So at what point do you admit defeat

[beezwing]

Most of you know Gideons history, and to be perfectly honest he has made great strides and I am quite proud of him.

But...

He threw me again today, again due to not having got my foot in the stirrup, this time not because I lost it but because I didn't get my foot in there fast enough. He started to panic, I tried to one rein stop, our new trick which he had been doing quite well with, and he got more and more scared started to canter and tossed me. Blessedly we were in the round pen. I am ok..very bruised hip, my butt will no doubt look like a baboon's by morning. I did manage to send him around the pen a few times with the saddle on, to maybe get him over the stirrup slapping him in the side feeling, but I was in no condition to do more than that.

He needs a better rider to get him further and over his fears. I need a more mellow horse to build my confidence and strength. I am afraid to sell him, He has already had rough treatment, he is 17 and has a cut tongue so he isn't perfect...and it would kill me if he ended up in a worse place. But I really think that I do not have the strength to safely train this horse. Hiring a trainer is unfortunately beyond my means at the moment, being tapped out paying for his board and vet care. He has huge trust issuses due to his past and I am the only person who can catch him..

anyone in the Gulf states area would like to trade him for an older, slow, quiet horse because you need a challenge like Gideon?
God, just typing that has me crying again...

(I am beginning to think I should have put this in the rant section, maybe we need a self doubt section too)
k

[ali_acres]

I don't have any advice for you, I'm sorry
But I do commend you for honestly sticking with him, and for admitting that maybe, at this point, he is beyond your ability. That's a hard thing for many riders to admit. Is there somebody around who you could trade services with that could take him on as a project? Like you groom their horse or muck a stall or two for some training? Hopefully someone on here has some solid advice for you. Take some ibuprofen and I hope you feel better tomorrow.

[Jadesmygirl]

I am so sorry. It is an awful predicament for you. I really do not have any answers either, just wanted to express my sorrow and hope that things work out for the best for all.

[beth55051]

I'm so sorry!

I wish you were closer. I have the perfect guy for you but we're quite some distance apart.

[b-mark]

*sigh*

I do NOT know what to tell you - I am in the same boat with Mark. I'm SO sorry.

[Texas Paints N Arabs]

Is there an experienced person at the boarding facility that might be willing to help you out? When I got my first horse several years ago, she was a definate project and I seeked out some help from my fellow boarders. Forunately one of them was an ex jockey and helped me out a lot.

[dproaps]

I do so feel for you! I've been in the same situation a few years back with a beautiful Arabian gelding. I loved him terribly and hated it, but honestly, sometimes its better to just go ahead and get a HORSE DIVORCE before you get badly hurt.

[ali_acres]

Here's a thought for when (if) you want to try mounting again. Have someone with you, on a quiet, easy horse that your guy doesn't mind. Have that person hold him while you mount. Keep it as calm and quiet as possible. Then once you are up, just stand there. Both of you stand quietly and don't do a thing. Don't ask him to move, turn, nothing. If he takes a step, quietly get him to stop again. Keep talking to him, and have the other horse standing quietly close by. Do that for 15-20 minutes. Dismount and put him away. I know it sounds like a waste of time(and its sooo boring), but my instructor would do this (she read a magazine) with her nervous youngsters and after a few lessons they got the point. Standing quietly was something they could mentally handle, it kept them calm, they were successful, and then they got rewarded by being put away. Do you have show aspirations or any goals with this guy besides getting him to trust you? If that's the case, then you're going to need infinite patience and be satisfied with baby steps for now. you've only been working him for a few months. this sounds so frustrating for you, but if you want to stick it out with him, i would try and be satisfied with small victories for now.

[beezwing]

Thank you all.

Unfortunately I have no one with any extra time to help. I rode him just fine yesterday. It does help to have some one hold him until I am up and settled, but that isn't always possible. I am sure I will feel better about it in the morning.

I am willing to give him to the right home. But everyone here seems to think I am his only chance.

to his credit, he is very pretty, well built and sound, and fast..I am sure a patient, strong, more experienced person then me, could make something of him.

sigh

[SunnyKS]

Really only you can say if your outmatched, but my thought is maybe your not out matched so much as he's telling you you've come too far too fast.

If you think about it it's really been such a short time from when he was the horse you could barely handle and now he's riding.

Maybe it's time to back up and really hit the ground work. Start back like he was a green colt. Really work on ground driving, round pen work and just desenitize the heck out of him.

