Lunging problems

[Carri]

As y'all know, we gave Pris the week off last week, and have her on hormones to try to help her. Per the vet, we started back yesterday with groundwork, trying to start again from the beginning with her since she is being such a spoiled brat lately.
For those who don't know, Pris is my 6 year old daughter's 11 h pony. Cute, but a typical pony, and VERY, VERY ALPHA.
The alpha part is really causing some problems right now. I think she was going along with us before to keep the peace, but she has decided that she has no respect for anyone anymore.
So, I have 2 lunging problems I would like some feedback on.
1) When forced to lunge, and I do mean forced, Pris will only lunge with her face turned completely toward the roundpen, and is not giving in at all. She will begrudgingly walk and trot when made to, but she keeps her face away from us at all times and and you really have to stay on her.
2) BIG issue- When she decides she has really had enough, she starts backing up to us trying to kick, with both feet, and yelling or smacking her with the lunge whip does not stop her. She is basically doing a huge buck aiming right at me, if that makes sense. Total disrespect!
My current plan is to go and get a lunge line today, I am thinking that even though we are in a round pen, a lunge line will give me additional control.
Do ya'll have any other suggestions? Both for lunging, and other things I could do to establish myself, and ultimately Grace, as the alpha over this witchy little pony?

[seerfarm]

Carri, I might suggest using a double long line lunging system. This is set up like driving lines but gives you front end and rearend control.

[Carri]

That is one of my plans for her groundwork, but with her kicking like she is, I am a little afraid to at this point! She really comes after me, and does not back down. I broke a lunge whip on her butt yesterday and she still kept coming.

[leadmare]

Bring her here for the week end and I'll be gald to help (This offer is for real.)


She is just being disrespectful. She's not taking you serious enough. She's telling you "NO!"

I like to free lunge until I get it through to them. When all else fails...

[seerfarm]

Maybe a little unclear to the double lunge line. Still used to lunge in normal fashion but the off line comes around there hip and back of legs, so if she decides to throw it in reverse turn and begin kicking, you can again step up to the lunging position pulling her rear end away from you. Or you can step to the off side pulling her head into you and push her rear away from you. Does that make more sense? Keeping her off balanced so she can't kick allows for more of a spinning move and you being able to remain in safe position but in control.

[Carri]

I do understand, I am just not sure how to execute it without getting annihilated! I am telling you, this pony has a serious mean streak when you try to make her do something. If she was a big horse, I would have sent her packing by now. As it is, I am determined to make her listen and behave, I am just not sure exactly what to do. I have never met one this resistant. She was not so bad when we first got her, because Grace really just wanted to walk around on her, but now that Grace wants her to do more, she has become pure evil.

[Carri]

Leadmare, if I had a trailer, I would be on my way!

[leadmare]

If I could drive I'd be on my way

My methods are hard to explain, but much, much easier to show.

Okay, let's back up some and figure her butt out.

Your recent changes are wanting her to do more than walk. Am I correct? Is this what started the behavior?

[seerfarm]

I'm sorry Carri, I so understand your concerns. Wish I was a tad closer, would love about an hour with this girl.
Concerning, wandering if there isn't an underlying medical issue with the brain? Or has the hormones caused her to snap?

[carlagsd]

Have you tried using a rope halter on her? They give much better control.

When you're lunging her, keep popping the halter when she turns away from you. You want her eye on you, not looking out into space. She'll probably tug on the halter and when she does, give her a "pop, pop, pop" and keep popping until she stops pulling against you. It will probably take several times or sessions until she gets it.

Since you are lunging her to gain respect and not necessarily to work off excess energy, keep changing directions on her. Have her go around two or three times, then stop her and switch directions. Sometimes just go half way around and switch directions. The idea is to make her move her feet and pay attention to you.

When she "decides" she's done and starts in with the kicking at you, be sure you're out of harms way, but angled so you can pull her head around towards you. Do it HARD and FAST every time she tries to come at you with her rear end, kicking, bucking or whatever. Then send her off again.

Using a rope halter will make it a lot easier on you.

[NoniMe]

I am SOOO not an expert, but...

I don't care if Tango has his face plastered on the rail, as long as he's going the direction *I* choose. In fact, one of the signs I look for as an indication as to where his mind is, is which direction his face faces. If he's looking outward, he's avoiding me...and if he's giving me his eye, he's softening up and getting ready to let me be lead. In the beginning, it would take an hour or so to get the eye; now, sometimes the eye is there the moment we get to work; more often, it takes a few laps around and voila, eyeball to me.

Tango has, on occasion, double fired at me. Never close enough to hit, but it's his way of saying "oh heck no" so I send him out and make him move. Again, I don't care if it takes an hour; my direction...and I'll let you stop when I say you can. Now, I know you know this already, and it sounds as if Pris is just a stubborn old goat-pony, so maybe that won't work.

