Shopping for a Trainer (and Boarding at trainer)

[Lady_MCSE]

Well, I had a really long day, and some success . . . for months, I have wanted to move Jacques to a different boarding place. Where he is now, it's not terrible, no threats to his health other than possibly insufficient water sources in winter, but basically I wasn't in a rush to move him.

I had been shopping for pasture board since a) it's cheaper, b) I am not into showing or anything fancy, and c) horses are supposed to be happier that way (supposedly).

Then about three weeks ago, I finally came to the conclusion that I also have GOT to get him into training. He's wonderful when it comes to groundwork, but he's a real brat when it comes to me trying to be in the saddle, and I've had a hard time staying on him.

So today I checked out four places. I end up driving 230 miles today, and kept my eyes peeled for any other places I saw on my travels, got a couple more phone numbers along the way.

#1 - Sounded great over the phone, and I was really eager to see it. The horses are out 24/7 on plenty of pasture, in fact they had so much grass it needed mowing. They had stalls available (including an oversized one for my big monster) for emergencies and just general use. They had about six different kinds of feed. There were several other Parelli\Natural horsemanship boarders there, which is stuff I'm interested in. And they said I could work out a deal where someone there would ride my boy on a regular basis. Problems though . . . no arenas, not sure there would be space for my trailer, no washrack. I don't see myself being able to ride at all in winter time if there is no indoor arena.

#2 - Again sounded great. It was a longer drive away than I wanted, but said most of their boarders are trail riding people, and that's what I want to do. I actually liked the place more than I thought I would. They had pasture board, but the pastures for that were kind of small. The runout pastures for stall boards were a lot bigger and got me to thinking I might even do a stall with them. (Still significantly less money than I'm paying now.) They had indoor and outdoor arenas. They said they would arrange for some training\riding time. The biggest downsides were the long distance from home, and the washrack was not something I could fit a clydesdale into.

#3 - Just didn't fit my needs . . . no pasture board, just stalls. Small stall size, and the more I blabbered on about my boy, the less the owner seemed interested in having him. I think he's a sweet boy, but I tried to explain the riding problems I been having, and I just don't think it was a place were we would fit in.

#4 - And why I put this in "Training." I found this one looking at online ads for trainers. The trainer has leased 10 stalls in a 60-stall barn that's about half full. The place is enormous, plenty of grass! The stalls are 14x14 (huge compared to his current 10x10!). He would get a real trainer who is used to breaking babies, not afraid to deal with bucking if it happens, and she would ride him five times a week. I would get one riding lesson per week included in the price. For all this, the price is not a lot more than I've been paying. (This place is nearly 2 hours away, which accounts for the lower price.) They have indoor and outdoor arenas, and best of all, a REAL WASHRACK! The washrack is so important to me because I have to keep his feathers very clean - gets scratches easily. The washrack has hot\cold running water, and is the biggest one I've seen yet, will easily accommodate an upset clydesdale.

So at this point, I'm strongly inclined to send him to place #4 for at least three months and see how well it works out. Being so far away, I will get to see him less often, but he will be getting more daily attention from his caregivers than he has been getting where he has been. (One trainer caring for six horses compared to one owner handling 40 where he has been.) I watched her do a training session with a 2 year old and a 5 year old. She doesn't do Parelli\Natural horsemanship stuff, but she was really light-handed and I didn't see anything that I wouldn't want done to my horse. I'm still new enough to this that I don't really know what to be looking for.

I have heard horror stories about "sending out for training" and the horse coming back underweight, afraid, more skittish, etc. I'm reasonably confident that won't be a concern. But I still plan to do surprise visits once he's there.

Anything you can recommend that I really need to look out for or ask? I think I have all the questions about the boarding facility down. But I'm looking for advice on what I should be asking about the trainer herself. I was planning to ask for one reference, but I felt like seeing the horses she had was more of a reference than anything a human could tell me. Your thoughts? Suggestions?

