What are my rights?? Long sorry

[mistiobregon]

I bought a horse 2 weeks ago that I went out and rode several times and spent months looking for. I have looked at a dozen. She was not cheap considering the current market here, but I paid $3000.00 for her thinking that I was getting a well trained horse. The day I picked her up I met with the trainer and video taped her training session so that I could continue with her current training. During that session the horse tripped and fell (the trainer thought she slipped on a pee spot) She seemed a little sore, but recovered during the workout and we took her home. In the 2 weeks that she has been here she has completely turned into a different horse. I called her trainer and she said that in the 9 days???? that she had her she never noticed problems. (She was represented as having more training, and when I questioned this I was told prior training.) She bucked me off, and I am not a super experienced rider, so I have had 2 very good riders who have done this all their life come out and work with her. One was bucked about the whole straight of the arena, and the other had to hold her back the whole time. A less of a rider would have come unseated during the bucking. It was suggested to me that I just need to work with her and train her. I don't know how to train a horse. I can work with one in a round pen and do bending exercises, warm ups, backing exercises, etc... But I wanted to buy a trained horse that I could continue with, not have to teach, that is why I was willing to pay what I did. I have tried less alfalfa different saddles, bits, etc.... The problem is that the horse is greener than she was represented. The owner seems reasonable, however, I just want to know what I could or should expect, I have not dealt with this before, I let the lady know several time during the first 2 weeks that things were not working out. BTW did I mention I am crushed? I really wanted this to work out; the previous horse we were going to purchase did not do well on his pre-purchase exam and has major medical issues, so we did not get him. I feel heart broken and now that very experienced riders are having problems with her, there is no way I am getting on her, or my daughter to take lessons which was the purpose. Please know in your responses that I am not a flaky buyer. I put a lot of research and effort into this whole thing. I took lessons before, during, and after purchasing her. I warm up properly and am really trying to do this right. I don’t know HELP.

[TxHorseMom]

Did you have a trial period? Do you have a written contract? What does it say? Have you contacted the owner? Have you asked them to take the horse back? There are a lot of what if's.

The first thing I would do is contact the previous owner and discuss the situation.

[mistiobregon]

I have a purchase agreement which is just the amount I bought her for. Upon buying her I asked if I could call them with any problems I had, (owner and trainer) and they both said yes, please call with any concerns, which I nave done from the first problem until today. This morning I suggested returning her and the previous owner does not know if she can afford to return my money. I am willing to allow her to take her time and I said this, however, I don’t know if this is something she wants to do. She needed time to think about it and is going to get back to me? I just don’t know what my rights are. I am a lover not a fighter, however, when backed into a corner I will show my teeth.

[NoniMe]

I have no real advice to offer - I'm the bruised lady a few posts below. But one of the things I've learned is too much too fast makes a dangerous situation.

Maybe give her a bit more time to settle into the new barn, the new routine, and the new owner. did you spend any ground time with her? Hand walks? Anything like that? Maybe some time without riding? Just hanging out?

Dunno...and I have no idea about rights, either...but I wish you the best of luck, and hope it all comes right.

Best-
Noni

[instigatorkate]

I hate to be the downer, but it sounds like you legally bought the horse. She's your problem and responsibility now. It's the same with buying a used TV, by agreeing to the sale you agree that it is in acceptable condition for you, and that it works when you bought it. No guarantees or refunds if it breaks later that night. Horses by nature are unpredictable, and the minute you bought her she could become a fire-breathing dragon, or drop dead, and it's STILL YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!!! Doesn't necessarily mean that they screwed you over.

The only thing you can do legally is if you can prove that they intentionally misled you, drugged her, or grossly misrepresented the horse. That would require witnesses who were willing to testify and a lengthy (and expensive) lawsuit. But, most of these cases are thrown out, because it's almost impossible to prove that they maliciously and intentionally sold you a "lemon" of a horse.

You have several options:
1.) return the horse to the owner, ideally for a refund of the purchase price, but more likely for a deeply discounted price. I'd ask for $2500 back, but be willing to take $1800. It's not necessarily their fault the horse isn't acting the same as she did for her old owners in her old environment.
2.) Place the horse up for sale. Be prepared to be honest why you're selling.
3.) Invest in some training for both you and the horse and hope it works out.

[JoAnne]

so very sorry this is happeneing to you. seems a lot of this lately, perhaps now internet has allowed this kind of thing more, used to be people bought from those they knew...I don't want to advise on legal rights ( kinda doubt you have any that could be enforced )

What I can do is offer my experience and that is ( a lifelong rider, I just purchased my own green horse I got hurt on, so don't feel bad, and yes, I am following my own advice and sending him for training!)

