Training Trouble with 5yr old Gelding..

[Teddy44]

I bought a RMH Gelding a couple of years ago.. and last year he developed the problem of taking off into a deadrun when he comes upon a field. I think it's just because he's excited or it might be energy..but I dont know.. He's never tried to buck or anything, just runs. He's not a mean horse, doesn't bite or kick or buck, just has that small glitch. What can I do about it? He's a very sweet horse and loves attention and for the most part is pretty laid back, but he's young, will be 5 this year and hasnt had alot of groundwork.. so I've started to do some ground work with him. Backing, Moving off to left and right.. lateral flexion.. but I've had some trouble of getting him to back. He just kinda stands there.. and does nothing. How can I get him to back without actually hurting him. He's head shy and so.. I've been working with desensitizing him with the lead rope.. should I continue with that until he's completely desensitized before, starting his backing or should I start on the backing up now? How should I go about backing him up? and with the lateral flexion.. how do I know to release? how can I tell he's soft?[/b]

[taelesean]

One of the things you can do to control the running - make it your idea to run, and your idea when to stop. When you come to an open field and he want to run, ask him to run - then keep him running round and round the field until just a little past the point where he wants to stop. As he gets less eager to run when you come upon an open field, ask him to run, but just for a little bit. He'll get the idea that when he runs without you asking, he works harder than if he waits for you to decide when to run.

Keep up the ground work. Desensitizing is important - if he's shy of your tools, he spends more time reacting and less time thinking and learning.

If you are having trouble backing him up (or moving in any direction you ask for) remember to keep asking, increasing the pressure, until he shows the slightest attempt, then stop asking immediately and praise him (kinda like the colder/warmer game - colder = more pressure, warmer = realease of pressure)

Here's the progression of pressure my riding instructor taught me:

Waggle your finger at his nose

Waggle the leadrope

Waggle the leadrope more

Waggle the leadrope LOTS more

March in place, with esagerated motions of arms and legs, while waggleing the leadrope

March right at him, like he wasn't there - pretend you're a locomotive and he'd better move or get flattened

Some other things you can do to increase the pressure on him to back: (you can add any of these into the progression at any point after waggling the leadrope more)

Tap the leadrope with your cue stick or lunge whip

Press on his nose with two fingers, one either side of his face right about where the bone turns to cartilage - very uncomfortable for him, and the easiest way to avoid this is for him to back up

Press on his chest with your fingers/hand, cue stick or lunge whip.

Remember, don't let up on him till he makes some effort to move back - if you do, he'll think that whatever he was doing when you stopped asking was the right answer.

Also, remember to balance sensitising with desensitising.



For flexion, lightly take the rein on the side you want him to flex to and bring it towards your oposite shoulder (think Klingon salute) If his nose doesn't follow the rein and bit, tug rythmically on the rein until he brings his nose over - pretend there is a little bell on the bit, and you want to make it go ding, ding, Ding DING DING DING - tug and release until his nose comes round toward your knee. When he brings his nose over with less resistance, he is getting softer. When his nose comes round with just a little tug, and stays there until you let the rein drop, he's soft.

Remember again, don't stop asking unitl he brings his nose around at least a little bit, and release as soon as he does. Steady pulling on the rein/bit will increase resistance.

[cascy]

Have you ever taught him the one rien stop????

Not only would that help the running in the field, but can also be motified into an easier was of teaching to back then just pulling....

[SunnyKS]

Originally Posted by taelesean

One of the things you can do to control the running - make it your idea to run, and your idea when to stop. When you come to an open field and he want to run, ask him to run - then keep him running round and round the field until just a little past the point where he wants to stop. As he gets less eager to run when you come upon an open field, ask him to run, but just for a little bit. He'll get the idea that when he runs without you asking, he works harder than if he waits for you to decide when to run.

If the running doesn't frighten you then thats a good one. Running isn't so fun if it turns into a work out each time!

Does he understand the concept of backing when your on the ground with a halter?

[Teddy44]

Well.. when I attempt to back him up on the ground with the halter.. he either just stands there or he kinda throws his head up. He's kinda headshy so shaking the leadrope at him makes him nervous. I think the people that had em before us were kinda rough with him. He's been doing better though with it. I wasn't able to work with him yesterday because it was sloppy and rainy outside.

As for the running.. I am kinda scared when he runs with me because I cant stop him. He's never tried to throw me it's just a dead run around the field.. he just runs in a big circle..I've been trying to teach him the one rein stop, but I wasnt entirely sure on how to go about it. Thanks for all the information and stuff, it'll be something to try.

[Smilie]

Hi
Well, first of all, a horse who runs through the bridle isn't ready to be ridden in an open field. You need to go back to the old maxium of riding where you can and not where you can't. At the moment, you are in a similar situation of taking a car out onto the freeway without brakes-not a safe situation. I assume the fence controls the horse, but what if you were in wide open space?
This horse needs basics. Either send him to a good trainer, or at least take lesson along with the horse from someone who is good a putting a start on a 'colt'-green horse
Flexing is all good and well, but you need to combine it with body control, shoulder and hip This horse has never been taught be be soft in the bit, and has instead learned to run through it.
First, get into a small riding area-work on lots of transititions, stops shoulder excercises and gaits.
The one rein stop can be useful in an emergency, but I have never had a need for it. I prefer to get a horse broke instead, before riding him in the open
To back a horse under saddle, you never try and pulll him back with rein pressure. Instead, you form a bit barrier, use body language and leg-more leg if the horse sticks, never more rein, trying to pull a horse back. This gets them on their front end,,which sticks in the ground and the horse litterally drags himself back instead of lifting shoulders and stepping back
On the ground-if a horse is responsive to the lead shank, backing them should be no problem. Ask them to flex, just like you would under saddle, and then just say 'back', while walking towards them, keeping lead shank same position level wise as when you lead them forewards. You can press a finger into thier chest to re-inforce-do not flip lead shank at the horse, or it will only get them bracing and throwing head in the air-as you have found out.

