Very nervous horse

[Lopin]

I have a 3 1/2 yr old that I'm training for a customer. I've had him since the middle of May and he was fresh out of the field. I took it slow with his groundwork (3 months), lunging, bitting and long lining. He was a nervous horse since day 1, but the more repetition he had, the better he got.

I broke him under saddle in Sept and he was great. His teeth were bad, and I knew that, but the dentist was coming in Oct to do him. We had a bit of trouble walking/trotting along the rail because he would cock his head sideways. I figured once his teeth were fixed, he'd be better. His canters have always been fine. Since his appt w/the dentist, he stopped cocking his head, and he wears the bridle better, but now he's just a nervous nellie under saddle.

He stands like a perfect gentleman to get on (he's 16.2) and seems relaxed. He'll walk around once, sometimes twice, sometimes, 1/2 the ring and then explodes. He'll be jumping off his feet, through the center, throwing his butt into the rail, smashing your knees into the rail and then sometimes he'll go back to walking, or just stop and shake.

I've never hit this guy, I don't raise my voice at him (otherwise he thinks the world is going to end) and I'm easy going with him. I take my time.
He's shown me that you can't move too fast with him, and I don't. I don't get mad at him.

I thought it was me when I rode him, so I have put two different people up on him, both of different riding styles and capabilities. (but both with very good seats ) and he's just as bad. I demand a lot from my horses, but I understand when they're babies I can't and I don't ask for as much as an "old pro" until I think they can handle it.

He's a beautiful horse with a lot of talent and everyone in the barn loves him. He has a great personality, but you can't ride personality.

I think he needs a mental break, so his shoes are being pulled off Monday and he will either be put out to pasture until March, then we'll try again or else I can send him back home to his owner and she will decide what to do with him. #1, I won't sell a horse who is dangerous and #2, I don't get paid enough to get myself hurt.

Do you think a break will do him any good or does he have a screw loose upstairs?

[gbarmranch]

I would try to give him some more time to grow mentally and then try him again. If that does not work, send him home.. Some horses are just born that way and will never be quiet or trust worthy!!!

[johnny&corkscrew]

My horse was like that. His attention would only last a few minutes and if he would see something going on somewhere else he would just put his head up and his chest would quiver. I finally had him checked out. He had gastric ulcers. You might want to check that out. Ulcers are not uncommon. 97% of horses get them and it does not matter what kind of job they have or dont have. Maybe this will help.

[EquineAlberta]

Did anything else change once his teeth were done? Such as did you start taking more contact, expecting more of him and such? Any change in tack, turn out, feed? How is he if you go back to lunging/long lining?

I have heard of horses getting TMJ type issues from having their teeth done too. Or maybe once his teeth were done he could grind his feed more, and now has too much energy from his feed?

I agree with giving him time off though. Start again from scratch/ground work after he gets a few months off.

karen2

[version1955]

Very interesting situation. Keep us in the loop, please. I'd be interested in how he is with other horses. I'd predict that he is low man on the totem pole, is he?

[Lopin]

Ah, ulcers never crossed my mind! I'll see what I can get the owner to do. Johnny, what did your vet do for the ulcers and did your horses attitude change?

Nothing else has changed since his teeth were done. Same bit, same bridle, same saddle. The saddle fits and he is bit/lined in the same bit/bridle.

I've cut his grain way back, and there's no change, he's still extremely nervous under saddle.

I haven't started asking anymore, if anything, I've been asking less, thinking I *was* asking too much.

He's good to lunge, line and bit.

He is the lowest man on the totem pole. How'd you know?

[wundahoss]

I don't think turning him out for a couple of months is going to have any effect on this problem, as he won't forget what he's learned now. I think turning horses out on a bad note only delays facing the issues.

Firstly I'd be wanting to rule out any pain issues. At that age, his feet haven't finished growing & shoes can cause more problems than on an adult - I'd definitely get rid of these, especially as you're obviously not at the stage of working him hard & therefore 'needing' them anyway. Check out the saddle fit, as he could have had a growth spurt in the last couple of months that has made it uncomfortable.

