Has anyone ever heard of

beckyp · 09-11-2007, 02:19 AM

That would make me mad,I have never heard of it being done as a part of NH,perhaps I don't know all the aspects involved with NH training. I say let's bop them on the cheek and see if they respond.

bunnyal · 09-11-2007, 03:07 AM

cheek bop: to hit a horse for no reason causing him to fear you. To train a horse using the fear method.

cheek bebop: to walk up to some idiot who thinks he knows what natural horsemanship is and kick him in the @#% for hitting a horse for no reason.

beckyp · 09-11-2007, 06:26 AM

Good answer.

KatieMae · 09-11-2007, 06:28 AM

I'd be worried that my horse would become head shy from something like that...

NHIceGSD · 09-11-2007, 06:47 AM

See, that's why I'm so funny about the whole NH thing... anyone and their brother can say "Oh, I'm a natural horse trainer"...and then proceed to walk up to your horse and smack him in the face! What????

Quarters N Paints · 09-11-2007, 06:54 AM

Sounds like the "want to be" trainers needed a training technique I call the "knee to the groin" it is very effective in getting someones attention when they are being an a$$, and is usually followed by several explicitives as to what I think of their actions.

The guy sounds like an idiot and shouldn't be handling horses let alone training and putting on expos.
I am afraid I would have made a scene and walked out there to ask what the heck he thought he was doing??? I am afraid I would have had a conversation ( in a professional manner) with him about his so called methods and told him he was all done using his back woods crap on my horse, took my horse and walked him away. Might have led to you finding a new place for your horse but I wouldn't exactly want him in a barn where they think that crap is "Training" It is too hard to undo what that type of handling does to a horse, especially if your horse is a young and willing horse who has a good human/horse base relationship.

Just my opinion....................

Jess6092 · 09-11-2007, 07:25 AM

Wow! I dont know if I could have watched that! I would have had my hand raised (lol) and asked - NOW, isn't that going to make my horse head shy!? I would be curious to see what his answer would have been.

I think I also would have had to take my horse out of that situation asap! I dont think they could have kicked you out for having your own opinoins.

How is your boy now? Lots of treats and scratchies for him for putting up with it and not "bopping" him back! lol!

**gbarmranch** · 09-11-2007, 07:40 AM

Idjuts..

I like the train the trainer methods you guys have proposed... they should be very effective on the humans involved..

Hideaway · 09-11-2007, 07:46 AM

I would've cheek bopped him.

Quote:

Idjuts..

JoAnne · 09-11-2007, 08:10 AM

that's scary. It's true, anyone can call themselves a NH trainer, or any kind of trainer. Sorry for your horse. Next time, tho it is easy for me to say, intefere no matter what.

**seerfarm** · 09-11-2007, 08:18 AM

Sounds like the "want to be" trainers needed a training technique I call the "knee to the groin" it is very effective in getting someones attention when they are being an a$$, and is usually followed by several explicitives as to what I think of their actions.

Ditto for me. I am sorry but this wouldn't be tolerated in a herd of horses, and he would find himself in a bloody heap as an outcast. I believe some should be subjected to there own training methods just to see how it feels!

montanagirl · 09-11-2007, 08:30 AM

Agree with previous posters. Sounds like he needs to be taught the "groin pop" maneuver designed to keep him from torturing your horse.

He's giving NH a bad name, which ticks me off as well.

dimpleflirt · 09-11-2007, 08:36 AM

I've seen the trainer
Craig Cameron do it in a demo for a horse that bites but not for personal space.It works great for bitting but I would think it would cause a horse to be head shy to do it out of the blue if the horse is just standing there minding his own business.

David · 09-11-2007, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimpleflirt

I've seen the trainer
Craig Cameron do it in a demo for a horse that bites but not for personal space.It works great for bitting but I would think it would cause a horse to be head shy to do it out of the blue if the horse is just standing there minding his own business.

I have (seen and used) a chin bump, which is under the mouth on the jaw bone, to stop a biting horse. This is what I saw Craig Cameron do on his show, I think this is what you are refering to. biting is the only reason I've ever even heard of someone hitting a horse on the head. Even then it's not in the face. Anyone who studies or practices NH should be able to tell you the place to strike a horse to get them out of your space is on the lower half of the body ( chest, ribs, etc.) that's where they get kicked when they invade the space of a horse in the herd. If you hit a horse in the head it will make them jerk their head up, it will not make them move their feet, usually. After two or three hits they will start moving away, where as a properly placed smack on the chest or ribs will make them move their feet immediately. Also, if you place pressure in the proper place it takes less pressure. If those lazy a$$es would have taken the time to learn proper techniques they would find out it's easier for them to do it right as well as for the horse.