[czykittin]

I take in a couple horses for training myself and i find that there are a lot of things that are important to them.
1. The accomodations. Most of the horses I have have already been to a different trainer. They come back skinny and bit up by the other horses. Also the feed-make sure they good quality hay and water AT ALL TIMES.
2. One thing I can suggest as a trainer is make sure they require shots and wormer utd. I do and a horse about 2 miles away died from rabies. You don't know how glad I am and the owners are of this. If they don't have shots, I give them to the horses.
3. Another thing I will suggest out of personal experience is how bendable are they with training. My roomie grew up training paints-one bloodline, one breed, one discipline. She doesn't change for other breeds. A arabian is COMPLETELY different than most QH or Paints and should be trained accordingly. I hadn't much experience with them and took in one and had to bend quite a bit-she wouldn't. Needless to say, he kicked her HARD-it couldve been bad. He turned out to be a real great boy for me. This is pretty important as you have a quite different horse. I don't think most trainers take in very many clydes.
5. Your training. Very important. She can ride the horse all she wants and train it all she wants, but if he goes home and gets ridden the same way, then all that work goes down the drain. I throw a fit when owners don't come out to ride ever. I'm just like "*&^^&^#@#! that horse is gonna be nowhere!" Yes, they will learn new principles, but I would say 100% of the problems with horses stem from an owner that either worked them too hard or didn't establish respect. A horse is a very large animal, we cannot afford to treat them as pets or let them be the boss. A horse is not meant to be petted and given treats all day. It is perfectly fine to spoil your horse as long as he knows whos boss.
I really don't think you need references if you've watched her work with the horses. The horses will tell you more than anyone else will. If the horses don't like her or don't respond to her then don't bring him there.
What do you want to do with him? Sounds like you want a trail horse. Does she trail ride them lots? I pretty much hit the trails most every day after they have 2 or 3 weeks on them to get them used to that stuff. In my opinion, you can do two of the best things with a horse: work cattle and trail ride LOTS. If you bring a green horse on a trail ride and can handle them, chances are that you will get accomplished in one day what you can do in a week or month in the arena.
Something I personally am very big on is a soft mouth. All of the horses I start are very responsive because I want them that way. Its a great foundation for everything else. After that, we work on bending and collecting and stuff like that. You don't want a horse out on the trail or road that doesn't follow his head with his hind end.
Honesty is important to me also. If I think you horse is an absolute nightmare, I will tell you. I'll say "hey, your mare steps on my foot, walks past me while leading, and pushes me over while grooming, but we will work with that." Training starts at the ground. I don't get on them until we have established respect and control from the ground. If there are bad ground manners, the saddle manners won't be any better. That spells disaster. Needless to say, I am still in business and get bucked off VERY rarely Yup, talked to quite a few hobby trainers that are now out of business because they get trampled by a horse. Well, they shouldn't have rode that day then huh? They should have worked more on the ground first.
This is long and I hope this helps. Its just my opinions and experience from both training and looking for a trainer. In my opinion, I am a good trainer and churn out respectful, knowledgeable, and gentle horses. People really like the work I do and these are the things that I believe make these good horses.

Good luck and hope you found the right trainer.

[TxHorseMom]

I agree quite a bit with ck. One of the things TxCowGrl82 INSISTS on is lessons with the owner after the horse is trained. (during the training is ok too, but they have to have lessons with the horse after) The reason is this. She can train your horse until it does everything perfect for her. BUT if it doesn't respond to you (for whatever the reason) then your money has been wasted. This way, everyones happy.

She is also correct about a trainer being able to adapt to different types of horses. IMHO no "one certain way" ever works for every horse. I know that we take several different methods and try to use what works. Take a little from Monty Roberts, John Lyons, Clinton Anderson, Parelli, etc. They are all similar, but different.

Good luck on your search and keep us posted.

[Lady_MCSE]

No worries about long posts . . . I tend to think I'm the queen of long posts.

This is good information, thank you.


Accommodations - all the horses I saw there were in excellent condition. She had the best hay of any I've seen including where he is now. She feeds safechoice, which is what I have been wanting to feed him. He will get all-day turnout.

Shots & Wormer - True, she didn't mention them already, but in a 60-stall barn, I don't think there's any way she could NOT be concerned about it. I had mine done and have the paperwork to show her.


Breeds & Styles - She was working with a quarter horse, a sport horse (half draft), an appendix, a mustang, and a thoroughbred. And when I said my guy was a clydesdale, she acted like he was no different than any other horse. Maybe that was ignorance of drafts, but in my limited time with him, I would say he is just another horse, just bigger. She also seems to be capable of doing different disciplines.