Trainingwise, remember he's a youngster with a very short attention span. Also keep in mind that stresses, no matter how small, if allowed to accumulate are like the straw on a camel's back - eventually it all becomes too much. So work in very short, easy sessions, lots of approach & retreat, to *gradually* desensitise him.

For eg. if he's truely good & happy about you getting on him & riding for say 5 minutes, then he starts to get tense, get on & ride him for 3 minutes, reinforcing him by ending the session *before* he gets upset. ("Oh, that was OK, wasn't bad after all") With successful repetition, he'll relax more & you can gradually go for longer. If you find you go too far & he gets reactive, do all you can to reduce any pressure he's feeling, but ride him through it & only get off when he's still - preferrably calm, but this might not be possible for now.

Also lots of positive reinforcement(rewards, treats, scratchies... Good Stuff) will help him to associate you & your 'games' with nice feelings. Make sure whatever you do with him is Good & Fun, so he developes a good 'work ethic'.

[JoAnne]

if he's that violent, I'd have a vet x ray him. I read about horses violently bolting etc that had a brain tumor and that was the reason. hope it's not the case wieth this horse but the behaviour is so extreme I'd want to check out a physical problem first.

[allison]

From my experience, this is what I do when I'm showing or just riding a young horse for the first time in an unfamaliar arena. They can get a little nervous, jumpy, lack of attention etc. Instead of just aiming for rail work, once you mount do smaller circles off the rail in the center. Slowly work to a larger circle. Circling helps keep more focus on you, and it's not as scary as the whole arena. The horse won't be worrying about everything else going on since you're in the center. Plus it's much easier to control them in a circle.

[beth55051]

If it wasn't winter and you didn't live up in the frozen tundra like I do I would suggest taking a break from riding but instead pony him off of a calm, rock solid older horse. I know he's a show horse but maybe if he can get out and watch/learn from a calm old pro that life really isn't so scary he might begin to relax. Sometimes having a trusted buddy right next to them that they can lean on really helps.
That's what I'll be doing with my two year old this winter. He'll get ponied all over the place, up and down trails tied to good old Reno. Saddled and unsaddled, bit and no bit. Whatever the mood for that day. He'll get used to all kinds of unexpected things around him. That way when I do start riding him in a controled environment it will be nothing to him. He's a nervous type, nothing like what you're describing but the kind that isn't thinking if he isn't snorting. He's also one who never stands still. His head may stay in the same place but his feet are constantly moving around him.

Besides ponying have you tried riding him with another bombproof unflappable horse? Letting him follow along right next to or right behind him? Someone he can bump into and bounce off of when he gets scared?

It sounds like he also needs to learn how to spook in place, lots of sacking out and desensitizing.

[Lopin]

Wundahoss, well, we're certianly not getting anywhere at the moment. I truly believe in keeping horses happy, so they look forward to their "job." That's why this is so frustrating. I always end my training sessions on a good note, whether that takes 15 minutes, 20-30 minutes or even a hour +!

The thing is, he starts to get tense almost as soon as he gets going (just at the walk), so it's so hard to find a good spot to stop at, when we really haven't even started.

He'll stand still and calm down and that's usually when we quit, but that makes me think he thinks that I'm letting him win? He was nervous - then he stopped (not working) and we quit. See what I mean? Sort of like, 'if I'm nervous and doing stupid stuff, I stop, then we quit.' He got what he wanted. Does that make sense?

I rode him last Saturday and I got him to walk twice around the indoor (he was semi-relaxed & stayed on the rail for the most part) while I just stayed very relaxed, legs off him, talking to him and scratching him on his neck, all on a loose rein. I thought, maybe I'm onto something...then *poof* there we are flying through the arena! Guess not! And NOTHING changed! My body postition, my breathing, my hands, legs, nothing, I never even moved.

Good idea JoAnne, I've heard of horses like that too.

Allison, I would love to do circles with him, but the moment I try to even take him off the rail, we're flying through the air again and then he doesn't want to go back TO the rail. He's terrified, I can't use legs, and we all know you need to use your legs to guide, turn and bend. I can't even do serpentines with him. When you try to turn him towards the center, he slams his butt into the rail, then just shakes.

I've broke out a lot of young horses, but I've never had any like this.