Here it is as I see it...one, please list for us the horse's good qualities. he must have some or you would not have bought him. also, allow him some time to settle down. do not try to ride him yourself yet, or ask friends over to ride him. even tho you spent a lot, if there is any way you can get money to spend on a trainer to come out. have them work with the horse at your place for a couple of weeks to get him on the right track and over the bucking. then have them start you, or an instructor start you, on the horse. have trainer come out once a week or however much you can afford for a while. ( please make sure also a bad saddle fit or other issue is not causing bucking? ) Assuming your horse has all the good qaulities you liked about him, either you will work thru the problem and settle into a good riding partnership, or at least the training and keeping him in training will allow you to sell him. Beleive it or not, bucking is not the worst vice a horse can have. There is an answer for it, either fear of new place, pain, or just a nasty habit. At least is is an "honest" habit, it is what it is, and a trainer can restart him and get him out of it. then he could go on to be a great horse. ( second part of advice, have trainer come to your place. if you move horse to a trainer's barn, make it local and go there to watch the sessions. have heard too many bad stories about people sending horse away and horse comes back worse than before )

This was a long post but the point of it is, don't try to solve it alone. Worth every penny for a good professional. There is hope . I have over 20 years experience, owned 2 other horses no problem. Recently bought my first green horse. I was on an ego trip and thought I could do it all myself! then I took a bad fall and got hurt, and I can't even blame the horse. So don't do what I did, now I have to spend the money I should have spent the first month for a trainer to come help! anyway, good luck, try not to get upset, it is solveable, you just don't want to get hurt or a friend to get hurt till you get past it.

[aussieshep]

You stated that she tripped and fell, did she just stumble, go to her knees, or all the way down? Has a vet examined her since the fall? She could have knocked herself out of alignment, and maybe need something as simple as an adjustment? It's just a thought, and maybe something worth looking into......

[JoAnne]

hi wanted to ad to my long post!! me again!!

Tho I advised not to ride her till someone helps re training, it would be great to spend as much time as possible on ground with her, making friends, leading, round penning, whatever you are comfy doing.

there is also a calming supplement called EX-STRESS, or similar ones, the good ones have magensium and vitimin B which helps.

Did you vet check horse before you bought her? re the bucking and then a big stumble before you bought her home, some kind of stifle/pain issue...maybe have vet come out? also bug seller for at least some of your money back re having to get a trainer etc. you may not have a legal enforceable right but if you call them etc they might do it, you never know...again good luck, try not to get mad at the horse and enjoy her good points and her on ground till it is solved.

[Kristen]

Definitely get some help with this. I bought a horse that was located 5 hours away, brought him home and had nothing but trouble. He was "broke", so I was told. He would rear when I saddled him, pull back when I tied him and freak out in the trailer. So I bought an open trailer and sold my 2 horse straight load. My boyfriend (who's dad is a qh breeder and he's worked with horses his whole life) loaded him into the trailer and stood with him so calm him.

The horse reared up in the trailer, pinned my guy to the front wall and came crashing down onto him. Luckily, my guy wasn't hurt but the horse bashed around so much he cut his head on a vent. We deemed the horse as unfit for me (at the time I was 17) and called the old owner. We had the horse about 2 weeks at this time. My dad pretty much insisted that we get our money back, which was $6,000. The new owner did agree and we loaded the horse in a 30 foot stock trailer, loose, 5 hours back to his owner.

Good luck! Bottom line, you paid alot for a horse you can't ride. If they think he's so wonderful, they should take him back and sell him to someone else.

[marti woodard]

I sure wish you luck. Almost the same thing happened to me a few months ago. I had looked and looked. Found one that seemed to be what I would like. I didn't do the right thing and come back for another look. I bought him right then. There were little girls climbing all over him and standing up in the saddle. All I wanted was a quiet trail horse to ride with my friends. (My trusty trail horse was on stall rest for 9 months.) The first time I rode him, two days after purchase, he was fine. We walked on the side of the rode, by flags, etc. and no problem. Oh boy the next time we rode it was all I could do to make him walk, and my no spook horse was now spooky. I ended up afraid so I tried to sell him and was so honest in my ad only one person called me. When they called I told the truth; I wouldn't ride him so obviously they wouldn't, which I don't blame them at all. However, things have gotten better. I did go to a clinic near here and they worked with us on the ground. I didn't do so hot but I learned what was important. He is better and I am not as afraid. I truly hope this works out for you because I almost gave up and said to heck with riding anymore but my friends kept at me. I blame me more than the horse. But I guarentee you she was not as she was shown to be, a dead broke trail horse.

