NSBA (stock horse western pleasure versus all breed

Smilie · 08-15-2007, 11:53 AM

Hi
There has been lots of good discussion on this subject, and Ron explained pretty well how western pleasure horses should move according to NSBA standards
Some seem to think that all horses doing western pleasure are expected to move in this same frame. Not so. The Arabian and Morgans have western pleasure classes, but party due to conformation and also breed standards, move completly different than a stock horse bred for western pleasure. They have a higher head carriage, breaking just at the poll and not both at the poll and at the whithers. They are shown with bit contact and certainly have higher leg action. They also aren't expected to move flat kneed and slow legged, that is their own breed standard, and also aren't penalized for having the face slightly behind the verticle
a judge that judges western pleasure at open all breed shows must be familiar with the excellence of each breed's standards, and not judge those horses against his preference, like many unfortunately do
Thus, if there is an Arabian present that moves more like the ideal Arabian western pleasure horse, than a stock horse that does not perform up to the standards of stock horse western pleasure, even if he is an AQHA person, he should place that Arabian first and have the knowledge to do so
The NSBA western pleasure rules, adopted by the AQHA, ApHC and the APHC, are geared towards those types of horses bred for stock horse western pleasure
These horses have the natural level topline, are deep hocked and flat kneed, and thus with the refinement of training, are built to drive deep from behind, elevate shoulders,, round and move slow legged and flat kneed
Artificial aide never teach this. Use draw reins too long and you have a horse with just a head set that moves on his front end
Many western pleasure trainers are using a lot of ground rails to help teach cadence and shoulder elevation.
I can't comment on pleasure rules outside of the stock horse and NSBA rules, but certainly neither twisted wire or two lb snafffles are allowed. If you wish to see legal snaffle bit discription, then pick up an AQHA, ApHC or APHC rule book. Exact diameter of allowable size is given. Reins must be attached so that if a chin strap is used to keep bit from being accidently pulled through the mouth, it must be attached below the reins so there can be no accidently curb action
Western pleasure horses that win today in upper compitition are trained through achieving true collection and self carriage on a loose rein. No artificial devise will create such a horse.
If someone genuinely is interested in learning how a western pleasure horse is really trained, instead of listing poor practices by some wanta bes, then there are good videos on it by Doug Carpenter and Steve Hechaman. I have Doug Carpenter's book on western pleasure, and he goes into detail on deveopling a westerrn pleasure horse, through excercise that builds strength and self carriageSometimes actually reading about a discipline and training methods helps one understand the criteria of it, and what it takes to develope such a horse There ia also another good video, called Western pleasure through The Judges Eye. It goes into what a judge is looking for as for movement, ability to rate speed and consistency. A judge doesn't want to see one horse on one side of the arena, and see that horse going completly different on the other side
He explains how he places the class-first picking the good joggers and watching for them at the lope. He shows horse that are average lopper and what a great lopper is.
It helps when discussing a subject to first really understanding the standards
For instance I admire a good dressage horse, but were I to try and decide which horses were outstanding in a class, i would try and first learn the requirements and what is considered excellent before making judgements

**Orchid** · 08-15-2007, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilie

If someone genuinely is interested in learning how a western pleasure horse is really trained, instead of listing poor practices by some wanta bes, then there are good videos on it by Doug Carpenter and Steve Hechaman.

For instance I admire a good dressage horse, but were I to try and decide which horses were outstanding in a class, i would try and first learn the requirements and what is considered excellent before making judgements

I certainly hope you are not referring to anyone here on the forum either directly or indirectly, as that would be quite insulting.

mymaxx · 08-15-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchid

I certainly hope you are not referring to anyone here on the forum either directly or indirectly, as that would be quite insulting.

I second that

**gbarmranch** · 08-15-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchid

I certainly hope you are not referring to anyone here on the forum either directly or indirectly, as that would be quite insulting.

I also agree - there are a great many caring, qualified, and wonderful people on here with years and years of successful show and training experience who freely offer good advice to those who ask.. I would hate to think that someone would insult their kindness in any way.

VickiE · 08-15-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mymaxx

I second that

I'm going to fourth this....

**beth55051** · 08-15-2007, 02:52 PM

Might I correct myself since I was indirectly quoted.

While I don't know about a 2lb snaffle (which my original remark was in jest) a 1lb 13oz heavy ringed, small diameter snaffle bit is legal in both QH and NSBA competition. As well as plenty of other torture devices you would never see in my house, barn or anywhere near one of my poor lowly trail horses.

While some of us have chosen not to compete at high levels that does not mean that we do not know what we are talking about.

Horsetopia is mean to be a fun, informative forum, not a lecture hall.