Plus if while you are starting him over and you can borrow a horse for you dressage lessons then maybe your skills would improve as his do and you guys might match up later on.

[NoniMe]

My question to you, dear Beez, is this:

If you could get him past the mounting issue, would you keep him?

I'm having mounting issues with Tango...not as severe as yours, but definitely issues. Steve and I are working together to get Tango to stand still while being mounted...I would be more than willing to share those practices with you if you want to try. They're boring, they will take some time, but they will work.

So let me know, all right?

Best-
Noni

[beezwing]

It's not so much he has the mounting issue, I do..I am a bit slow and don't just pop right on, get both feet ready and go.


It is the shear uncontrollable panic on his part, if anything goes "funny" that worries me. My self confidence has a bigger bruise on it then my hip does. If I was stronger and had a better seat, I could just ride out his little fits and he would realize everything is ok

back to ground work for sure


I hope my hubby brings me a bottle of wine an a bar of chocolate.

k

[ambrey]

It's much easier to sit out a fit if you have both stirrups! I have been practicing quick stirruping

A horse that throws fits is no fun

[kristin]

i would love to help you but i am all the way in ohio. I have a mare, that i rescued a year ago that would try anything to keep you of her back, (plus we didnt know she was in foal) but now four months after foal has been here she is out on the trails doing great, still has a lot of trust issues but were making strides. let me know if there is anything we can do to help.

[beckyp]

I know sometimes we have to look at the situation and make a decision that we are not able to deal with a particular horse. My daughter had to do that several years ago the horse she had was unreliable for her and a pro had worked with him-her experience wasn't far enough along to be able to safely ride him. Most recently a 4 year old QH mare my granddaughter had here was fine but when they moved their horses she became unruly and not dependable for my granddaughter.

Maybe you should try a few suggestions given on ground working him more,I know sometimes when I mount my 12 year old TB he wants to step out. I have worked with him,he doesn't take off at canter but I don't want him to step off till I am ready for him to go. Tonight he was perfect-let me get settled and then I gave him the cue to move. I hope you can find solution that works for both Gideon and you.

[gbarmranch]

I agree with a lot of the advice given - if you have reached a point where you know that YOU can not further his training, then perhaps it is time to look into selling or trading him..

I am sorry that you are faced with this - it is never an easy choice..

[Gotta Love Duns]

I know it can be rough to go through a tough spot in training.
In his case you have come in leaps and bounds from where you have first started!
With mounting when I'm training my young colts I do the hop method. I start first with my hand and let it hit there side, wiggle the saddle (not lightly) and let them get used to that motion. Then I start hopping beside the saddle, so they get used to the motion of me jumping beside them. Once they stay stalk still for that, I will move onto holding onto holding onto the horn and jumping up and down.
From there I move to putting my foot in the stirrup and start hopping up and down (are you seeing a trend yet? ) but I do not swing over. I'm tall so this works easily for me.
Then I will boost my self up but just lie over the horse with no feet in the stirrups and rub the horse on the flank and sides and will get up and down from both sides until the horse does not move out at all.
So from there I will swing my leg over but not put my legs in the stirrups (easy get away) and will start my rub over with the horse and work on mounting and dismounting.
Only when I feel the horse will not take one step will I get on and stick my feet in the stirrups.
I don't know if that will help at all?

[doyle82]

I am sorry you're in this situation.
It's not easy to admit when you're over your head.

[Horses&Soccer]

I admit defeat! When I bought Destiny she was underfed and the low horse on the pecking order. She was sweet, cuddly, I could hang all over her. Now she's put on a lot of weight, feels good, energetic, and has realized she's a TB. She's too much for me, or I'm not enough for her - she needs someone with a lot more experience than I have. My trainer loves her, he keeps telling me to "give her a chance, she's great". Then - this Sunday we were going to go trailriding, when they went to load her she showed her TB side and dragged his wife all over the yard. He gave me a half grin with a raised eyebrow and said he'd find me a horse I can ride. I said: "now do you understand why I'm not riding her?" He called tonight and has found a possibility - a lady wants to do a straight trade, her 10 y/o arab for my Destiny, she's looking for speed and height - she'll get it there! You have my sympathy, I understand how you're feeling.

[NoniMe]

Originally Posted by beezwing

It's not so much he has the mounting issue, I do..I am a bit slow and don't just pop right on, get both feet ready and go.

Me too.