Beth, I wish it wasn't winter now!! Although we don't have any snow and it's in the 50s, but our outdoor is very big and I'd like to be in a smaller area with him right now.

Last week, I pulled out my lesson horse and rode him while I had someone else ride him. My lesson horse could care less about what anyone else does and not much gets him riled up. I would go first, then have them follow me, but as soon as I'd stop or pull to the center to watch them, he'd go back to his nervous stuff. I'd follow and he'd still be silly.

I don't know if he's truly "spooking"...nothing is there to scare him! He's not scared of anything while leading, lunging, grooming, etc, and you'd think he'd be more comfy with someone on his back? (You know, that way the boogie man can get the rider! )

We'll attempt to ride him tomorrow AM, should we try him again with the lesson horse?

He has to the end of the month...then I need to decide. Thing is, if I send him back and she sends him off to someone who is going to be hard on him, they'll fry his brain and he'll be ruined. (I have one of those in the field...work from a previous trainer we bought her from ).

[JoAnne]

If it were me I'd call owner and have him vet checked re odd chance there is something wrong with him, or even with his vision. maybe he can't see out of one eye. just cause it sounds so extreme.

If they refuse to have him vetted, maybe say the behaviour is so unusual you don't feel comfortable about continuing riding without a vet exam. If you really think his behaviour is so "out there" and not just normal high energy or nerves.

you said he was okay under long lines but not under saddle- any chance the saddle hurts him or does not fit? (try a diff saddle, gel pad, or if a rider there wants to try bareback with a neck strap/stirrup leather buckled around his neck to hang on to) ...to see if it is a saddle issue. (process of elimination to find the cure of this nutsiness)

if he vets out, and it is not a saddle issue, a suggestion...instead of turning him out, go back to long line or lunge him as he is good about that. after ground work, even tho it is pony ride-ish, have someone lead you around on him ( or you lead them around on him) and make a big fuss over him, then ride 3 minutes without a leader, say good boy etc and get off. Increase it a few minutes each day. ( and if he is good about being led with a rider, do it around the property/ mini trail rides, so he thinks having a rider on him is fun) plus mix that in with some days no riding just ground work. he may be very late to mature and this much this soon is too stressful for him. best of luck let us know!

[Quarters N Paints]

To Me it sounds like a HOLE in his ground work and learning to trust.

I have trained and re-trained some really messed up horse and some really terrified colts in my days, and you alwasy want an extremely good trust basis on the scared colts and the (had the hell beat out of them) older horses, off the track horse who are not given down time will be this way also.

Anyway, I would go back to the last level of ground work he was completely, and I mean completely consistently comfortable at, and start slowly from their, tons of Positive reinforcement, and build a trust where he truely believes you will not let anything get him, scared him ect.........
This colt needs to look to you for security at all times BEFORE he reacts.
Don't set him up to fail, colts lose confidence ( and it sound slike this colt has none to begin with) and become more nervous and jittery along the way. Ask him for things you know he can do well and successfully, "Tell him how brave and good he is doing at all times". Dont let you body language or even your thoughts telegraph, and amount of hesitation or doubt while working with this colt.

This is my 2 cents worth from what I am getting out of your posts and from my years of experience working with pasture colts and blown horses.
It is a slow process.
Take me suggestions for what they are worth to youand good luck, I hope for the best for this colt.

On a side note, is this colts owner fairly green to the horse world, if so she should have an older more stable horse to begin with and not a youngster.

Good Luck and keep us posted

[Kendra]

I'm just going to echo what's been said in the last few posts:

Go back to your ground work.
Quiet lunging session prior to your ride will take some of his edge off.
Tack him up and ask him to trot, talk to him a lot in a soothing voive "easy, good boy" encouraging him to relax. Watch for his head to drop and for him to lick his lips ~ this tells you he is accepting what you are asking. If he isn/t relaxing don't worry about riding him that day just keep working on his lunging.

If he only acts up on the rail then work him in the middle and take him to the rail to stand and rest. If he gets antsy go back an longe some more. Remember to keep your lunging slow and quiet.


When you see he is relaxing ask him to stop and lead him around the rail a few times and then let him stop and rest on the rail for a few minutes.
If he acts up go back and lunge some more.

