My horse is only front wheel drive....suggestions??

HighHorse · 06-13-2007, 06:04 PM

I recently started getting serious with training my new 5yo paint horse. He is basically new to the concept of anything. He pulls at the bit, won't bend, and has gaites that I can't hardly even post to! Anyway, part of the problem is the fact that I'm trying to get him to use his butt more, and even get it underneath him a little. I am sitting as deep as I can and squeezing with my legs as much as possible, but I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me, something that has worked in the same situation, maybe. Thanks!

HighHorse · 06-13-2007, 09:26 PM

Mule Fool · 06-13-2007, 09:32 PM

If he's new to the concept of anything, maybe you're asking for too much yet? How long have you been working on this? What are you doing with him? Just need alittle more information.

almost_mozart · 06-13-2007, 09:33 PM

Well, I'd get him a little more broke before I worry about that. But a lot of times teaching collection can help. By getting him to flex his neck and carry his back better, you'll also help him get his butt underneath him.

pvf · 06-13-2007, 09:55 PM

Try to get him to do this in a round pen before your ride him. Make sure he flexes good with you on the ground,disingage his hind quarters,have him pivot.

montanagirl · 06-13-2007, 10:02 PM

Does he understand how you want him to move his body? Clinton Anderson has good articles about creating suppleness and bending the horse, and getting him to yield forequarters and hindquarters.

I think some good groundwork working on yielding to pressure would help. Then he'll figure out how to respond to the leg.

miss leanne · 06-13-2007, 10:08 PM

lots of good advice here. the only thing I can add is backing him up and getting his weight on his hocks and rolling him back over in the opposite direction. If you can get him to at least do a LITTLE pivot off the hind end, he'll get the picture.

But I agree... that should come MUCH later... i'd work on giving to pressure and stopping first and foremost. And the one-rein stop... a must have.

HighHorse · 06-14-2007, 10:34 AM

Ok, maybe I was a little frusterated when I posted this. He does have a good whoa. He is also doing well with small pivots. I just feel like everytime we stop I'm going forward. His bend leaves a lot to be desired.He seems to always want to turn his head to the right when were going to the left. I do groundwork with him, and it's the same story. I have even tried using a surcingle, but he just stops and sulks. After this, getting to move forward is a pain in the butt! I have had better results in the saddle on this matter. But, yes, maybe it's too much too soon. I just didn't want do the wrong thing, and form a bad habit. Thanks to everyone for their advice!

HighHorse · 06-14-2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montanagirl

Does he understand how you want him to move his body? Clinton Anderson has good articles about creating suppleness and bending the horse, and getting him to yield forequarters and hindquarters.

I think some good groundwork working on yielding to pressure would help. Then he'll figure out how to respond to the leg.

Where do I find these articles?

pippy · 06-14-2007, 11:31 AM

What type of bit are you using?
When you wrote: He pulls at the bit, won't bend, and has gaites that I can't hardly even post to....it makes me think he could be uncomfortable in the bit you are using, hence the pulling, stiffness, heavy in the front.

I had this problem with one of my horses in the past, I researched ways to make him 'lighten up' and collect Larry Trocha has decent advice here: http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/bittinginfo.htm
I purchased some of his dvd's. I really like him and what he says. I ride both western and some English, the advice works for either when it comes to starting/ reteaching a horse, bits to use and collection.
I've tried following his advice, went back to a snaffle (7/16) and then to the 3/8. By golly, it seems to be working! I'm encouraged. I bought an o-ring myler (level 1). So far so good.
Good Luck!

montanagirl · 06-14-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Where do I find these articles?

HighHorse, go to www.downunderhorsemanship.com and that's Clinton Anderson's website. He has some articles available which are really helpful and a couple of them are specifically about flexion and engagement/disengagement. I like CA's explanations.

DoBeSassy · 06-14-2007, 11:41 AM

I would say it's a bit thing as well ,or a mouth thing.

I have been told by a reining trainer that they teach their young horses with a bosal becuz their mouth is doing so much changing that the bit does more harm than good in the training process.

miss leanne · 06-14-2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pippy

What type of bit are you using?
When you wrote: He pulls at the bit, won't bend, and has gaites that I can't hardly even post to....it makes me think he could be uncomfortable in the bit you are using, hence the pulling, stiffness, heavy in the front.