I must commend you though on having the presence of mind to control yourself because I would definately have caused a scene over some guy hitting my horse in the head.

**beth55051** · 09-11-2007, 09:04 AM

I'm going to have to be the dissenting party here.

What you're calling a cheek bop was most likely used because the horse didn't respect personal space. Used properly it is a very effective method to teach a horse to respect your personal space. Generally done with the heel of the hand it does not hurt the horse.

Think of it in herd dynamics. If a horse is standing too close to a more dominant horse that horse will most likely lunge out with their teeth to bite the offender and tell them to, "get out of my space". Those teeth cause far more pain than the heel of your hand.

When I step into my horses space with a "pushing" motion I expect them to step over to the side. They understand the herd dynamics and that I am boss mare so they do step over. But when working with a new horse or an ill mannered horse they may not understand this and no matter how much we think that saying please will work, it may not.

While I don't agree with the over use of physical force, it's what horses understand, that and body language. But they must first respect you to respect your body language.

Without seeing the video, there is no way to tell if what happened in the clinic was justified or not. Often times as horse owners we see things with rose colored glasses and don't see the potentially dangerous situation that could occur because our horses like to crowd us. Broken toes, busted noses and flat out getting run over.

If you really had a problem with the way your horse was being treated why did you allow the clinician to use him for a demo horse??

ambrey · 09-11-2007, 09:04 AM

Yes, I've heard of what you're talking about. They say that horses use their jaw as a tool of aggression, so if a horse is swinging his head into your space, you should flat-hand him in the jaw- I believe using the momentum of his head rather than force. It's similar to the flailing elbows only using a flat hand toward the jaw.

I don't believe it implied whacking a horse in the head to gain personal space or get him to move.

dimpleflirt · 09-11-2007, 09:08 AM

What I saw him do was to use the heal of his hand and bop the horse in the round of the cheek when the horse went to nip then he went right back to scrubbing the horse all over,if the horse bent his head in again he would get bopped again and he would not stop what he was doing. Kind of like " OH, did you do that to yourself".

I've only needed to do it on one stud colt that I had tried much easier methods on that had failed.He left me alone with the nipping after two lessons. I don't like having any kind of negative contact normally around a horses head because it will make them head shy but there are times to try different methods on different horses. Like this filly I have loading in the trailer now with out effort,I went to using food to load her because she had be soured by the previous owners with the pressure method and butt ropes so I needed to change my approach. Now she walks right on even with a lead.You must adjust for each horse.
I'm not saying these guys are right for doing what they were doing,more than likely they sound like they didn't have a clue and could have caused a good horse to be head shy.

TheUpNorthCowgirl · 09-11-2007, 09:33 AM

I use this particular technique as well. Of course I don't bop my horse when she is just standing there, behaving herself. But when she's on the lead shank and comes into my space I throw up the flat of my hand. If she runs into it, it's her own fault. She shouldn't have been in my space. If she is blatantly disregarding my space I will actually bop HER on the jaw to tell her "Hey! Get outta my face!" I honestly don't have enough strength to actually "hurt" her. And I don't. It's just sort of a wake up call. "Hello, remember those manners I taught you?" Use them!

I'm not really a natural horsemanship person, I just kind of use snippets from lots of different trainers and find what works. *shrugs*

If your horse was doing nothing wrong, her certainly shouldn't have been boppin' him for no reason! And I would have taken the lead shank and lead him straight out of the arena.

cutter123 · 09-11-2007, 09:41 AM

The key to anything like that is TIMING.

I have seen my trainer whack a horribly mannered stud colt in the face and not get him headshy, on the contrary, get the point across and stop the stud from jousting with his head (a major sign of disrespect and agression coming from a stud).

On the contrary, someone doing what you described repeatedly for the wrong reason and to a horse that doesn't understand, or even doing it for the right reason but having sucky timing, they are just going to make a bigger mess.

Personally, I think especially with a stud, any sort of repeated whacking would escalate things. If there is an unruly colt, I think one major correction sharp enough to get the point across right away is much more humane than nagging him to death. And for a young gelding or other horse that is not agressive just a bit spoiled or used to crowding people, I personally have used and seen other methods work well that don't include hitting the horse in the face.

One caveat about using the heel of your hand to hit a horse...especially if you have your hand bent back so the heel is the most exposed part...
it is easy as heck to break your wrist that way. I have personally known two people who have broken their wrist. They go to smack a horse and the horse moves and their wrist comes down on a bony part of the horse, and crack! So anyone who chooses to use this method, please be careful. Also, know there are more effective ways to get a horse out of your space.