Do this for a few days and then ride him while someone lunges him. Even if he is quiet don't push to get on the rail ~ you have to lay your foundation. Work towards keeping him quiet an relaxed.

Ride him on the lunge for a few days and when he seems very confident even bored with the routine then he is ready to move on to the next step.

Start by lunging him as you have been and then get on him and follow an older horse around the ring. When ever I start a new colt I have them follow another horse for the first 2-3 rides.
I don't have to pull or bump them much to get them to mimic the horse in front. I will have the other rider serpentine and circle and I will follow.
I gradually ease the colt away but I will let him go back to his buddy every once in awhile for courage until he doesn't need him anymore. I don't care how many rides it takes but it usually only takes a few.

I also sit on a young horse alot while other people ride their horses. I saddle up my 2 year old whenever I give my daughter a lesson and we just sit in the middle of the ring. At first he would fidget and want to follow but now he just stands and watches or catches a nap.

If he only acts up on the rail work him in the middle and take him to the rail to stand and rest. As soon as he get goofy on the rail return to the middle and work him in slow circles and then return to the rail and walk.

Try not to reward his acting up on the rail by getting off. Just go into the middle and make him work then return to the rail and let him walk. When he acts up try to keep him moving even if it's just in a small circle (he can't buck or bolt if you keep him circling) Trying to hold him back will just wind him up more.

Don't give up on this boy. Try longer, slower sessions. Start on the ground and repeat, repeat, repeat. You want him to be very secure in where he is before he goes onto the next step. Take one giant training step backwards whenever you hit a snag and reinforce the last stage.

Add ground poles and pylons/weave poles to divert his attention and make him think. Again start form the ground and work slowly.

You could also try free lunging him on the rail. Don't chase him just ask him to move out at a trot.

I would also start getting him use to my legs by applying a soft 'hug' when I ride. No heels just thigh to calf and apply a gentle steady touch. You will fing that this "hug" and dropping your weight down through your seat will actually relax him. My daughter has a 4 year old OTTB that can get a little goofy and I just keep reminding her to get her legs on him and drop her weight and he just comes back to her every time.

Good Luck ~ sounds like this fellow is very lucky to have you in his corner.

[JoAnne]

I imagine as a trainer, there is pressure to "produce", and maybe you promised this customer the horse would be rideable by XX date. Obviously, this horse can't handle that schedule, even if the others you trained could move up to riding after 3 months ground work. any saddle or medical issues having been cleared, I'd be honest with the owner, say because of horse's lack of confidence/sensitive nature, it is going to take a lot longer, and see what owner wants to do. maybe you can charge less for keeping the horse a longer time with shorter training sessions. just an idea! better to discuss with owner...probably in training there are some horse/trainer combos that are just not a good fit. if you personally know a trainer who might do well with this horse, you can recommend they come out and see it and suggest they take the horse on...that trainer can recommend you in the future. In my businss, appraisal, I have sometimes turned down clients who I just couldn't do the job for...truthfully, it was always a relief! think it through, no rush, stay safe is first priority.

[Quarters N Paints]

By so called "Training" a young horse by letting them follow an older mount, you are putting a band-aid on the fact the colt has no confidence and trust in them selves or their rider who they are supposed to be looking to for direction and re-assurance. Plus you are creating a very difficult to rectify problem in which the colt will go nicely if with another horse and follow well but seems to nkow nothing or fight with the rider when asked to ride alone or out of site of another horse, or take the lead on a trail ride.