I had this problem with one of my horses in the past, I researched ways to make him 'lighten up' and collect Larry Trocha has decent advice here: http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/bittinginfo.htm
I purchased some of his dvd's. I really like him and what he says. I ride both western and some English, the advice works for either when it comes to starting/ reteaching a horse, bits to use and collection.
I've tried following his advice, went back to a snaffle (7/16) and then to the 3/8. By golly, it seems to be working! I'm encouraged. I bought an o-ring myler (level 1). So far so good.
Good Luck!

HIGH FIVE!!!

I am a BIG advocate of Larry Trocha, having seen him work horses in person many many times, and having ridden horses he has trained/tuned. I would recommend him to ANYBODY doing any of their own training. Check out the blurb about the kid training his own reiner and winning a fat check after watching his 'teach your horse to rollback and spin' video.

here's a link to the blurb:

http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/r...-horse-win.htm

I'm glad there are other folks out there who realize how truly awesome and practical he is as a trainer. And what's REALLY awesome 'bout him... not alot of garbage 'products he believes in' or endorsement deals that you have to cut through... it's cut and dried.

AlbertaGirl · 06-14-2007, 01:51 PM

Have his teeth been done? Are you sure he's not in pain anywhere else? I'm a pretty big believer in having dental work done, and in equine chiropractors.

Otherwise, more ground work - round pen, line driving, etc. I usually tie their head to one side, rein through the stirrup and back up to a d-ring, with one side shorter, other side loose, to get them to give to the bit. If you're doing this stuff already - sorry

Here's a pic of what I mean (don't mind the "rails" - 2 pieces of windboard - in the background, the former owner's of my place built it, and it's been taken down, the colt in my pic was really quiet, I wasn't worried about him going through it)

Slim Pikkens · 06-14-2007, 01:57 PM

Using a snaffle bit, stand facing his shoulder. Take the bit ring in your little finger and coax (give and release) his nose around to your hip. He may pull back, he may not bend. If so, ask him to bring his nose an inch. Release the pressure. Do not allow him to return his head but push it back. It's your decision, not his. Keep working on those inches and soon he will bend his neck. You might have to put your other hand against his neck near the jaw to help him get the idea of bending.

HighHorse · 06-16-2007, 09:30 AM

Thank for all the websites. I will start navigating through them ASAP. BTW, I am using a Kimberwick. His former owner used a twisted o-ring snaffle (he hated it!), and a Hack. I am not used to traing in a Hack so I didn't want to use something I wasnt familiar with. I agree that he may need to have his teeth floated. However, I have checked his mouthto be sure that the bit is not banging up against his wolf teeth. Thanks to all, you guys were a wealth of information!!!! Cna't wait to get started on some of the techniques you've shared!

JoAnne · 06-16-2007, 10:01 AM

Other people have adressed bits and suppling his neck. Re getting his legs under him, try serpentines, circles, figure eights, all the change of directions make them put hocks under them. try them at walk and trot first, canter just reg circles till he is more balanced. also transitions, walk trot, trot canter and back to trot. And lunge him, eventually introducing surcingle and side reins (side reins loose at first, and don't use them too much at teh walk, tighten them slowly as he gets more supple, read up on lunging etc, that is what my trainer is doing now with my just turned five youngster)

It takes a while for them to learn balance under a rider and use their hind end better, be patient, let him reach down for the bit rather than ask for artifical collection/headset, they can give you the headset if it is asked too soon, while still having a hollow back and stiff gaits, by not powering from behind and using thier whole body.

