Wren's training journal

[beezwing]

Right-o
Old Wren boy is perking up. Good hay and oats versus crappy weedy field has him a bit more interested in what is going on around him. He is now fully settled in, and actually walks to me when I go visit him in the morning (I am sure the carrots have helped)

He rides great. Switched his bit from this twisted snaffle hard nose hackamore monster and tie down they were using to a thick french link D ring...he is very responsive, but stubborn and will sometimes fight me, but I win, we just may circle for a bit when he pulls his naughty pony routine. He neck reins, has a pretty good whoa, and will more off into a trot smoothly...I haven't cantered him yet (do to fear on my end)

He was broke to be a kids horse, failed barrel racing training and has been trail ridden...so he is broke, but not trained. In the 3 months that I have had him , and all that work, he is only starting to come out of his shell and start to "think" and lick and chew while we are working ..in maybe the last week or so.

I spend about an 1 hour a day playing with ground work with him. I have not been riding much lately do to my life hitting the fan but that is another thread.. He is yielding his head with the halter, he is getting better about moving away from pressure; porcupine game and all that..

BUT, I am having the darnedest time getting him to lunge. In a round pen I can send him around and change his direction if he is at liberty. If he is on a line he swings to face me and backs up. I can not get him to lead past me at all...he gets panicky and backs up. I can lunge him in reverse real wellIf I put pressure on the little bugger will kick out or rear (and gets his hinny backed across the paddock) I am wondering if you have any good ideas about the next step. His temperament is just so different.

I am trying to just get him to move one foot forward at a time with me driving him from behind, so I can get him to lead past me. I have never worked with a withdrawn, stand still, sullen horse...so any motivational tips would be really welcome. (don't think I don't like him, I do...more and more every day..I swear he is getting prettier)
k

[cutter123]

Originally Posted by beezwing

Right-o
BUT, I am having the darnedest time getting him to lunge. In a round pen I can send him around and change his direction if he is at liberty. If he is on a line he swings to face me and backs up. I can not get him to lead past me at all...he gets panicky and backs up. I
k

Did he ever have any calf roping training? Did anyone ever rope off of him?

[beezwing]

no idea?

he was a tote the drunk around trail horse for the last 8 years...

why? is this something a roping horse would do?

I heard that some horse are trained to turn into a whip...do I stopped using a whip and just toss a rope at him, same reaction.

k

[cutter123]

a calf horse is supposed to hold a rope taut, facing the handler on the ground, especially on the right side, and will often get confused when asked to lunge on a line.

If he wasn't a calf roping horse, perhaps it just has to do with your timing. Maybe when you are freelunging him, you are not "on his head" and you are getting a bit more behind him in a driving stance. Perhaps when you have him on a line, you are inadvertently putting some pressure on his head, enough to make him feel he has to stop and face you, or perhaps you are standing a little ahead of his shoulder. If you just keep stepping towards his hip and driving him forward, and making sure to release his head enough for him to go forward, keep working it consistent and he should get the idea soon enough. Are you lunging him on a line in a round pen or a bigger space?

[beezwing]

I have tried both, in a pen and just in a pasture.

I know I can't be to bad at body stance and timing, I have the weanling at work and my feral horse I re trained lunging really easily...with a turn in, and point reversal of direction <shrug> dunno; one of those things you would have to see I guess.

k

[cutter123]

I didn't mean to imply you were "bad." Sheesh.

The thing is, every horse is different. Some pick up things easy. Some don't. And no matter what, it is YOUR responsibility to figure out what YOU are doing to either communicate effectively enough, or not.

If he isn't getting it, then you aren't communicating effectively enough, so you have to think of how to do it better.

This has absolutely nothing to do with you being "bad" or how well you got your other horses to lunge. I mean I know personally I am not bad at things, yet I am far from getting things right all the time with every horse I handle.

Perhaps he is a bit more sensitive to having the lunge line attached than your weanling and feral horses were. Whatever the reason, he obviously hasn't gotten it if he is backing up away from you instead of going forward around you. So if you want it to get better, you have to figure out a way to get him to understand what you want him to do. That has everything to do with your timing, feel, and body position. Either you get the point across to him or you don't. If you don't, you aren't in the right spot. So if you want to do better, then try being in a different spot.

