Should I worry??? Help needed

[Dusty's girl]

Kinda long (sorry guys but I don't know what's important and what's not, don't want to leave anything out)

Ok so everything with my new horse Rooney has been great... we went on a trail ride, did a few lessons, even worked in the round pen and started Parelli's games.. everything was going great.

Last week I went to hop on him after work, just a little trot work cause all he wants to do is either walk or canter.... fought during the canter when I asked him to slow down, a little buck in him, but I ran it out of him. We went riding a few days later with some friends, he was fine , like nothing happened....

Wednesday I went out after work and we tacked up, and it was awful! We tacked up, went out to the field where we normally work and warmed up, walked the length a few times, we were practicing whoa (he's great in the pen with it, but lacks in the saddle). Well I asked him to whoa and he started to buck, I wasn't ready, lost my balance and fell. Little just looked at me like, stupid human... I take him back to round pen, lunge the out of him, we join up, he takes commands.... so I take him back out and we start again... he's good for maybe a minute and he starts to buck again, gets me off and bucks for a few minutes, goes to the fences to be let in his pasture... took him and lunged him again forever, and we restablished who was in charge, and then I put him away cause it was too dark to try agin....

My trainer thinks he is just being a 5 year old and throwing a tantrum (which I can handle), he's fine when other people and horses are around even if he is not with them, but if its just him working we seem to have this problem.....

should I worry or will he just get over it? did I do the right thing when he acted up? (I think I am going to try circles next time, but I was just shocked how my calm horse was doubling as a bronco) Any trick or tips on how to get our way through these five year old flips....

Thank you oh wise ones...

Oh and just a note, he is dead calm when i approach him after he does it, he even looks like oh man, but Mom I didn't want tooooo!!! no whites in eyes, no snorting, nothing....

[Luvpaints]

Maybe he pinched something in his back. Try massaging him to see if he is sore. Have your vet ( or whomever) try some chiro on him. He might have rolled or played a little too rough and hurt himself. Just an idea. There is probly an underlying reason as to why he is acting like this if this is not his norm.

[JoAnne]

Eehh...that is a tough one, as he is only five and you don't know him that well. how long has he been under saddle, how long have you owned him, and what is his background?

Per above, wouldn't hurt to get a vet out, in case it is a physical issue. And have his teeth looked at, if he tends to buck when you pull on bit like to whoa, he could have tooth pain/abcess in mouth or just need them floated ( also because he is young, did he have wolf teeth taken out? they can cause pain if still sometimes)

In the meantime, I'd lunge him before you ride, to get the buck out, but have dentist come and check him, rule it out so you know if it is a behaviour issue or not. If you lunge him in halter or cavesson with no bit in mouth, is he different than when he has a bit in his mouth? also saddle fit can bother them.

[AlbertaGirl]

I agree on having a chiropractor look at him 100%! And also to having his teeth checked out. Those are 2 of the most commonly overlooked things that cause behaviour like that. I had a stud that was super quiet, could ride him with mares in heat, and then he got hurt (which I didn't realize), and almost everytime I rode, he'd buck! He never bucked when I started him, or through anything I did with him (including loping thorugh deep snow, while hauling 3 kids in a sled, and me up), so I kept thinking he was just being "bad'. It became a nasty cycle, with me working the poop out of him in the round pen in between, I'm embarrased to admit , until someone else pointed out that maybe he was hurt... sure enough, he was out all over the place! It took a few chiro appointments, but he went back to the sweet, quiet horse he was. Sure can't hurt anything to have that ruled out - good luck!

[Dusty's girl]

OK well I think I will call a Chiro tonight and make an appointment, I will go try riding him tonight and see if is still acting up, and i might try a new saddle. I actually am using some else b/c I know mine does not fit him at all, maybe I will see if my BO has another one I can use, just to play around and see if thats it.

The people I bought him from weren't his original owners, but I do know that their kids rode him and all he was used for was walking or cantering in the field, some jumping in the arena. He's been under saddle at least since he was 3 that we know of. I've only had him 3 weeks so its hard to say what norm is I guess. My dentist checked his teeth when I got him and there were no wolf teeth.

The more i think of it, he might be sore, I mean the guys gotten more work in the last three weeks then he has in six months, heck, I'm sore after our workouts.... through in being told what to do, I bet he isn't happy...

I'm also going to have someone that is a much better horse person then me ride him tomorrow and see if its something I might be doing.

[JoAnne]

he could just be sore, try giving him a few days off in addition to all else. I am sure you will resolve it, just be patient sounds like you are on some good tracks re solutions.

[Faceman]

I'm not sure why you are calling a Chiropractor or attributing it to soreness.

If I have interpreted your post correctly, the pattern was buck alone, fine with a group, then buck alone again. That sounds emotional rather than physical to me unless there was some other physical variable on the group ride.

Well, roundpenning the out of him didn't work, did it? He "joined up" and then turned around and did the same thing again.

Roundpenning is not the answer to all things, and obviously didn't do the job with your guy.