Smilie · 06-16-2007, 12:21 PM

Hi
This horse neeeds to go back to basics-an o ring snaffle and basic suppling excercises
A horse that does not understand basic correctness of body aleignment and collection, does not belong in a kimberwick. You can use a bosel, but not a mechanical hackamore
Wolf teeth-don't check if the bit is making contact-get them pulled, and have teeth floated
I don't know of how familiar you are with developing lightness , frame and collection in a young horse, but the topic is too huge to go into here.
You use a snaffle with the direct rein, and re-infornce with the indirect rein. Leg is used to keep body aleignment through the ribs and hip-reins control the front third of the horse
You always ride with more legs than hands, driving horse onto the bit until you feel him soften in your hands. The horse is taught to keep shoulders up and drive from behind-this gets them working off their rear, instead of dragging themzelves around on their front end, heavy on the bit and strung out behind
Various excercises like roll backs will help a horse learn to keep hind end engaged-but basically hind end engagement is collection-thats where it starts and it goes on to include head set , but does not start there.
All too often people become obsessed with head set, using all kinds of devises like draw reins, but failing to use enough leg to get collection. They wind up with a horse that has a head set, often getting behind the verticle, but strung out, four beating a t the lope, because they are not collected-just have a head set.

HighHorse · 06-16-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilie

Hi
This horse neeeds to go back to basics-an o ring snaffle and basic suppling excercises
A horse that does not understand basic correctness of body aleignment and collection, does not belong in a kimberwick. You can use a bosel, but not a mechanical hackamore
Wolf teeth-don't check if the bit is making contact-get them pulled, and have teeth floated
I don't know of how familiar you are with developing lightness , frame and collection in a young horse, but the topic is too huge to go into here.
You use a snaffle with the direct rein, and re-infornce with the indirect rein. Leg is used to keep body aleignment through the ribs and hip-reins control the front third of the horse
You always ride with more legs than hands, driving horse onto the bit until you feel him soften in your hands. The horse is taught to keep shoulders up and drive from behind-this gets them working off their rear, instead of dragging themzelves around on their front end, heavy on the bit and strung out behind
Various excercises like roll backs will help a horse learn to keep hind end engaged-but basically hind end engagement is collection-thats where it starts and it goes on to include head set , but does not start there.
All too often people become obsessed with head set, using all kinds of devises like draw reins, but failing to use enough leg to get collection. They wind up with a horse that has a head set, often getting behind the verticle, but strung out, four beating a t the lope, because they are not collected-just have a head set.

So you think that changing him back to an 'o' and getting the two teeth pulled will help him? Hmm, I think I will probably do this rather than continue what I am currently doing. I am doing serpentines, but it's not much good if he is bending in the opposite direction. It was my understanding when I bought him that he was a little further ahead of where he is now. However there is nothing I can do now but collect as much info as I can and try to get him where he needs to be. So should I worry at all about headset now, or should I just focus on getting him to accept the bit? Right now he responds to leg aides best, which is typical. I honestly do better when I just jump on bareback with a halter and use only my legs. Thank you for your help Smilie!

JoAnne · 06-16-2007, 01:00 PM

Hi...like Smilie said, it is a complex subject, we are all still learning, I'd recommend reading up on basic dressage, I can't speak for western but in english basic training before collection the horse should move freely and in balance first, collection is introduced gradually as the horse gets stronger from his hind end and able to get his hocks further under him. This in turn raises his rib cage and poll and as the rider keeps him in light contact, he will flex his neck as part of stretching his back.

Many people acheive a "headset" to make the horse look like he is collected, what that does is force a horse to arch his neck by port bits,very heavy restrictive contact, or draw reins. But though his neck is arched, his back is still hollow, (with resulting jarring gait you are feeling) His rear legs are not stepping under his body.

06-13-2007, 06:04 PM
HighHorse Started Join Date: May 2007 Location: FLA Posts: 2,957	My horse is only front wheel drive....suggestions?? I recently started getting serious with training my new 5yo paint horse. He is basically new to the concept of anything. He pulls at the bit, won't bend, and has gaites that I can't hardly even post to! Anyway, part of the problem is the fact that I'm trying to get him to use his butt more, and even get it underneath him a little. I am sitting as deep as I can and squeezing with my legs as much as possible, but I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me, something that has worked in the same situation, maybe. Thanks! Last edited by HighHorse : 08-30-2007 at 10:02 AM.