[cboling]

Originally Posted by instigatorkate

I hate to be the downer, but it sounds like you legally bought the horse. She's your problem and responsibility now. It's the same with buying a used TV, by agreeing to the sale you agree that it is in acceptable condition for you, and that it works when you bought it. No guarantees or refunds if it breaks later that night. Horses by nature are unpredictable, and the minute you bought her she could become a fire-breathing dragon, or drop dead, and it's STILL YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!!! Doesn't necessarily mean that they screwed you over.

I agree you said in the post that you tried her out several times. I think you need to spend more time with her on the ground and become her alpha. And bond with her and get trust. You don't know what she's been through and before you sell her or offer her back for a cheaper price you need to try and fix this.

I know a lady that got a gelding and thought he was great until one day he bucked her off so high and far she came down on the fence. She came to me crying and very upset and wanted me to work with him. I couldn't for a while so I said when she feels better to start ground work, well she started all over from the start. That horse and her have a great bond now and they never needed me to step in and help.

Good luck with whatever you decide

[Bella's Favorite]

Now I'm no expert in any way, shape, or form but do you have a buy-back option? Since the former owners/trainers said you could ask any questions could you ask about any behavioral problems, maybe abuse in the past,bad experiences with new people? (Sadly, it does happen and can turn the best horses sour.) Is the horse fine during groundwork? Grooming? Pasture? ETC. Is it possible that he/she is having separation anxiety?(I don't know if it's possible in horses but if it is, then i'm sure it is worth looking into.Sorry this is so long, just 1 more I promise.) Once again, I'm no expert, but could you not try a sedative like moody mare or something for boys.(I forgot if your horse was a mare, gelding or stallion .)

[mistiobregon]

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses. I have pretty much only worked with her on the ground short of the day that she bucked me off (first time riding her at home) I wanted to get her acclimated to where we live (dogs, ducks, kids, quads) so everyday I have walked her through the corrals that we all lease and just spent time on respecting my space, stopping when I stop, backing up etc... I have also been tying her and grooming her everyday, cleaning her feet, wetting her down, brushing her. These are the things I love about her, She is sooo well behaved during all of that, however when I lunge her she is now crazy, running in on me, bucking, taking forever to calm down. I have allowed others to lunge her to see if it was my method, and even though they are more assertive they get the same results just with less sweat. The first indication of a problem was the second night I brought her home, I had asked the lady to allow me to worm her so I could put her on the same schedule as the other horses that I partner with. I brought out the wormer and we had a rearing fool. Holy cow, she got away, but was easy to catch. It didn't concern me to much as some horses don't like to be wormed, but then the bucking started when I was working her, even with a saddle and bridle on. The vet checked her before I bought her, but also before the training session when she fell??? She slid completely on her side. I am hoping the seller offers some kind of solution, so I don't have to come up with one.

So I am not completely down on her let me tell you, she is the prettiest horse, OMG, and so sweet to just groom and spend time with. She just does not want to be asked to do anything more than a walk. If you ask her to trot or canter you better watch yourself. She is sexy though and like I said, I have been told her blood lines are incredible. Tivio and Bueno and 2 eyed jack or something like that. I am clueless with all that.

[wildcat180]

It sounds to me like she hasn't had any time to just settle in. In the two weeks, you've groomed her nearly everyday, worked her from the ground (how often?) and all that stuff. When has she just been able to graze the pasture with you standing, or sitting, somewhere nearby? From what I got from your posts, you've asked something of her everytime you've been out with her. While she may be good for grooming, it's still asking her to do something for you. (IE pick up feet, stand still, can't graze...)

When I got my first horse, and the two after that, I gave each one of them as much time as they needed to just get used to their new environment. Kayode, my first horse, went two FULL weeks without me so much as even touching him. I just went out and stood at the fence, or sat in a spot in the pasture, and I just let him be. Thor got the same treatment, as did Leila. Each one required their own amount of time before they were "willing" to be engaged.

Kayode was 21 when I got him and well broke. But STILL he needed time to be left alone to get used to his new home. I started slowly, after it was obvious he was more comfortable here. I lunged him once a week for a short period of time. As he got more responsive and interested, I stepped up the work outs. It was roughly almost 2 months before I even put a saddle on him.

So, I'd give her time to just be a horse in a new place. Aside from that, I'd check the tack. Is it the same as what you tried her in? If it's not fitting properly, she may be reacting to that. The acting out on the lungeline could be her way of testing you and taking control as well. My Kayode will test even the most experienced horseperson, but once you establish you're boss, he's the greatest.

[pvf]

With our past experiences with new horses either with ones we own or that are in for training. I personally feel that you are trying to much to fast with her. I know alot of trainers that won't ride them for 2 weeks even if they are horses that are broke. They need time to adjust and some take longer than others. If you don't have respect on the ground with lunging her or in the round pen you are not going to have it when your riding her.