**divinemisselle** · 08-15-2007, 04:06 PM

Quote:

If someone genuinely is interested in learning how a western pleasure horse is really trained, instead of listing poor practices by some wanta bes...

Of whom do you speak, specifically? I'd really like to stay away from this person!

I have a colt that is just dripping with WP potential and would like to make sure that I head in the correct direction!

DoBeSassy · 08-15-2007, 04:17 PM

I don't really understand what this thread is supposed to achieve, but I will gladly listen to all advice given. then pick what works for me. As every good horse person should do.

I would also hope your not talking about anybody on here as we are all on here to give and receive advice.

Linebacker55 · 08-15-2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchid

I certainly hope you are not referring to anyone here on the forum either directly or indirectly, as that would be quite insulting.

See I did not read it that way. The first part she was saying that Western Pleasure and ideal pleasure movement is more type specific. Morgan and Arabs move different then the stock horses. So if you judge a show with open western pleasure, you should not always choose the stock horse.

The second part, was saying that there are many want to be trainers out there using devices and she listed two whom she deems admirable.

Although Steve heckaman is a Stock horse rider, so I am not fully sure how it all fits in....

Eagles Nest · 08-16-2007, 12:56 PM

Line backer, that's what I took of it also....When everyone else came back with comments, I though I missed the first page and jumped in on a discussion?

I think all breeds get really sick of defending their practices, or that just because a few "middle of the water not high level dudes" do it a certain way, that they ALL do it that way.....But, I also say, where there's smoke, there's usually some sort of flame. It is up to owners to look at how their horse is treated. I think on of the big issues is, if you want to win it will cost you more to go with a good trainer than one who is taking short cuts....We know a lot of people want to win, but don't want to pay to play.....

ToveroMom · 08-16-2007, 04:58 PM

The price you pay a trainer does not neccesarily mean you will get a better trainer.

DoBeSassy · 08-16-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToveroMom

The price you pay a trainer does not neccesarily mean you will get a better trainer.

I agree, my trainer is a guy who spent years in the horse world. Now he is retired and helps me out becuz he likes my horse. He has more knowledge then I could ever dream of having, and he truly does it for the sake of the horse, not how much money he can make. He stresses taking it slow and not trying to rush things. And y'all would kill me if I told you haw much I pay him.

Eagles Nest · 08-17-2007, 01:08 PM

I did say usually....

In many cases, at least that I've been involved in, the upper level trainers (and also more expensive) are not taking short cuts, they are winning, but because they are good and know what they are doing....In my expereince it has been the middle or lower level guys that have a tendancy to try to get it done quickly while taking short cuts.

I agree, cheap doesn't always mean bad, and expensive doesn't always mean good. But, as a rule of thumb, I buy the best I can afford.

DoBeSassy · 08-17-2007, 01:20 PM

Ok yeah I have seen it too. A trainer gets too many horses and needs the money so he cuts corners on each horse so he can get paid for every one.

I know what you mean, I guess I was just in an arguing mood yesterday

. forgive me

Jess6092 · 08-17-2007, 01:44 PM

I think I agree with all the responses here. That post was a bit confusing and maybe a bit insinuating (spelling?).

I would like to hear what smilie (original poster) has to say about the responsees to his/her post. Are we misunderstanding you?