My Lessons - ABSOLUTELY! Couldn't agree more! That's one of the reasons I think I'm going to like this particular arrangement. The other places didn't mention lessons for me, but this last lady did. She said that one lesson a week is mine to take or not, but that she strongly recommends taking it. Honestly, I have a strong suspicion that Jacques will do a lot better when my own nerves are settled when I get up there. I'm well aware that my confidence is about a 2 and my nervousness about an 8 when I'm on him (10point scales).

Trails - unfortunately, this training place does not have "trails." They have a lot of property, including a racetrack for the thoroughbreds, but no woodsy all-terrain type of trails. I will ask her to do some outdoor riding at least, but I have heard from others what you say, that riding with other horses out on trail is the best kind of training they can get. I guess I'm looking at it as I will take him to her and see how we all "click," and that once I am more confident in the saddle with him I could always move him to place #2 that I liked pretty well and had miles of trails access.

I also belong to a trail riding organization that has trail rides nearly every week, always walk rides. So I have plenty of opportunity to get him out with well seasoned horses - once I feel more confident.

[Lady_MCSE]

WOO HOOO!!!

I had another lady come out to the barn where he is boarded now. She is more into the natural horsemanship stuff. . . we worked together about an hour and a half, and she rode him quite a bit. I got up on him later, and he was fine, with her walking alongside me to calm my nerves.

Basically he was a total angel. She told me he is pushy with me and I need to work on getting his respect - hmm, and I thought I was pretty good with that. So I will listen and see what I can do to improve.

But at least I feel a whole lot better knowing I don't have a bucking maniac on my hands.

[czykittin]

From talking to you, it is YOU that needs training, not the horse. You just might be wasting your money getting him trained-won't hurt, but it won't be the most effective for your "team". I had a lady like that, she was bucked off a horse and had a bad accident and wanted me to ride her mare for her. I really caught her off guard when I asked her why she thinks she needs a trainer. She was like, "whoa. I dont know. I guess. Um, I want her to be safe?". No. She needed lots of lessons. She had the desire to ride but no confidence to. She was scared to death. I ended up telling her that her horse was fine and what would be best is to sell it and buy a 25 year old granny horse as a confidence booster. I coulda taken her in for the money, but I wasn't going to do that. Three months is a long time to bring a horse to a trainer. The only reasons you should bring a horse to a trainer is if they are a)not broke or not had much time on them b)bad habits that you cannot control c) you are training for a certain discipline. I think you need lots of lessons on different horses to learn how to handle different horses with different habits in different sitautions. You might want to get an instructor to teach you how to demand respect and handle your own boy. Like I said in my last post, training the horse and not training the rider isn't going to go anywhere. Once a week for three months is going to put your horse way ahead of you. I don't know the situation very well, but this is just what I see.

[Will Atkinson]

Dear LM,

I just finished with another person's question and I saw yours....just had to answer it.

It sounds like you are in a quandry as are a lot of people...too much horse and too little time. You talk about getting just the right place for him with just the right attention, right turnout space, right washrack to keep his feathers clean and all the choices you are considering are at the expense of your relationship with him. You sound like you are desperate to get him into a good training program so that he could do really nice things with you. It sounds like you are not a very good rider in that you don't seem to possess the kind of balance, softness of hands and legs that allow you to be on his back and not make him fizzy about your balance.

Hey, did you ever consider asking him if he would send you to training school to develop all the qualities of someone he would enjoy having on his back? Put yourself in his position. If you were part of a team effort and wanted to go to the olympics, would the team tolerate one or two of the team to slack while the rest of them worked like crazy to get better? Nope. You have to understand as much as the horse in order to make a complete team effort. If you put a novice insecure rider on the back of any well trained horse, all that training goes out the window and they forget that wonderful training quickly.

You mention Parelli. You would be oh so much further along in your horsemanship and his training if you got hooked up with that system. I cannot recommend it enough because I have used a lot of others in depth and none work on the person and horse equally. If you send your horse out for training, my experience shows that the trainer gets great response because they know how to ask for it, but when you ask for it just a little wrong, the horse is confused. The Parelli system makes you the trainer. The neat part of all this is that the system works for all horse breeds I know of. I have a Shire draft, two Arabians, two mules, two quarter horses, a Walker, and a Rocky mountain. They all learn equally well with this system.