If Tango didn't respond to the lunge whip for me, I'd get something he was scared of - maybe a tarp, a plastic bag on the end of a line, something -anything - which would make him run away. And then I'd pressure him into running away; flap the tarp, yell "BACK!!", get big...and make him move. And at first I wouldn't care which direction he'd go, because all I want is him to get outta my space. Once there's "personal bubble" respect, then I'd care about controlling his direction.

I don't know that I'd want to be attached via a lunge line right now...but that's just me, and again, I'm no expert. I'd go into the round pen with nothing left to do with my day, and just spend the time it takes to get one little bit of respect, and then do it again the next day, get a little more, and so on. It took a few weeks with Tango before it took less than 90 minutes, and like I said, sometimes in the beginning of our session he'll still gallop around like an idiot and buck at me (although, now it's less disrespect and more WHEEEEEEEE!!!). I'd make sure there was nothing left to accomplish that day, so I could spend the time it would take to prevail, be it 5 minutes or 90 minutes.

Hope this helps - and like I said, I don't know anything much, just what's worked with Tango.

Best-
Noni

[StablemasterE]

I dont know. I use a stud chain. My lunge has one on it. A couple of good snaps over or under the nose depending on which horse Im using it on makes huge diifence. It also gives you a little more control. I dont have to use it often anymore b/c once they got the idea I free lunge in the round pen but it really does help! Sometimes though I do have to throw it one them when they are having a "mare" day.

[Carri]

We are using a weird combination halter, it is one that is a traditional halter (so we can cross tie her) and a poll and nose pressure piece that runs like a rope halter under it, where you can hook a leadline. With it, Grace can lead her pretty well, so the pressure definitely works.

The worst part started about a month ago. Grace has been wanting her to do a little more, and she started taking Grace and literally laying down against a fence or the side of a building to get Grace to get off. So it got where I would literally have to walk with her, to correct the pony so she would not get hurt. At the same time, her ground manners have become atrocious, biting, kicking, pushy, and just plain mean. Grace started wanting to work with her less and less, and I began to think she was pregnant or sick, so we kind of made things worse by babying her and letting her out of work. I finally got the vet out, and she is not pregnant or sick, but did have some small ovarian cysts. He feels that they were not large enough to be painful, and said that they all form them when they are ovulating and then they go away, but he put her on Regumate to see if it would help the issue in case she was painful from them. We then gave her a week off, because she also had her wolf teeth removed at the same time as her ultrasound.
She is still just as evil on the ground, and nothing seems to make a difference. Grace does not want anything to do with her anymore. At this point, I am thinking that I would like to get rid of her attitude, and if Grace is still afraid of her, sell her, give Grace Sweet Pea, and buy Anna something a little bigger for showing.
But, the fact remains that whether it is to sell her or for Grace to keep her, I have got to get rid of the attitude.
Leadmare, I have been free lunging her in a roundpen, so that is why I thought I would get a lunge line today, so that when she turns her head I can get her back focused on me, and so that when she tries to turn her butt toward me to kick, I can pull her head around. A little more control, I am hoping.
Noni, that is kind of what I am thinking, just keeping her moving and doing this daily until she finally cracks. She is not afraid of anything, I literally broke a lungewhip on her yesterday and she kept coming at me, and we have bombproofed her to the point that she is not afraid of bags, tarps, balloons, anything! She is more likely to attack than run. A good alpha mare! Just not good for us.

[divinemisselle]

I'll second the suggestion for a lead shank over her nose if you're using a line. A quick "reminder" will get her attention focused.

If you're free longing, lots, and I mean lots of quick reverses of direction to get her paying attention. I would worry less about her not looking at you, but she still has to mind. Even though her head is turned away, is her ear cocked in your direction? If it is, she's listening.

[Jess6092]

Maybe borrow a hot shot! When she gets that but on you if a whip isn't working maybe a little shock will!

People may throw tomatoes for this one, but when one of our horses is being that rude, we will tie them to the trailer or a hitching post overnight. Water but no food overnight or all day, then work them again to succeed, and turn out when they behave. If they are still rude they get tied again. They learn real quick who is in charge and it is NOT a good idea to kick the head that helps feed you! We keep checking on them but do not give in until they are respectful. It really does work. Especially with a smart horse/pony. Kinda like a timeout. Just an idea!

I think the lunge line will work, just pull her head toward you HARD when she starts to go backwards, make her face up then send her out again.

Keep us updated.

[leadmare]

I understand the idea of the long line. Let's see if I can make sense about what I think may be going on here

I want a horse to want to find safety with me. I want a horse to know being away from me is not a safe place to be. I want a horse to worry more about what I will do, more than they worry what anything else can do to them. Make any sense to you?