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08-15-2007, 11:53 AM
Smilie Halter broke Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alberta canada Posts: 195	NSBA (stock horse western pleasure versus all breed Hi There has been lots of good discussion on this subject, and Ron explained pretty well how western pleasure horses should move according to NSBA standards Some seem to think that all horses doing western pleasure are expected to move in this same frame. Not so. The Arabian and Morgans have western pleasure classes, but party due to conformation and also breed standards, move completly different than a stock horse bred for western pleasure. They have a higher head carriage, breaking just at the poll and not both at the poll and at the whithers. They are shown with bit contact and certainly have higher leg action. They also aren't expected to move flat kneed and slow legged, that is their own breed standard, and also aren't penalized for having the face slightly behind the verticle a judge that judges western pleasure at open all breed shows must be familiar with the excellence of each breed's standards, and not judge those horses against his preference, like many unfortunately do Thus, if there is an Arabian present that moves more like the ideal Arabian western pleasure horse, than a stock horse that does not perform up to the standards of stock horse western pleasure, even if he is an AQHA person, he should place that Arabian first and have the knowledge to do so The NSBA western pleasure rules, adopted by the AQHA, ApHC and the APHC, are geared towards those types of horses bred for stock horse western pleasure These horses have the natural level topline, are deep hocked and flat kneed, and thus with the refinement of training, are built to drive deep from behind, elevate shoulders,, round and move slow legged and flat kneed Artificial aide never teach this. Use draw reins too long and you have a horse with just a head set that moves on his front end Many western pleasure trainers are using a lot of ground rails to help teach cadence and shoulder elevation. I can't comment on pleasure rules outside of the stock horse and NSBA rules, but certainly neither twisted wire or two lb snafffles are allowed. If you wish to see legal snaffle bit discription, then pick up an AQHA, ApHC or APHC rule book. Exact diameter of allowable size is given. Reins must be attached so that if a chin strap is used to keep bit from being accidently pulled through the mouth, it must be attached below the reins so there can be no accidently curb action Western pleasure horses that win today in upper compitition are trained through achieving true collection and self carriage on a loose rein. No artificial devise will create such a horse. If someone genuinely is interested in learning how a western pleasure horse is really trained, instead of listing poor practices by some wanta bes, then there are good videos on it by Doug Carpenter and Steve Hechaman. I have Doug Carpenter's book on western pleasure, and he goes into detail on deveopling a westerrn pleasure horse, through excercise that builds strength and self carriageSometimes actually reading about a discipline and training methods helps one understand the criteria of it, and what it takes to develope such a horse There ia also another good video, called Western pleasure through The Judges Eye. It goes into what a judge is looking for as for movement, ability to rate speed and consistency. A judge doesn't want to see one horse on one side of the arena, and see that horse going completly different on the other side He explains how he places the class-first picking the good joggers and watching for them at the lope. He shows horse that are average lopper and what a great lopper is. It helps when discussing a subject to first really understanding the standards For instance I admire a good dressage horse, but were I to try and decide which horses were outstanding in a class, i would try and first learn the requirements and what is considered excellent before making judgements __________________ Great horses are born, not made, we only put on the refinement

08-15-2007, 02:52 PM
beth55051 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: East Central Minnesota Posts: 4,870	Might I correct myself since I was indirectly quoted. While I don't know about a 2lb snaffle (which my original remark was in jest) a 1lb 13oz heavy ringed, small diameter snaffle bit is legal in both QH and NSBA competition. As well as plenty of other torture devices you would never see in my house, barn or anywhere near one of my poor lowly trail horses. While some of us have chosen not to compete at high levels that does not mean that we do not know what we are talking about. Horsetopia is mean to be a fun, informative forum, not a lecture hall. __________________ Do not mind anything that anyone tells you about anyone else. Judge everyone and everything for yourself.

08-15-2007, 04:17 PM
DoBeSassy Kid Safe Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 5,195	I don't really understand what this thread is supposed to achieve, but I will gladly listen to all advice given. then pick what works for me. As every good horse person should do. I would also hope your not talking about anybody on here as we are all on here to give and receive advice. __________________ There is none so blind as she who will not see

08-16-2007, 12:56 PM
Eagles Nest Long Yearling Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,021	Line backer, that's what I took of it also....When everyone else came back with comments, I though I missed the first page and jumped in on a discussion? I think all breeds get really sick of defending their practices, or that just because a few "middle of the water not high level dudes" do it a certain way, that they ALL do it that way.....But, I also say, where there's smoke, there's usually some sort of flame. It is up to owners to look at how their horse is treated. I think on of the big issues is, if you want to win it will cost you more to go with a good trainer than one who is taking short cuts....We know a lot of people want to win, but don't want to pay to play..... __________________ You earn your blue ribbons at home, you just pick them up at shows!

08-16-2007, 04:58 PM
ToveroMom Pasture Pet Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cleveland TX Posts: 15,774	The price you pay a trainer does not neccesarily mean you will get a better trainer. __________________ In the right light, at the right time, everything is extraordinary. Aaron Rose

08-17-2007, 01:08 PM
Eagles Nest Long Yearling Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,021	I did say usually.... In many cases, at least that I've been involved in, the upper level trainers (and also more expensive) are not taking short cuts, they are winning, but because they are good and know what they are doing....In my expereince it has been the middle or lower level guys that have a tendancy to try to get it done quickly while taking short cuts. I agree, cheap doesn't always mean bad, and expensive doesn't always mean good. But, as a rule of thumb, I buy the best I can afford. __________________ You earn your blue ribbons at home, you just pick them up at shows!

08-17-2007, 01:20 PM
DoBeSassy Kid Safe Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 5,195	Ok yeah I have seen it too. A trainer gets too many horses and needs the money so he cuts corners on each horse so he can get paid for every one. I know what you mean, I guess I was just in an arguing mood yesterday. forgive me __________________ There is none so blind as she who will not see

08-17-2007, 01:44 PM
Jess6092 Long Yearling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 1,052	I think I agree with all the responses here. That post was a bit confusing and maybe a bit insinuating (spelling?). I would like to hear what smilie (original poster) has to say about the responsees to his/her post. Are we misunderstanding you?