[cutter123]

Anyway, I have to apologize. Perhaps you didn't ask for help. I am sorry if I butted in. Perhaps you were just writing. You said yourself you hadn't ever worked with a horse with these sort of issues. I know from my experience, a horse with issues is harder than one that is a clean slate. Sometimes it takes a little exxageration of the cues, or thinking a little outside the box. Just an observaiton.

[beezwing]

whoa...

I didn't mean to get your knickers in a twist thinking I was insulted. I wasn't, just it is hard to let someone know that you do (generally) know what you are talking about over the internet. For all you know I could have NO horse experience.

I really appreciated your advice.

The local advice I have gotten:

"he needs to be thrown down and taught who is boss"...cowboy

and "hold is head and beat him with the whip until he moves forward, around you"..dressage queen.

any other options will be taken into account at this point..

k

[cutter123]

LOL yeah I see what you mean! No I didn't have my knickers in a twist, sorry if it came out that way. It sure is hard to communicate well with only the written words on the internet, not knowing the different mindsets/personalities/experiences.

It is also weird, not knowing how to word something so you won't offend someone, not knowing their experiences. I have always wondered about how to do that. I would never want to talk down to someone, no matter how inexperieced they are, and I would give every respect to someone working with horses, whether their experience was more or less than mine.

Anyway, I'm sure you will get it with Wren. To me, from what you have written, it just sounds like he needs more time, and with some effort on your part, showing him where that "open door" is, he will get it.

In my own experieince, when I have had this problem with a horse who has not been taught how to lunge on a line properly, I just keep walking towards their hip, staying behind them a bit, driving them forward and giving them enough rein to go forward. If they go faster than I wanted, I don't get worried about it; I just let them go forward and then gently and gradually take the slack out of the line until they understand they can slow down and relax, but still go forward...if that makes any sense. Good luck!

[RiceKrispyCowgirl]

Clear direction. It starts with good halter manners. He needs to come forward/go back when you ask and move shoulders and hips willingly.

Odds are if you break your cues down slower when Wren is on the line, he'll pick it up. Perhaps try to round pen him with the line on. Try to behave as if YOU don't have the line in your hand. That way all the cues are the same and he will most likely fall into line.

[beezwing]

Thanks..
We have been working off the line this week, and I can drive him, (just waving my hands, no rope or whip or anything) forward, back him and move his shoulders and hip...but, if I drive him too much he will get pissy and kick out (not at, out)...and withdraw, walk away..

so we start over with being friendly, asking for his feet and the like.

Probably a case of bad attitude, coupled with a horse that hasn't been worked with besides "hop on a ride".

the round pen is sodden so I am waiting until it drys out.

I can't wait to be able to work him more, he badly needs topline muscle, and now that he is getting good food, I am afraid he is getting a wee bit plump under the woolies.

thanks all for your help. I am used to pushy horses, even Gideon who was feral was at least interested in humans...it took a months of talking to this guy and bribing him with carrots for him to care at all about me.

just a very different horseinality

k

[MizParker]

When I read your description, I can see how smart the horse is. He is training you to let him have things his way.

You say that when he rears/kicks out, you back him up. And then you describe how backing up has become his avoidance technique. that is how he gets you distracted from what you want. He is offering you those different behaviors to see which one is going to be "hitting the easy button", where you will leave him alone and/or give him a break from work.

So, focus on what you do want. You want him to lunge. To get there, make sure all (and I mean ALL!) his buttons are in the right place. I call this the "pre-flight check" Pilots do it, why shouldn't riders? He should yield his shoulders(the leg closest you should cross in front of the opposite leg). He should yield his hips, without locking up in the front( his front feet should track around in a circle) and without leaning his shoulders into you. That should happen on both sides of his body. He does all that? Good, you should be able to get him to lunge.