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09-11-2007, 12:59 AM
mustangmama Newborn Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 7	Has anyone ever heard of I Last edited by mustangmama : 11-19-2007 at 01:53 AM.

09-11-2007, 02:19 AM
beckyp Seasoned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: utica,ky Posts: 4,122	That would make me mad,I have never heard of it being done as a part of NH,perhaps I don't know all the aspects involved with NH training. I say let's bop them on the cheek and see if they respond. __________________ If not at home try the barn.

09-11-2007, 03:07 AM
bunnyal Yearling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Pasco County, Florida Posts: 837	cheek bop: to hit a horse for no reason causing him to fear you. To train a horse using the fear method. cheek bebop: to walk up to some idiot who thinks he knows what natural horsemanship is and kick him in the @#% for hitting a horse for no reason.

09-11-2007, 06:26 AM
beckyp Seasoned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: utica,ky Posts: 4,122	Good answer. __________________ If not at home try the barn.

09-11-2007, 06:28 AM
KatieMae Seasoned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: C.FLA Posts: 4,139	I'd be worried that my horse would become head shy from something like that... __________________ You can only blame your problems on the world for so long Before it all becomes the same old song.

09-11-2007, 06:47 AM
NHIceGSD Yearling Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 819	See, that's why I'm so funny about the whole NH thing... anyone and their brother can say "Oh, I'm a natural horse trainer"...and then proceed to walk up to your horse and smack him in the face! What???? __________________ Be Something You Love and Understand~ Lynard Skynard

09-11-2007, 06:54 AM
Quarters N Paints Yearling Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Monterey Michigan Posts: 790	Sounds like the "want to be" trainers needed a training technique I call the "knee to the groin" it is very effective in getting someones attention when they are being an a$$, and is usually followed by several explicitives as to what I think of their actions. The guy sounds like an idiot and shouldn't be handling horses let alone training and putting on expos. I am afraid I would have made a scene and walked out there to ask what the heck he thought he was doing??? I am afraid I would have had a conversation ( in a professional manner) with him about his so called methods and told him he was all done using his back woods crap on my horse, took my horse and walked him away. Might have led to you finding a new place for your horse but I wouldn't exactly want him in a barn where they think that crap is "Training" It is too hard to undo what that type of handling does to a horse, especially if your horse is a young and willing horse who has a good human/horse base relationship. Just my opinion.................... __________________ http://quarterpaintranch.homestead.c...AINTRANCH.html RIDE LIKE A PILOT NOT A PASSENGER

09-11-2007, 07:25 AM
Jess6092 Long Yearling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 1,052	Wow! I dont know if I could have watched that! I would have had my hand raised (lol) and asked - NOW, isn't that going to make my horse head shy!? I would be curious to see what his answer would have been. I think I also would have had to take my horse out of that situation asap! I dont think they could have kicked you out for having your own opinoins. How is your boy now? Lots of treats and scratchies for him for putting up with it and not "bopping" him back! lol!

09-11-2007, 07:40 AM
gbarmranch Administrator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mayberry Posts: 29,575	Idjuts.. I like the train the trainer methods you guys have proposed... they should be very effective on the humans involved.. __________________ Quality Foundation Quarter Horses http://home.earthlink.net/~vpgann As you slide down the banister of life, may the splinters never point in the wrong direction.

09-11-2007, 08:10 AM
JoAnne Started Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 2,442	that's scary. It's true, anyone can call themselves a NH trainer, or any kind of trainer. Sorry for your horse. Next time, tho it is easy for me to say, intefere no matter what.

09-11-2007, 08:18 AM
seerfarm Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Out with the Herd! Posts: 8,235	Sounds like the "want to be" trainers needed a training technique I call the "knee to the groin" it is very effective in getting someones attention when they are being an a$$, and is usually followed by several explicitives as to what I think of their actions. Ditto for me. I am sorry but this wouldn't be tolerated in a herd of horses, and he would find himself in a bloody heap as an outcast. I believe some should be subjected to there own training methods just to see how it feels! __________________ "Year's end is neither an end nor a beginning but a going on, with all the wisdom that experience can instill in us". ~Hal Borland

09-11-2007, 08:30 AM
montanagirl Yearling Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 591	Agree with previous posters. Sounds like he needs to be taught the "groin pop" maneuver designed to keep him from torturing your horse. He's giving NH a bad name, which ticks me off as well. __________________ No hour is ever wasted that is spent in the saddle. --Winston Churchill

09-11-2007, 08:36 AM
dimpleflirt Long Yearling Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,120	I've seen the trainer Craig Cameron do it in a demo for a horse that bites but not for personal space.It works great for bitting but I would think it would cause a horse to be head shy to do it out of the blue if the horse is just standing there minding his own business.