This system will get you so deep into your horse that you won't realize it until you are thinking alike. It won't happen if you send him out. Trail riding is boring after a while, and Parelli has neat games that you can play with the horse, just like going for a walk, or throwing a frisbie for a dog, or playing tag. Way more than just saddling up and walking along. The door of communication you now enjoy sounds like more of a keyhole which could be so much more.

Look around for some closer more convenient rough board where you will be the main person that he looks to for a relationship....if you don't, then you will always be riding a "stable" horse that you own. How long would you stay married to someone that you were able to see only about as often as your horse? Think about it. You both need each other more if you are ever going to develop a real relationship.

Good luck and consider the Parelli stuff. Parelli.com It works way better than most people think....except those that use it! It will also help your confidence around not only your horse but horses in general.

Best Wishes....

Will

[Will Atkinson]

Listen to the wisdom of CZYKITTIN. There ain't any better advice out there. She is dead on in every item and sees it the same way as I do. The problem with this honesty is that there isn't enough of it around and when it surfaces most people don't believe it.

Will

[eieio]

I agree that lessons are in order for the rider and that has been the plan all along. From her previous posts, Lady MSCE has shown a complete interest in lessons and plans to pursue that. Maybe I have a little bit more background on Jacques from a longer time reading of Jacques progress. Who knows, but...

Jacques needs a good long tune up from an experienced rider. Rider issue or no, a horse that bucks, needs training, period. Since women under the age of 16 and over the age of thirty are the majority of riders in this country, fear is the greatest problem most riders have with their horses.

Since, in my mind, his training prior to Lady's ownership is in question. I think a real assessment of his abilities by a professional is warranted. I also think that he needs some finishing. By nature Clydes are lovely creatures, calm and kind. Infinitely patient. They tend to have more verve than other draft breeds, but her decision to purchase him, was a sound judgement. Once both have been properly schooled I am sure that this will be a wonderful pairing.

It is easy to say that she is "overmounted". Problem is that all riders are overmounted at one time or another. If this were not the case then, we would not need trainers would we?

I often invite pairs such as this into my barn for "marriage counseling". I work the horse, identify short comings and then try to fix them to the best of my abilities. I do the same for the rider, sometimes on their horse, sometimes on mine. I improve his training and for a fearful or new rider, desensatize the horse to their level. I challenge the rider, teach them to ride more securely and then help them set goals to move forward.

Sometimes a pairing is not good and needs to be dissolved. I will also assist in the separation as well as the procurement of a new companion. The case between Lady and Jacques, does not fall under the separation category. This pairing just requires a little education on both sides to create a happy union.

Congrats Lady on your recent success with the new trainer! Keep up the good work and you should be on the trail soon enough!

[Orchid]

Originally Posted by eieio

I agree that lessons are in order for the rider and that has been the plan all along. From her previous posts, Lady MSCE has shown a complete interest in lessons and plans to pursue that. Maybe I have a little bit more background on Jacques from a longer time reading of Jacques progress. Who knows, but...

Jacques needs a good long tune up from an experienced rider. Rider issue or no, a horse that bucks, needs training, period. Since women under the age of 16 and over the age of thirty are the majority of riders in this country, fear is the greatest problem most riders have with their horses.

Since, in my mind, his training prior to Lady's ownership is in question. I think a real assessment of his abilities by a professional is warranted. I also think that he needs some finishing. By nature Clydes are lovely creatures, calm and kind. Infinitely patient. They tend to have more verve than other draft breeds, but her decision to purchase him, was a sound judgement. Once both have been properly schooled I am sure that this will be a wonderful pairing.

It is easy to say that she is "overmounted". Problem is that all riders are overmounted at one time or another. If this were not the case then, we would not need trainers would we?

I often invite pairs such as this into my barn for "marriage counseling". I work the horse, identify short comings and then try to fix them to the best of my abilities. I do the same for the rider, sometimes on their horse, sometimes on mine. I improve his training and for a fearful or new rider, desensatize the horse to their level. I challenge the rider, teach them to ride more securely and then help them set goals to move forward.