Your horse is trying to figure out who is alpha at her new home. And that can take awhile for her to figure that shes not the boss. But that has to happen on the ground before you get on and ride.

This is JMO. And I'm not saying that you are doing anything wrong - just if it was me this is what I would do.

[IndiaMom]

I can offer you absolutely no advice (since I am just a beginner). However, I wanted to wish you luck. I have a friend going through the same thing right now. He paid $1,000 for a horse he can't ride. In our economically depressed area, $1,000 ought to buy a nicely broke horse.

One last thought .... are you using the same bit that she is accustomed to? I know this made a big difference with my new horse. The previous owner tried her on a tom thumb right before I bought her and said it was a disaster. I bought the horse, along with the 'junior working cow horse' bit that she was used to.

Best of Luck,
Kristi

[Bella's Favorite]

Had a thought. Is she nuts in the round pen? What I mean is can you walk her into the round pen, take the lead line off and not get injured. If so try join-up. (I think that is what it is called.) It is based off the principle that horses are herd animals and need companions. Wear a helmet, just as a precaution, and if you don't feel that you or the horse is ready don't do it. You have to be confident that you will get the job done with no bloodshed and that your horse won't flip, but respect you as the leader of her herd. Good luck!!! *If any of this is wrong, please correct me. I think I got the facts right, but whose to say that the person knew about how to correctly join up?*

[Smilie]

Hi
I guess my first question is-how old is this horse, and is she just a colt with a good start on her, or was she represented as an older 'finished' horse?
Yes, horses need time to settle into new surroundings for a day or so, but a broke horse is a broke horse, and any that we have sold as such do not revert to bucking or other green horse things when they are place in new surroundings
A colt on the other hand, even though going well at the trainers and in familiar surroundings, will be a different horse when faced with new suroundings that take him out of his comfort zone. Anyone that has shown and seasoned young horses will tell you that. The horse will be riding beautifully in his home arena, but take him to his first show, or even to unfamiliar surroundings and you have a different story. I have brought lots of junior horses along over the years and can tell you the seasoning and exposure that young horse needs so that he becomes oblivious to distractions of new arenas and shows-so you no longer need to lunge them before riding at shows, and can just get on and warm them up under saddle-even with a band playing and children and dogs running in the stands. You can also ride such a horse out alone, along a road or on trails and he is reliable even when cars pass or cows come running up to the fence. This takes more than a few months of riding So-was this a well started young horse, never exposed to much away from home, or was the horse represented as a seasoned horse with experience to his credit.
If it is just a well started colt-then you are just dealing with a young green horse thing-they can ride great at home, but be totally different away from home until you have that bond and trust and the miles on that horse.
If the horse was represented as a seasoned horse-then one could consider the horse was mis represented. A well broke horse does not react like that in a new location-not any that I think are worth anything
The price to me, would place this in the range of a well started but not seasoned older horse. Those years of correct riding and exposure that makes a truly broke horse is worth more than $3,000 in my books.

[Smilie]

Hi
I guess my first question is-how old is this horse, and is she just a colt with a good start on her, or was she represented as an older 'finished' horse?
Yes, horses need time to settle into new surroundings for a day or so, but a broke horse is a broke horse, and any that we have sold as such do not revert to bucking or other green horse things when they are place in new surroundings
A colt on the other hand, even though going well at the trainers and in familiar surroundings, will be a different horse when faced with new suroundings that take him out of his comfort zone. Anyone that has shown and seasoned young horses will tell you that. The horse will be riding beautifully in his home arena, but take him to his first show, or even to unfamiliar surroundings and you have a different story. I have brought lots of junior horses along over the years and can tell you the seasoning and exposure that young horse needs so that he becomes oblivious to distractions of new arenas and shows-so you no longer need to lunge them before riding at shows, and can just get on and warm them up under saddle-even with a band playing and children and dogs running in the stands. You can also ride such a horse out alone, along a road or on trails and he is reliable even when cars pass or cows come running up to the fence. This takes more than a few months of riding So-was this a well started young horse, never exposed to much away from home, or was the horse represented as a seasoned horse with experience to his credit.
If it is just a well started colt-then you are just dealing with a young green horse thing-they can ride great at home, but be totally different away from home until you have that bond and trust and the miles on that horse.
If the horse was represented as a seasoned horse-then one could consider the horse was mis represented. A well broke horse does not react like that in a new location-not any that I think are worth anything
The price to me, would place this in the range of a well started but not seasoned older horse. Those years of correct riding and exposure that makes a truly broke horse is worth more than $3,000 in my books.

[JoAnne]

yes, knowing age of horse would help put perpective on it. I was assuming it was around 5 or 6 for some reason.