09-11-2007, 09:04 AM
beth55051 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: East Central Minnesota Posts: 4,870	I'm going to have to be the dissenting party here. What you're calling a cheek bop was most likely used because the horse didn't respect personal space. Used properly it is a very effective method to teach a horse to respect your personal space. Generally done with the heel of the hand it does not hurt the horse. Think of it in herd dynamics. If a horse is standing too close to a more dominant horse that horse will most likely lunge out with their teeth to bite the offender and tell them to, "get out of my space". Those teeth cause far more pain than the heel of your hand. When I step into my horses space with a "pushing" motion I expect them to step over to the side. They understand the herd dynamics and that I am boss mare so they do step over. But when working with a new horse or an ill mannered horse they may not understand this and no matter how much we think that saying please will work, it may not. While I don't agree with the over use of physical force, it's what horses understand, that and body language. But they must first respect you to respect your body language. Without seeing the video, there is no way to tell if what happened in the clinic was justified or not. Often times as horse owners we see things with rose colored glasses and don't see the potentially dangerous situation that could occur because our horses like to crowd us. Broken toes, busted noses and flat out getting run over. If you really had a problem with the way your horse was being treated why did you allow the clinician to use him for a demo horse?? __________________ Do not mind anything that anyone tells you about anyone else. Judge everyone and everything for yourself.

09-11-2007, 09:04 AM
ambrey Started Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,167	Yes, I've heard of what you're talking about. They say that horses use their jaw as a tool of aggression, so if a horse is swinging his head into your space, you should flat-hand him in the jaw- I believe using the momentum of his head rather than force. It's similar to the flailing elbows only using a flat hand toward the jaw. I don't believe it implied whacking a horse in the head to gain personal space or get him to move.

09-11-2007, 09:08 AM
dimpleflirt Long Yearling Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,120	What I saw him do was to use the heal of his hand and bop the horse in the round of the cheek when the horse went to nip then he went right back to scrubbing the horse all over,if the horse bent his head in again he would get bopped again and he would not stop what he was doing. Kind of like " OH, did you do that to yourself". I've only needed to do it on one stud colt that I had tried much easier methods on that had failed.He left me alone with the nipping after two lessons. I don't like having any kind of negative contact normally around a horses head because it will make them head shy but there are times to try different methods on different horses. Like this filly I have loading in the trailer now with out effort,I went to using food to load her because she had be soured by the previous owners with the pressure method and butt ropes so I needed to change my approach. Now she walks right on even with a lead.You must adjust for each horse. I'm not saying these guys are right for doing what they were doing,more than likely they sound like they didn't have a clue and could have caused a good horse to be head shy.

09-11-2007, 09:33 AM
TheUpNorthCowgirl Long Yearling Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Upper Michigan Posts: 1,026	I use this particular technique as well. Of course I don't bop my horse when she is just standing there, behaving herself. But when she's on the lead shank and comes into my space I throw up the flat of my hand. If she runs into it, it's her own fault. She shouldn't have been in my space. If she is blatantly disregarding my space I will actually bop HER on the jaw to tell her "Hey! Get outta my face!" I honestly don't have enough strength to actually "hurt" her. And I don't. It's just sort of a wake up call. "Hello, remember those manners I taught you?" Use them! I'm not really a natural horsemanship person, I just kind of use snippets from lots of different trainers and find what works. shrugs If your horse was doing nothing wrong, her certainly shouldn't have been boppin' him for no reason! And I would have taken the lead shank and lead him straight out of the arena. __________________ Hahahaha!

09-11-2007, 09:41 AM
cutter123 Weanling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cali Posts: 475	The key to anything like that is TIMING. I have seen my trainer whack a horribly mannered stud colt in the face and not get him headshy, on the contrary, get the point across and stop the stud from jousting with his head (a major sign of disrespect and agression coming from a stud). On the contrary, someone doing what you described repeatedly for the wrong reason and to a horse that doesn't understand, or even doing it for the right reason but having sucky timing, they are just going to make a bigger mess. Personally, I think especially with a stud, any sort of repeated whacking would escalate things. If there is an unruly colt, I think one major correction sharp enough to get the point across right away is much more humane than nagging him to death. And for a young gelding or other horse that is not agressive just a bit spoiled or used to crowding people, I personally have used and seen other methods work well that don't include hitting the horse in the face. One caveat about using the heel of your hand to hit a horse...especially if you have your hand bent back so the heel is the most exposed part... it is easy as heck to break your wrist that way. I have personally known two people who have broken their wrist. They go to smack a horse and the horse moves and their wrist comes down on a bony part of the horse, and crack! So anyone who chooses to use this method, please be careful. Also, know there are more effective ways to get a horse out of your space.