Sometimes a pairing is not good and needs to be dissolved. I will also assist in the separation as well as the procurement of a new companion. The case between Lady and Jacques, does not fall under the separation category. This pairing just requires a little education on both sides to create a happy union.

Congrats Lady on your recent success with the new trainer! Keep up the good work and you should be on the trail soon enough!

Very well said, eieio!

I look forward to hearing about your progress with Jacques, Lady MCSE!

[gbarmranch]

I agree with Eieio - excellent suggestions! I also think that the extra distance for three months would be fine since it should be a benefit your horse, and then, of course, that benefits you! Good luck - I don't recall seeing pictures of Jacques, but he sounds like a beautiful horse!!!

[Lady_MCSE]

Well, I've told myself to take a week in order to decide, and I think I'm still leaning toward sending him out.

To CK's point about sounding like I need lessons more than he needs training, I will say that that comment did get me to thinking about what I could have the trainer work on aside from just riding. The riding is what I need most, but eieio and others may have read my posts about trying get him into a trailer, and trying to give him a bath. In both cases, I now technically can accomplish each task with him, but they are still enough of an ordeal that it would be nice for him to get some regular practice with them too.

I think I'm going to make one last call to the trainer lady and confirm the fact that I will want her to do some outdoors riding even if it's not trails, and mention the trailer & bath as potential areas that need work - AFTER the riding is coming along nicer. As long as she confirms that she will do outdoor stuff (I can't remember actually asking her that one), then I'll go with her.

Here are a couple of pics . . . they are from last summer, but they are just so darned good (proud momma speaking) that I haven't got any better ones!

[gbarmranch]

He is a handsome boy - WOW! I really like his looks - can't wait to see you on him - I bet he moves beauitfully!!! Thanks for the pictures (he makes my big QHs look like ponys - and many of them are 15.1+ and 1200 lbs!!!)

[eieio]

Such a GORGEOUS beast, he is! A proud momma you should be, he is exquisite! You will accomplish these things Lady MCSE! I just know it!

[Seanachie]

Originally Posted by Lady_MCSE

Shots & Wormer - True, she didn't mention them already, but in a 60-stall barn, I don't think there's any way she could NOT be concerned about it. I had mine done and have the paperwork to show her.

OK, so you had the paperwork to show her. That means YOU are a conscientious owner. Now, how about everyone else that boards there? Find out what shots are the MINIMUM your horse has to have before you can even take him off the trailer at her place. You can be sure that those are the ONLY immunizations you can count on every horse having.

We took our paint mare riding at a local stable a couple of times . Six days lafter her last trip, our 5 week-old Clydesdale colt died from an unknown illness.

You can draw your own conclusions...........

[sheri7785]

Lady M,
Just thought I would share this. First gorgeous boy. I love draft horses. They are so pretty. I have done the "have the horse at the trainers and have a once a week lesson" a couple of times. Each time was very successful. The horse could get worked on and fixed and I was too. I kept in contact with the trainers so after I brought the horse home. As I came up to problems I would make a phone call saying "HELP!!!!! Here's the problem..." The trainer explained how to fix it and would even call back after my next ride to see if it got fixed or if she needed to come out and help. I loved it. I would still get references if it would make you feel a little bit better. Best of luck to you and Jacques.

[Lady_MCSE]

Hooray . . .

I had the natural horsemanship trainer back out to where Jacques is currently boarded. We had another very good session, and I rode for an entire hour (actually in the saddle for a complete hour). For once I was really able to relax in the saddle and I can honestly say that I was not nervous one bit by the end of the session.

We futzed around a bit with the saddle. For one thing she said maybe I had it too far back last session, so we placed it better. Then we tried several different stirrup lengths. And of all things, OOPs! I had bought some cashels knee-savers, and we think I had them on backwards. I'm going to look again at the insert that came with them, becuase I really thought I had them on right. But honestly they did feel a little bit better when we were done, so they couldn't have been right.

We did a lot of stop, go, stop, go, circles, steering, etc. All at a walk so far. She asked if I wanted to try trotting yet, but I declined. Not so much because I was truly "afraid," as much as I know that my muscles are way out of practice, and my butt would have been all over the place. I don't mind walking for a while longer.