I'm not sure how long you have had him or what his or your background are, but it sounds to me as if a "time out" is in order to go back and attend to some basics - establishing trust first - then respect. You don't need a temporary fix as he will just do the same thing again eventually. You need a permanent fix.

My suggestion is spend some quality time with him without asking him to work. Establish yourself as the protector - halter him and guide him safely through some scary stuff. My favorite is to walk them through the woods on a lead on a very windy or stormy day, singing quietly to them, stroking them, and making them turn to me for security. When he trusts you enough to turn to you for security, he will want you ON his back - not off...

Just my opinion and methods here - a little different than many...

[NoniMe]

Just my opinion and methods here - a little different than many...

Perhaps they are; but most every time I read a post of yours, it makes sense...and I learn something.

Best-
Noni

[juliebean]

Well I used to ride at a stable and they hade 2 horses that would do this sort of stuff on occasions.

One was a 12 year old QH. He was used for beginners and I get he just got tired of all the walk, trot, canter, stop stuff so during a lesson he just freaked out and started rearing, bucking, and ramming other horses into the rail. And to solve this they just started putting more experienced riders on him and making him work hard, after a couple of weeks of this he was happy to go back to walk, trot, canter, stop. (Not to imply your a beginner)

The second one was a 7 year old QH. And he was my mount for a lesson and as soon as I asked him to move out he started acting up. So I was asked to go into the middle of the arena. Well once we got there he started rearing and eventually fell backwards . So the instructor told me to go get another horse that she would ride this one. She got on and jabbed him with her spurs into a rear and just as he was about to fall backwards she through her wait ford and when he tried to go down she would yank him backup. When she finally let him down she asked him to go again and he started bucking like crazy and all she did was ride him out of it and then gallop around the arena until he was lathered up good. After that he was fine.

But like the others said I would have him checked first to rule out physical stuff. But if he is still acting up after that I would suggest having a very experienced ride come and just ride him out of it and then work him really hard.

[AlbertaGirl]

Originally Posted by Faceman

I'm not sure why you are calling a Chiropractor or attributing it to soreness.

If I have interpreted your post correctly, the pattern was buck alone, fine with a group, then buck alone again. That sounds emotional rather than physical to me unless there was some other physical variable on the group ride.

Just my opinion and methods here - a little different than many...

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents here... obviously Faceman picked up on something most of us missed here, if that's the correct pattern of what happened! If that's the case, I guess I'd like to amend my reply to say that I agree with the suggestions to gain/re-gain respect too, as it sounds like it may be needed. Thanks for pointing that out Face!

I still don't think it would hurt to have a chiro rule out any physical problems though , as the horse I mentioned in my post would not buck every time I rode him, which was why I took so long to clue in to his pain . In his case, it was hard turns, and something to do with hills that made it unbearable for him. I think at times, like on a trail ride with other horses, and no hills or hard turns, he was able to grin and bear it, so to speak. The chiro found him to be out in his poll, withers, pelvis, one hip, and several ribs , among what I remember. Because he was left like that for a while, I ended up having him adjusted several times, and it was by a couple different chiros and they were finding a few of the same areas out (not all things went back out after the first major adjustment).

[irishmusic]

Ha ha! just went through this with a friends gorgeous 5 yo quarter horse. He was refusing her commands and bucking. Bucked her off and she was pretty bruised up. Changed saddles, changed pads, got a chiropractor - still would refuse commands and buck.

Finally she got another rider (with an excellent seat) on him who made him obey, and stopped him when he started to buck. He WAS throwing a hissy fit!!

[Smilie]

Hi
I agree with faceman. The horse acts different when with other horses, is new to you, and probably testing limits
While it is always good to rule out a physical problem first, all too often bad horse behavior is blamed on the horse being out in his body when the problem really is in his head
Certainly make sure you have a saddle that fits. Can you have the former owner come and ride the horse? That would help to determine if the horse is just testing you.
After you lunged and round penned the horse, what did you do with him? Did you get back on , making him work and ending on a good note, or did you turn him back out, thus re -inforceing in his mind that if he refuses to work by bucking, he will be rewarded and turned out to eat or be with buddies again
Anyone who has ever ridden young horses and showed them, will tell you that it is very common for them to test limits-not during the first year, when they are green, but after a year or so, when they become show smart. Usually it never happens suddenly, but gradually by the rider letting little things slide. For instance, a horse that has been taught to respond to very light leg and do an instant walk to lope transitition, might become less responsive. The new rider lets it slide, because eventually th horse does pick up the lope. Soon that horse starts to refuse to pick up the lope-period, and lets his resentment show by either freeezing up when a leg is put on him, or by downright defience of bucking or rearing
I'm not saying a high performance athlete, like a reiner or cutter can't benefit from the odd adjustment or massage, but the pendelum has swung the other way now, with lightly used recreational horses instantly having any mis behavior attributed to being out somewhere
I truly believe that if one breeds good conformational horses and has a good training program, you probably never need to use a chriopracter.
I've trail riddden and shown many horses and have never had a horse adjusted. they get regular vet care when needed, and proper feeding and immunizations. They also learn good work ethics.
most recreational horses today don't do a fraction of the work horses did in the past, horses that worked regularily on ranches for a living. These horses remained sound and worked honestly-even when the vet care available today didn't exist. Part of the problem being that horses that couldn't stand up to work were culled
The horse isn't working too much. Rule out a physical problem, including the tack fit, but then establish yourself as the leader who decides how long and at what task the horse works at.
Bucking has to be made uncomfortable. I don't know how experienced a rider you are, but if you can take his head to the side and spur the hips around hard, when he ofers to buck-bucking will become less desireable.
Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.