[Nynx]

Does he get enough turn out time or more high energy feed than he really needs?

Those can contribute to a problem like taking off and although I doubt either increasing turnout or cutting back on high energy feed would completely fix his running off problem, I think it could be a good starting point.

When I go ride in big fields, I usually ride in an arena for a few minutes just to see if my horse feels like being a fool today. I walk, trot and do a few easy, calm loping circles. If he won't do easy and calm in an arena there is no way he's going to do easy and calm in a big open field. If he wants to be squirrly for a bit, we just run around in the arena till he gets tired enough to not really want to run in the arena anymore. Of course, that is just me, my silly horse and my opinions...

[Teddy44]

Well, I dont have an Arena... and we dont have a horse trailer to get him to one, so couldnt I just ride him in the yard? Well.. we dont give them feed usually, sometimes we give em cracked corn but not often. He's turned out all the time.. although the pasture isn't really big so that may contribute. They have an open stall so they can go in and out as they please. I have trouble in getting the bit in his mouth too.. he tends to fight me.. when I try to get the bit in his mouth. I'm using a snafflebit for training. Any thoughts?

[snickers]

I cant add to the advice on training.

I would do away with the cracked corn, unless mixed in with sweet feed.

Corn is high and will give excess energy and not goog to feed it plain.

Feeding corn iteself can cause problems now and later.

On the bit, you needtot go back to square one in giving.
Use your fingers in the side of his mouth to open it and gently slide the bit in. Do this a few times withou riding and reward him when he doesnt fight you.
When taking it off, do it gently.

Sounds like he has had a bad experience with bits.

You can also train without a bit for now and use a bosal or training hackamore.

[SunnyKS]

Well free advice is a get what you pay for kind of deal!

But one thing I learned about teaching a horse to back is that I didn't understand that it is a process and not act. When I pulled back I expected two or three steps back but first they have to flex thier head then they ever so slightly shift weight back then a full weight shift back then maybe just slightly move a shoulder then move a foot. It was explained to me that goal is to get each one of these movements in turn.

For example once they flex thier head you release all pressure and reward. Then once they have that mastered that you flex then wait for the tinyest of weight shifts and you quick release and reward. Make sense?

Also I found once I had confused my horse these steps take longer. Might want to work on one movement a day or even a week. I like to show it to them on the ground in a halter first. That way I can push on the chest or neck for an added hint. The most important thing is to release and reward even the smallest try so that they don't just lock up when they don't understand.

As far as the running would it be possible to take him to his favorite running off spot and lounge him? That might make him associate the running with real work....if nothing else it would help burn off some steam!

[Teddy44]

I rode today! XD the guy that trained him came down and rode him today and said he did ok and so.. it might be just a confidence problem on my behalf, so he's gonna come down on sunday and we're gonna take a ride. He said he'd help as long as I need him to, so that's cool and he said it's free so, he's not gonna charge me He did really good today, I was able to make him stand, when I've never been able to before.. all he needed was an attitude adjustment I think.

[iris_surreal_euphoria]

Another thing to look into if you haven't already is his teeth. He may need them floated. I also agree with the above posts, stay away from the "quesion mark" areas for a bit and work on ground work. A yard would be fine. Practise with him on the ground , then from the saddle. Leading a horse and teaching them "whoa" has worked for me. Lead him with a halter and lead. When you say Whoa you stop and if he doesn't he runs his chest into your elbow. Warning: Watch those feet! First time I did it Rebel and I looked like a train wreck. If he is especailly hard to stop put the bit in his mouth and lead him by the reins. When you say whoa stop, if he doesn't pull the reins as if you were mimicking what it would feel like from the saddle. Remember to release with the slightest attempt so he knows what gives him pressure release. It sounds to me like he was dulled. You've got to sensitize him.

Best of luck to you!

[Slim Pikkens]

He doesn't understand backing up. Face rearward, as that is the direction you wish to go. Hold the lead across your body with your right hand. Put a little pressure on the halter and hold steady. Reach with your left and lightly poke the point of his shoulder. If he only rock back a few inches, your finger should be off him and your halter hand didn't move, so the pressure would be off the nose band. If he won't move, lightly pinch the skin on pt of shoulder, gradually working to a good pinch. You should have a response by then. Horses really need three chances. One, they're not sure what you want. Two, he's starting to get the hang of it. Three, he should be doing it not too badly. The reason he tosses his head is he's resisting you. You can hold the side rings and gently bend his head around, maybe an inch. Don't allow him to straighten his head. You push it back. Inch by inch he will bring his head around.

[SunnyKS]

Originally Posted by Teddy44

I rode today! XD the guy that trained him came down and rode him today and said he did ok and so.. it might be just a confidence problem on my behalf, so he's gonna come down on sunday and we're gonna take a ride. He said he'd help as long as I need him to, so that's cool and he said it's free so, he's not gonna charge me He did really good today, I was able to make him stand, when I've never been able to before.. all he needed was an attitude adjustment I think.

That's wonderful! It really is nice if the rider and horse can learn from the trainer at the same time. I know I learned SO much that way! Everyone does things different and since it all really boils down to communication it's a great thing when you both are speaking the same languge (or however the heck that word is spelled!) And yeah big time on the FREE part!