And we worked a lot on my riding position. At first it felt like she was having me practically lean forward . . . but once we got those stirrups set better, it was like all of a sudden I felt like "I get it!" Much more comfy and much more balanced.

This feels like a lot of progress. But at this point I am still probably too nervous to consider getting on him all alone in a riding arena with no one else around. So I'm still waffling about whether to "send him out" to this other place.

You might ask, if I'm having progress with one person, why send him to someone else? One big difference is that he would get rides 5x a week at the other place. Another is, and I hate to say this, but $$ is a consideration. Neither option is cheap, but sending him out will come out significantly cheaper per month than having this trainer come in. It's still pretty obvioius that even though we have had two good sessions, he still needs "miles, miles, miles!" as this current trainer said to me a couple of times . ..

Decisions, decisions, decisions . . .

At least I'm in seventh heaven having had a very good day. And it also made me feel a lot better to hear her say that she thinks that Jacques and I will make a good pair once we figure a few things out. Said she thought he was a good fit for me. I hope she wasn't just saying that.

[Lady_MCSE]

Just went back and read through this thread again . . .

Will - Thanks for your input. I am actually a huge fan of the Natural Horsemanship techniques. I have the Parelli "Level 1" kit and have read "Natural Horsemanship through Feel." Have you ever seen a Clydesdale attempt to jump a 6-foot fence?

When I bought him nine months ago, his owner told me that she had never successfully given him a bath in two years, and that he hated spray bottles. Couldn't tolerate clippers either. Might be fussy or panicky on trailer loading. (Um, did I mention I'm a first-time horse owner? That's like all the standard things you want a horse to do right there! ) But I had been working with a lady who did natural horsemanship, and I was very confident I would have some success with all of these things, so crazy me who knew better took the plunge anyway.

About eight weeks after I had him, I trailered him to a "clinic" that I had been told would be NH. It wasn't, it was a cowboy. But anyway, the cowboy worked Jacques in a round pen for maybe five minutes as the crowd watched. He was saying how wonderful Jacques was, and what exactly did we need to work on? Well, I had placed a spray bottle (standard issue fly spray type) just outside the round pen wall but out of Jacques' site. Mr. Cowboy went for the spray bottle. He got dragged across the round pen, and Jacques tried to jump the pen wall. I mean literally launched himself four feet off the ground, chest hitting the top of fence and falling back down. Quite the athletic maneuver for such a big guy.

Now in nine months we are very bonded using the Parelli techniques. I will let him dance for just a few steps, but as soon as the fly spray or water starts, he stands still. I don't use cross ties or tying at all with either, and have even done both without holding the lead rope. I can use a clipper anywhere I need to, including on his feathers. Trailer loading we still need work on. Sometimes he's OK, sometimes he's not so good.

So we have made a lot of progress. It's this riding thing that we both need practice on. I was actually a pretty good rider before I bought him, but it's now been a solid year since I've ridden on a regular basis, so I'm out of practice. I will always be open to taking lessons and learning new things.

When I do send him out, I will still make sure to see him as often as I can manage, because I do not want to lose the bonding or progress we have made by any means.



eieio - "Rider issue or no, a horse that bucks, needs training, period." Well said, thank you! Reminder to anyone reading this thread, both times he bucked, we weren't really doing anything unusual, I was just attempting to WAL K around an indoor arena. Once was triggered by him clonking into the mounting block, and the other didn't seem to have any specific trigger. Had the vet out for an exam, had the saddle looked at, etc. Unfortunately he now knows how to get rid of me, and that's not a good thing.

Seanachie - Thanks again for the worrming\shots reminder. Again, sorry about your li'l baby.

Sheri - This trainer has said that if I continued to board him there (not likely, unless I fall in love with the place), she will gladly do tuneups for free in the future. She also travels to do training. The diff. in travel beween her barn and mine is only about an hour and 10 minutes, so she'd probably not have a problem with that.

[czykittin]

Well, if you don't find a trainer Ill be happy to take that beastly horse off of your hands In fact, I don't think there are any good trainers out there, so you might as well just give him to me haha. How is it going lately?