to stand up in the irons the foot and leg and upper body have to be in the proper alignment or the rider will fall forward or fall back into the saddle.) When you stand and the horse is moving it is teaching your body how to move in and out of balance. When you sit your leg may return to the wrong placement to stand, but if it does when you try to stand you won't be able to, only if the alignment is correct. By repeating this exercise say stand 4 sit 3 for 5 or six times then change it to stand 2 sit 5. Mix it up repeating each combination at least several times. Using odd and even numbers also adds to the difficulty. The repetition of this exercise teaches the muscle memory for the leg and body so it becomes natural without a gripping leg or any loss of function or suppleness to the leg. Reverse the direction and repeat.
Its important to stress that the most important part is not the standing but standing correctly. So its better for the rider to use the mane, martingale, grabstrap whatever to help her rise in the correct position thus teaching the body each time the correct muscle memory not the wrong one by straining to get up without holding on.
Finally since no rider will ever be required to do a dressage test, or horse show class without irons it seems pointless to teach hours of "no irons" when it usually creates many more bad habits than good. Remember when a rider is the least bit fearful or scared they are going to grip instinctually. You can tell them not to, until you are blue in the face but they will do it automactically. With the above exercise the rider is more at ease and able to function at their best level of elasticity and suppleness because the tension/fear has been removed.

PS the most difficult saddle to ride in is a flat saddle or cutback because it has no pads, knee rolls etc. to hold the leg in a certain placement. I have had tons of riders (and exceptional ones at that try to post in a flat saddle and they just can't do it because their leg has been held in a postion based on the saddle not on correct muscle memory for the correct position. I have found that the flat saddle teaches the rider how to find their real balance based on their unique individual conformation and gives them an excellent seat that can ride confidently in any saddle/discipline.

[BlackMumba]

We have been working on no stirups and no reins in our lesson plan, doing 2point in a trott over rails...

my coach tells us to think of your lower body as a tree, with your feet as the roots.. be heavy in the bottom and lite up top... keep your heals down but relaxed..

Balance is the key if you are wobbly then your not balanced and have to work on finding balance.

She said, if the horse suddenly like magic disappears from under you.. .would you be still in the right position that you would be standing upright if you feel that you would then you have the proper balance...

I don't hang on with my legs... i sit relaxed hips over knees over ankles hands steady without movement if there is alot of movement i am not balanced..

the only time i squeeze my legs together is if I want to communicate to the horse time to go... and its only brief...

Also, the bum slamping is normal, that means your not balanced yet... try to find the beats of the horse.. I also have to agree post trotting will make your seat stronger, then once you found the beat of the trott try to move on to hold for 2 .... post trott is rise and fall to the leg on the wall, when you have mastered that move on to a hold for 2 so you would rise hold one hold two down hold one hold two down... works wonderfully...

[Roewyn]

I think the best part about riding sans sturrips is putting them back on your saddle after a month without them and feeling how much better your seat is!

It's amazing how dependent you can get on those things and how bad you can F-up your position if you dont spend time out of them every so often!!

[sarahv]

I). Your lower leg is what keeps you on the horse. Your knee/thigh will keep you tight in the tack, but for example, when you are riding in 2-point, you can't grip with your thigh, and you should NOT be gripping with your knee....if you are gripping with your knee, you won't be able to sink your weight into your heels.

Try doing some 2-point exercises at the walk and trot (with a saddle/stirrups) and work on sinking all your weight into your heel. Then go ride without stirrups, and practice keeping your lower leg the same. Let us know how you turn out! [/quote]



Ok, so I am a beginner, what do you mean by riding in 2-point and 2-point exercises?

[NoniMe]

What I understand (and my understanding is quite limited...), is that in a normal, regular position you will have three 'points' in line with each other: the shoulder, the bum/hips, and the feet. They are in line with each other, keeping you upright and aligned correctly.

2-point is an exercise where your bum is out of the saddle (and slightly out behind you...I think), while the rest of your body (shoulders and feet) stay aligned, and really stretching your heels downward to maintain the balance.

I think this is right...since I'm just coming to this in my learning, that's how it's been explained to me. If I'm wrong, I hope someone will come along and correct it.

Best-
Noni

[Barbara Fox]

How you ride without stirrups has to do with the type of seat that you ride.

In Saddle Seat Equitation you use your knee and thigh. The aids are given to the horse differently than in some of the other seats, The lower leg doesn't press into the horse.

In Hunter Seat Equitation you use your thigh, knee and upper calf. This is especially important when you jump without stirrups. The seat in Hunter is secure but not deep as compared to Dressage.

In Stock/Western Seat you relax into the saddle, upper calf, knee and thigh close to the saddle, heel down, toe up. In stock seat you don't post.

For a dressage seat there is way less emphasis placed on the knee and more on the deep seat and deep knee, so the knee is more relaxed, as is the ankle joint, so frequently Dressage instructors teach that you should let your leg hang down, ankle relaxed, toe lower than heel. This is the seat in which the deeper the seat and the longer the leg the better.

In all of the seats the rider tries to maintain the ear, shoulder, hip, heel line .

When you ride bareback- ride according to the training of your horse- and sometimes just relax and have fun. If you have a horse that will let you have a good time bareback you have a great opportunity to improve your seat, legs and balance and have fun doing it.

Barbara Fox

[kshnooks]

ok..so this is not really specific to no stirrup work but to the idea of gripping with the lower leg...today my instructor and I decided that I grip too much with my knee. I do use my lower leg, but I don't maintain as much contact as I should at the posting trot and canter. Soo...my question is, I feel that when I do try and keep more contact with my lower leg, my knee pops out. I had been told, at another barn, to always keep my knee closed and have contact throughout my whole leg. However, I am having issues finding that happy medium I guess. Any tips for this? I hope I don't get a "lots of two point!" answer