[Dusty's girl]

Thank you all for your input... here is a little update...

My BO is starting her equine chiropractor training and she looked and really thinks he isn't in any pain, so I am going to wait on that for a bit. The reason why i am a little jumpy about making sure he isn't in pain is because of how I lost my last horse, who I thought was just being a butt but in turn had another case of EPM. I just worry.

But I did reevaluate my methods here. I think I am rushing it too much, he's five and has been thrown into a new place, the only constant he has is those other horses in the field. So we've been doing a lot of non riding things lately... anything to build hid confidence in me. Parelli's games, leading him through the trails in halter, baths, lunging, my goal being that he understands I am boss, not him. We are going to stick to trail rides with groups for now just to keep him fresh, letting the groups get smaller and smaller, while we work on our bond. No riding in the arena or anything by myself until he listens well on the ground. So far its going well, he joins up follow me all over and we are great with the friendly and porcupine game we are moving up to our next game tonight

In the meantime I am also riding one of our lessons horses again just to keep working on my own issues.

[gbarmranch]

You may not like my opinion or suggestion - but I think he is buddy sour and disrespectful, and I would tie his little hinny up for a while until he learned respect and patience.. We are old school in some respects, but even CA will agree that tying is one of the most overlooked training methods - and the great thing is, it is easy to do and it works.

If he throws a fit, leave him there... he needs to learn that he must answer to you - nicely; and that the herd will still be there when he is ALLOWED to return to it... the stupider he acts,, the longer he stays tied... You will be amazed at what a difference this can make

[stoneycreek]

I have to agree with you gbar. Alot of people have forgotten how much tying a horse can teach it on quite a few things.

[Dusty's girl]

Gbar~ I actually thought about that, I just wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not.... how far should I be from the herd. Should I make sure he can see the herd but can't get to them or take them all the way away?

He really doesn't mind it when we are on the ground, only when we are riding and no one else is.... he's lazy, his old owner told me that too.

[gbarmranch]

Start where he can see the herd, and gradually increase the distance over a few days. If you have a good trailer you can tie him too, this is a great way to move him. Once he starts getting comfortable alone, then make him stand where he can not see the others.

It is never a quick fix, but really well worth the effort. I also take them for walks - like a dog - once they are comfrotable away from the others before riding them out ther. Easier to control stupid behavior, and allows for bonding and lead mare position.

I will caution you to be around when he is tied in case he gets into trouble - then untie him, straighten him out, and tie his herd bound little butt back up. He should only be allowed to go back to the herd after he has stood quietly for at least 10 minutes... no pawing, calling, nuttin honey

[Perrys_mama]

As for how far...you will know

As the owner of one terminally lazy horse, and another terminally terrified horse (Spooky, named for a reason) I find that taking them "away" for training sessions helps a lot.

Perry is "away" as soon as we leave the driveway (100 yards from the herd or less)

Spooky is "away" when she stops whinnying and turns to me for cues when she freaks...usually about 500 yards away.

I've never tried just tying them...we just leave in the same businesslike manner we start all sessions, walk a ways, and when I have attention and adequate space, we start the lessons. It also makes for a nice change of pace for me...that round pen is BOOOORING.

This technique is what took Perry from normal stupid-weanling to a horse that will walk quietly beside a train as long as "mom" is there holding the lead rope.

[Quarters N Paints]

Just a quick question on one of your comments in your first post " He bucked but I Ran it outta him"????????? And this solves/ proves what may I ask?????????????

Bucking is just that and running him isn't going to fix that, he is either throwing a tantrum or scared bucking ( some colts get scared and buck),or ...............
Sounds like a tantrum and he does it while asked to trot and or ride alone, which running him because he bucks isn't going to fix anything at that point he is just running, not learning a darn thing. you have already stated he likes to walk or canter/ run. So..............

Collect him back up and start him over, reprimand him for his action immediately either with verbal combined with getting his head up/ or pulling him up abruptly and circling tightly to bring his attention back to you.
Start him immediately back over with the excercise you were doing when the bucking started, also learn his warning sign for bucking, they all have one, and stop it before it starts by asking for something he has to think about, not just running, I mean turn, change speed or lead, stop and back, ect... when you see the warning sign, before the bucking.

Works wonders, sounds like he has some holes in his base work and they have come back to bite you now.
Just my opinion, take it for what it is worth.