It is the shear uncontrollable panic on his part, if anything goes "funny" that worries me. My self confidence has a bigger bruise on it then my hip does. If I was stronger and had a better seat, I could just ride out his little fits and he would realize everything is ok

back to ground work for sure

I would rather not have to ride out fits in the first place. Know what I mean?

So what Steve and I do are total desensitizing to everything possible during mounting. There is a great post above by Gotta Love Duns, and I do all that. That's the 'frantic frog' part of things in our daily groundwork.

We also do as much as we can to create issues so that we can desensitize before it happens for real while I'm riding. We desensitize with:
~rope (I use a 12 foot rope, Steve uses a 14 ft one)
~lunge whip
~rattling chains
~flapping: hands, shirts, baseball caps, jackets, et cetera
~clapping hands
~milk jugs with rocks in the bottom (rattle them)
~running at him and then loving on him when he stands still
~sticking my fingers in his mouth and ears unexpectedly (trying to simulate flies and bugs)
~pat and rub - pat everywhere, and rub everywhere when the flinching stops
~squatting and then jumping up (I actually say "boo" when I do this).
~loud talking/shouting

And so on. Lots of desensitizing work for me, and I think you might benefit from it, too. We do lots of other ground work things, too, but the above is what we do nearly every day to get Tango used to unexpected things and to create a sense of judgement in him as to what's an issue and what's not.

Once we're saddled, we work on the frantic frog, thumping of the stirrup on him (take your hand and drop the stirrup onto his side; once he's stopped reacting to that, add weight to the stirrup via your hand and sort of push it into him, or snap it onto him). Tugging the saddle one way and the other, hard. Smacking the flat of my hand on the seat, making noise and pressure. From the mounting block, we go up and down several times, me practicing my timing, and the pause (more later on the pause). Tugging at Tango's mane at his withers. Wonking him on his hiney (simulating a foot dropping onto the top of his bum). Jumping on him, holding his withers in my hand and literally jumping as high as I can while putting pressure on his back, smacking the saddle with my free hand, and being loud (I usually say "up" or "whee"). And so on. And all that before I get onto Tango's back.

Let me add a few more things.

One: when we get on, if we poke them in the side, that's a cue to 'go.' So they go. Same thing with the reins. When we pick up/put tension on the reins, that's a signal to 'go' as well. So, most often we will give two signals to 'go' without realizing it while we mount. Steve and I are working on putting my foot parallel to Tango's side so it's not poking him, and, while still having the reins in my hand, not putting any tension on them. It's hard...but when I do that, Tango stays still.

Two: Do NOT mount if he's not standing stock still. I mean, museum statuary still. If he moves an inch, get down from the mounting block, disengage those hinds, turn him in circles. Do this every time he moves...let him get away with movement NOT AT ALL - not even a sway or an inch. He will eventually learn to stand still for you, as Tango does mostly (with the reminder if necessary).

Three: do not swing the right leg over immediately. Wait to see what Gideon does. If he takes off, you can easily get free if you're standing on the one stirrup with your left leg with your right leg on the same side as the left, but looking forward and hips facing forward (it's hard to explain, so maybe I'll get some photos of Steve doing it and post them). This pause allows you to make any adjustments to your balance and/or position, as well as assess your horse's movement and/or tension. And once you do swing your leg over, don't look for the stirrup right away - reassess everything again. Only once you're sure that he's not going to take off with you, put your right foot in the stirrup. This waiting for the stirrup helps you do things in steps, as well as making sure you're not accidentally poking him, cueing him to go.

Four: Once you're on, be still. Make him wait. Wait, wait, wait. If he moves without your request, disengage his hinds and make him go in circles. Just stand there. Sniff the breeze, discuss kings and cabbages, but wait. Don't be in a hurry to ride somewhere...just wait. I try to get Tango to go to sleep...it hasn't worked yet, but we're trying.

Five: at every point, when your boy does something right, pet and love and reassure him. Tell him good boy, tell him "yes!". Remove all pressure as soon as he does the first little thing toward your request. I know you do this, but do it 'more'.

I hope my hubby brings me a bottle of wine an a bar of chocolate.

I hope so, too...and I hope the ideas above help a bit. I know you love your boy, and I'm thinking that if you take it all the way back to square one, you and he might be able to overcome this. You may still decide otherwise, but I think it's worth a shot. And if you were closer, I'd come over and help you, however I could.

Best-
Noni