06-13-2007, 09:26 PM
HighHorse Started Join Date: May 2007 Location: FLA Posts: 2,957	Last edited by HighHorse : 08-30-2007 at 08:59 AM.

06-13-2007, 09:32 PM
Mule Fool Started Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,283	If he's new to the concept of anything, maybe you're asking for too much yet? How long have you been working on this? What are you doing with him? Just need alittle more information.

06-13-2007, 09:33 PM
almost_mozart Started Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: .....transitioning..... Posts: 2,423	Well, I'd get him a little more broke before I worry about that. But a lot of times teaching collection can help. By getting him to flex his neck and carry his back better, you'll also help him get his butt underneath him.

06-13-2007, 09:55 PM
pvf Regional Forums Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 6,779	Try to get him to do this in a round pen before your ride him. Make sure he flexes good with you on the ground,disingage his hind quarters,have him pivot. __________________ www.prairieviewfarms.net Raising Reg. Paints and Quarter horses

06-13-2007, 10:02 PM
montanagirl Yearling Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 591	Does he understand how you want him to move his body? Clinton Anderson has good articles about creating suppleness and bending the horse, and getting him to yield forequarters and hindquarters. I think some good groundwork working on yielding to pressure would help. Then he'll figure out how to respond to the leg. __________________ No hour is ever wasted that is spent in the saddle. --Winston Churchill

06-13-2007, 10:08 PM
miss leanne Seasoned Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 4,532	lots of good advice here. the only thing I can add is backing him up and getting his weight on his hocks and rolling him back over in the opposite direction. If you can get him to at least do a LITTLE pivot off the hind end, he'll get the picture. But I agree... that should come MUCH later... i'd work on giving to pressure and stopping first and foremost. And the one-rein stop... a must have.

06-14-2007, 10:34 AM
HighHorse Started Join Date: May 2007 Location: FLA Posts: 2,957	Ok, maybe I was a little frusterated when I posted this. He does have a good whoa. He is also doing well with small pivots. I just feel like everytime we stop I'm going forward. His bend leaves a lot to be desired.He seems to always want to turn his head to the right when were going to the left. I do groundwork with him, and it's the same story. I have even tried using a surcingle, but he just stops and sulks. After this, getting to move forward is a pain in the butt! I have had better results in the saddle on this matter. But, yes, maybe it's too much too soon. I just didn't want do the wrong thing, and form a bad habit. Thanks to everyone for their advice!

06-14-2007, 11:31 AM
pippy Long Yearling Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: minnesota Posts: 1,168	What type of bit are you using? When you wrote: He pulls at the bit, won't bend, and has gaites that I can't hardly even post to....it makes me think he could be uncomfortable in the bit you are using, hence the pulling, stiffness, heavy in the front. I had this problem with one of my horses in the past, I researched ways to make him 'lighten up' and collect Larry Trocha has decent advice here: http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/bittinginfo.htm I purchased some of his dvd's. I really like him and what he says. I ride both western and some English, the advice works for either when it comes to starting/ reteaching a horse, bits to use and collection. I've tried following his advice, went back to a snaffle (7/16) and then to the 3/8. By golly, it seems to be working! I'm encouraged. I bought an o-ring myler (level 1). So far so good. Good Luck! __________________ Put your heart, mind, intellect, and soul even to your smallest acts. This is the secret of success.\" â€“ Swami Sivananda Saraswati

06-14-2007, 11:41 AM
DoBeSassy Kid Safe Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 5,195	I would say it's a bit thing as well ,or a mouth thing. I have been told by a reining trainer that they teach their young horses with a bosal becuz their mouth is doing so much changing that the bit does more harm than good in the training process.