Going back to ground work is not neccasarily lunging them constantly either, teaching the horse to work of verbal consistent ques while on the lead or in close contact to the horse will build the confidence of the horse in them selves and thier handler. Once the horse moves consistently and confidently with the handler on the gorund, then start under saddle, if the horse is nervous about walking off or seems hesitant but will walk off with a rider, have a person on the ground help the horse by walking a bit with them while the rider gives the ques to the colt and the head person( person on the ground) simply helps the colt with his focus of the ques from the rider. Once the colt is moving with confidence with the head person along side in walking along the long and short side of the arena as well as doing some large circles with the head person along for confidence then as the colt picks up his walking speed ( and he will as he gains confidence in his rider and his own ability) have the head person fade to the hip and stop, the colt may go quite a ways before he realizes he is doing this on his own or may go just a few steps beofre he stops, when he stops the rider should somply ask for the colt to walk a couple times quietly, if the colt seems un sure and doesn't walk off on his own, the head person simply will walk up and pet the colt and walk off with him again. This should be done in SHORT sessions and only moved along at the colts learning speed and ability. Thier attention span is short, much like a childs and they should only be moved forward in the lesson book according to their own individual learning speed.
You will be greatly rewarded for you time and patience. Our own young ones have been started this way for many many years and they always must do everything on their own BEFORE they can invite a friend (another horse and rider) to come and ride with them. Our youngsters end up being very confident in them selves and thier riders with this method.

When they stop ( or get stuck in park as we call it) they know they will be allowed to look at what is bothering them if anything and their rider will re-assure them they are fine, and they will walk on ( not at first in the training, they may need their head person to (pick them up as we call it).

Training and riding is all about building a working trusting relationship with the horse and rider. I personally like taking the extra time to build this relationship as there have been many times when I have had to trust my horse to get us out of a corner when team penning or another situation when riding. They have also had to relie on my and trust what I am asking of them in a few othe r situations when their natural instinct is just to flee any way they can, they have held that instinct in check while listening to their rider. It truely is a wonderful feeling to have this type of relationship.

Anyway,
Just my opinion based on many years of training and re-training
Good luck and I will hope for the best with both you and the horse in question.

[Kendra]

[quote="Quarters N Paints"]By so called "Training" a young horse by letting them follow an older mount, you are putting a band-aid on the fact the colt has no confidence and trust in them selves or their rider who they are supposed to be looking to for direction and re-assurance. Plus you are creating a very difficult to rectify problem in which the colt will go nicely if with another horse and follow well but seems to nkow nothing or fight with the rider when asked to ride alone or out of site of another horse, or take the lead on a trail ride.

[quote]


I just wanted to clarify that this is something I personally do for the first couple of rides so I'm not pulling and bumping on a young horse too much.

As mentioned I do ask the colt to step out on his own and will go back to his buddy only if he seems to be getting confused and needs a confidence builder. I am still cueing and guiding the colt from his back and I will circle away and ask him to stop. The benefit is that the horse will move off and follow easily rather than locking up and getting confused during those first few rides. I also like to get a horse out on the trails early in training and it's easier to do with a buddy.

I have never had an issue with a horse becoming dependant on the horse he follows for those first couple of rides. I'm sure I may come across one that does before I retire but so far I have been pretty lucky.

[Range]

I'm going against the grain here and saying, turn him out for a while. I had a two year old in training who turned goofy for no apparent reason. I turned him out and three months later he was a dream again.

[Danni L]

I would vet check him to rule out any serious physical problems,then turn him out for a while,to give him a mental and physical break.As was previosly said,start again with ground work.I worked on a nervous paint gelding(well broke) once and had to start with the basics.Lunging,trail riding,riding with just a rope halter and riding bare back helped him to be more relaxed.Try doing some parrelli with him ,I know that really made a huge difference with this gelding.Take a very laid back approach,and try different exersises.Maybe all he needs is a little time to grow up and a fresh perspective.

[Quarters N Paints]

Kendra < As I said at the bottom of my post ( both of them) this is just my opinion based on many years of training and re-training.

We don't pull and bump on our young ones either, they know the VERBAL QUES and are helped by the person on the ground when they get stuck in park, Lock up and don't move. Our young ones are also started bareback with a halter and lead rope and thier first 2 or 3 dozen rides are with that tack only.

If the other works for you wonderful.

Range< you are right sometimes they need a break and turn out for a few months is a wonderful thing as it lets them relax and thin about things, they come back fresh and a bit more mature mentally.

I also know when you train for the public you are on a time line, so maybe turn out at the owners place with a few ground excercises for them to do together, simple ones that will just reinforce the verbal communication and help desensetise. Then a few months down the road re-fresh the basics and see where you are with him.

I am assuming you have ruled our pain issues already.

Best of luck, with time and patience I think you will be alright with this colt

Again this is just my personal opinion based on the information presented here.