A Leadmare with a naughty herd member will put that member out on the far reaches away from the herd and safety. (Like the rail of the round pen to you.) Leadmare doesn't touch that member unless it challenges her up close and in her personal space and then she means what she says. She controls from long distance with body language that is very clear to the offender. She will walk, maybe trot in small circles, while the offender is running stupid on the out skirts. She will not let it stop until she knows she has the offenders wind. She may not even let the offender back in the herd for days. She demands the respect she is due and makes it very unpleasant to be out of her protection.

So far make sense?

Now, in your herd, Pris is the leadmare and your trying to take over this position. Is she going to fight back? Oh yeah, and she will be a tough nut to crack. And being a pony, it's a little tougher as they are always more determined to be the boss. I find that when the bad behavior shows up, it's because we are making their place in the herd not so clear to them. Kinda like smacking the queens crown off her head She's going to try to keep it. Before this she was going along with you, because she was enjoying it. Now it's becoming work and involves someone else being in charge and it's not so fun anymore

Now by putting her on the rail and making her move her feet, you are asserting your leadership and she's thinking "Hey, wait a minute!" and then acting out the "NO!" she's saying with the charging, kicking and biting crap.

Sometimes it's safer to take them and turn them loose in a larger arena and do the driving there. Not quite as confining for the person. You don't have to run, but she has to shuffle her feet fast enough to make an impact on her wind.

I just tend to approach it a little different. While free lunging she can keep her nose out there and as long as she is moving faster than a walk, I'll just sip my coffee. When a horse or pony "loses their mind" as I call it, I go back to the very beginning and act like it's a colt that has no sense or idea of what it's supposed to do.

I don't care if she's changing gaits, looking at the moon, sucking her thumb. As long as she keeps moving. If she slows to a walk, make her trot at min. It may take five minutes it may take an hour, five hours, but at some point she's gonna look at you. This is where you need to read whether she needs more pressure to keep her moving, or is she wanting relief. If you offer relief, and she gives the slightest bit of hesitancy, move her feet again.

I call this "taking her wind." You can take a horses food, water, companionship, or freedom and you may never get their mind. But take their wind, control when they can rest to get their breath and they start to think of easier ways.

By not using the line the horse is making his own "Choice" of your worthiness to be his/her leader. Of course, your ability to out think them helps them make the right decision

[Kathy G.]

2) BIG issue- When she decides she has really had enough, she starts backing up to us trying to kick, with both feet, and yelling or smacking her with the lunge whip does not stop her. She is basically doing a huge buck aiming right at me, if that makes sense. Total disrespect!

At the risk of having tomatoes thrown at me...
Go with the lung line, but use one with a stud chain on it. Put it either over the nose or unde the chin. (test to see which is the most sensitive and put it there.) Then make her work with the longe whip. When she gets tired of it and starts backing towards you, Run backwards and snatch that chain just as hard as you can. If physically possible, yank her over backwards. Make her nose very sore with that chain. (I'm sorry, she doesn't care if she kills you when she double barrels you, a sore or bloody nose is a small price to pay) Do whatever you have to do to convince her that if she tries to hurt you, you are going to hurt her.

I'm not speaking without the experience here. You are describing the terror that came into my barn 2 years ago. Only he didn't try to run backwards and kick you, he would charge you. Ears pinned, teeth barred. He meant business. You could hit him with a buggy or lunging whip with everything you had and he would just keep comming. I put a chain on his nose and when he would come at me I would step the the side and wear that nose out. Once he figured out that I could hurt him, he became a very respectful pony. That was 2 years ago and he is still respectful. Do whatever it takes to convince this little heffer that she is not nearly as big and bad as she thinks she is and she will step down from the throne and hand you the crown. Until then, she is dangerous (as you already know).

Most horses are flight not fight animals and it does not take drastic measures to get them to back down or move. But there are those that have figured out that they are bigger than us and can withstand pain better than us (that is why the whip is not bothering her) She knows that you cannot hurt her, but she can hurt you. It is up to you to show her that she is wrong.

I have a trailer and can drive. I would love to take a road trip and spend a few hours with her.

[David]

Just bumping this thread because I saw it and wondered what the outcome was.../

[alihspharaoh]

Holy pony needs an @$$ beating batman! If things weren't so hectic around here I would say bring her butt back and let me at her. I will probably get lots of veggies thrown at me...but when the whip broke and she was still coming...out would come the 2x4. Under no circumstances do I let any horse do that...if it gets that dangerous, and I can't control it...out the door they go. Carri, I wouldn't blame you one bit if you decided to sell her...that behavior is not acceptable.

On another note...how is Mocha?