06-14-2007, 01:51 PM
AlbertaGirl Greenbroke Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Alberta Posts: 3,431	Have his teeth been done? Are you sure he's not in pain anywhere else? I'm a pretty big believer in having dental work done, and in equine chiropractors. Otherwise, more ground work - round pen, line driving, etc. I usually tie their head to one side, rein through the stirrup and back up to a d-ring, with one side shorter, other side loose, to get them to give to the bit. If you're doing this stuff already - sorry Here's a pic of what I mean (don't mind the "rails" - 2 pieces of windboard - in the background, the former owner's of my place built it, and it's been taken down, the colt in my pic was really quiet, I wasn't worried about him going through it) __________________ Some people say horses don't have a sense of humor... they obviously haven't met mine yet ;o)

06-14-2007, 01:57 PM
Slim Pikkens Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,998	Using a snaffle bit, stand facing his shoulder. Take the bit ring in your little finger and coax (give and release) his nose around to your hip. He may pull back, he may not bend. If so, ask him to bring his nose an inch. Release the pressure. Do not allow him to return his head but push it back. It's your decision, not his. Keep working on those inches and soon he will bend his neck. You might have to put your other hand against his neck near the jaw to help him get the idea of bending.

06-16-2007, 09:30 AM
HighHorse Started Join Date: May 2007 Location: FLA Posts: 2,957	Thank for all the websites. I will start navigating through them ASAP. BTW, I am using a Kimberwick. His former owner used a twisted o-ring snaffle (he hated it!), and a Hack. I am not used to traing in a Hack so I didn't want to use something I wasnt familiar with. I agree that he may need to have his teeth floated. However, I have checked his mouthto be sure that the bit is not banging up against his wolf teeth. Thanks to all, you guys were a wealth of information!!!! Cna't wait to get started on some of the techniques you've shared!

06-16-2007, 10:01 AM
JoAnne Started Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 2,442	Other people have adressed bits and suppling his neck. Re getting his legs under him, try serpentines, circles, figure eights, all the change of directions make them put hocks under them. try them at walk and trot first, canter just reg circles till he is more balanced. also transitions, walk trot, trot canter and back to trot. And lunge him, eventually introducing surcingle and side reins (side reins loose at first, and don't use them too much at teh walk, tighten them slowly as he gets more supple, read up on lunging etc, that is what my trainer is doing now with my just turned five youngster) It takes a while for them to learn balance under a rider and use their hind end better, be patient, let him reach down for the bit rather than ask for artifical collection/headset, they can give you the headset if it is asked too soon, while still having a hollow back and stiff gaits, by not powering from behind and using thier whole body.

06-16-2007, 12:21 PM
Smilie Halter broke Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alberta canada Posts: 195	Hi This horse neeeds to go back to basics-an o ring snaffle and basic suppling excercises A horse that does not understand basic correctness of body aleignment and collection, does not belong in a kimberwick. You can use a bosel, but not a mechanical hackamore Wolf teeth-don't check if the bit is making contact-get them pulled, and have teeth floated I don't know of how familiar you are with developing lightness , frame and collection in a young horse, but the topic is too huge to go into here. You use a snaffle with the direct rein, and re-infornce with the indirect rein. Leg is used to keep body aleignment through the ribs and hip-reins control the front third of the horse You always ride with more legs than hands, driving horse onto the bit until you feel him soften in your hands. The horse is taught to keep shoulders up and drive from behind-this gets them working off their rear, instead of dragging themzelves around on their front end, heavy on the bit and strung out behind Various excercises like roll backs will help a horse learn to keep hind end engaged-but basically hind end engagement is collection-thats where it starts and it goes on to include head set , but does not start there. All too often people become obsessed with head set, using all kinds of devises like draw reins, but failing to use enough leg to get collection. They wind up with a horse that has a head set, often getting behind the verticle, but strung out, four beating a t the lope, because they are not collected-just have a head set. __________________ Great horses are born, not made, we only put on the refinement

06-16-2007, 01:00 PM
JoAnne Started Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 2,442	Hi...like Smilie said, it is a complex subject, we are all still learning, I'd recommend reading up on basic dressage, I can't speak for western but in english basic training before collection the horse should move freely and in balance first, collection is introduced gradually as the horse gets stronger from his hind end and able to get his hocks further under him. This in turn raises his rib cage and poll and as the rider keeps him in light contact, he will flex his neck as part of stretching his back. Many people acheive a "headset" to make the horse look like he is collected, what that does is force a horse to arch his neck by port bits,very heavy restrictive contact, or draw reins. But though his neck is arched, his back is still hollow, (with resulting jarring gait you are feeling) His rear legs are not stepping under his body.