In the round pen, clip your lead on his halter. Step his shoulder over, away from you. His front end is pointing away from you slightly. Now, drive his hip forward. If he rears, kicks, whatever...just keep insisting on forward. Don't let him hit the reset button and start backing him up. You want to avoid that. You know that he can back up...but that isn't what you want him to do. Keep your focus on your goal, no matter what he does. If he faces up to you again, step his shoulder over, get him pointed the right direction. Rinse, repeat. Stay calm, stay consistent.

I go into a lot of detail here, mostly because I haven't seen you lunge. I know that there are different ways of getting it done. This is just what has been working for me.

Even if you don't like the techniques, I think that if you start focusing on what you want, instead of what you don't want, I think you will see a major change in your horse.

Good luck, and keep trying. Persistence pays off!

[beezwing]

Thank you just said exactly what my boss did, in his mini lesson he gave me the other day..

But, today we were going to ride, just have fun; and I had an epiphany. My daughter Hannah (8) was up and he was on the lead, I stood in the lunge position and she rode him around me, I did not drive him from the ground, just held the rope, and swung the end of it if he tried to come into the center, and kept my body position, and she drove him forward with her legs. And he was a perfect dear...now when we try again to lunge I will make sure that he is working and thinking; but it was really nice to "play" at lunging with out stress.

Other then that he was dear and gave me and the two kids a nice ride, the fearless eight year old with the natural seat, and the fourteen year old who is nervous and rides like a sack of potatoes, and me
k

dear pony earned his carrots today

[MizParker]

Its great that you had a low stress session with Wren.

I'm sure that when you begin insisting on consistent behavior from your horse (and getting it), eventually, you will see the reward of no stress work outs. You will just have a willing partner all of the time.

I can't tell you that the first couple of times will be easy. But when you are all said and done, I can tell you it will be worth all the work.

[beezwing]

We are lunging in both directions now....he is really starting to get it.

I found out this past weekend, that he hops into and out of a trailer just fine. Is not afraid of cows, or tarps, or indoor arenas.

I think he can sidepass...I am just not sure how to cue him correctly.
Poor bugger is a western horse, with an english rider in a aussie saddle so we are both confused.

k

[DanielleS]

Originally Posted by beezwing

We are lunging in both directions now....he is really starting to get it.

I found out this past weekend, that he hops into and out of a trailer just fine. Is not afraid of cows, or tarps, or indoor arenas.

I think he can sidepass...I am just not sure how to cue him correctly.
Poor bugger is a western horse, with an english rider in a aussie saddle so we are both confused.

k

Thats great! Maybe you should try a western saddle? Maybe you'd both enjoy it.

[cutter123]

Glad to hear the lunging thing is sorted out! Good deal

[ohiobred]

try leaning in the opposite direction that u want him to go. u will need to help him with pressure on the bit and in your legs. if u want to side pass right, lean left pull right on neck and left leg pressure. i'm sorry if this sounds confusing. just trying to help without being there. he sounds like a roper. try getting on him and swing your arm around like u got a rope in your hands. he might want to go, but just see if he flinches.

[beezwing]

What I know of his history is...
he was broke out to be a kids horse, failed barrel racing training, and was trail ridden for the last 7 years (in the barrel racing gag bit steel hack combo thing, with his head tied down) they just never thought to change it

he is about 15 years old...give or take
we are guessing he is an appy...but no real color, so stock horse type

He and I are still trying to figure out what we are going to do...I would love to show him him trail, but we both have a long way to go both in fitness and in skill. But, I got to watch my boss working his horses on cows and I am so hooked....I need to find a trail riding friend with a trailer!!! I would pay gas and make lunch just to be able to get out in the woods on my horse. My only friend with a trailer is the Dressage Queen, and I love her to pieces...but I think she may be afraid of trees.

I switched him to a fat french link D ring and threw the tie down away I use slobber straps and rope reins and he is really quite responsive and will move off my leg...when he is paying attention. He can be a real pisser if he doesn't want to work.

k

[DanielleS]

If you were closer I would totally trail ride with you! I love getting out of the ring and into the woods, and I think the horses love it too.