Working on the WHOA!

LiquidStarlight · 12-02-2005, 02:27 PM

Yesterday I took Sonny on our first real trail ride for about an hour. He was great, we just went down dirt roads. The I turned him around to go back to the house, and he turned into a demon horse! He trotted for 10 minutes straight, very FAST trotting. He just wanted to go, go go! Once a big truck and 2 cars were going by, so I pulled Sonny off to the side of the road. Well, he took the liberty of turning himself around, and trying to get back on the road while the vehicles were going by! I tried to stop him, but he just kept pushing on ahead, and we came within 5 feet of the car that zoomed by. A second time he could have seriously injured both of us, is when I was crossing a major road to get back to my street. There were cars going by so I told him to stop, and he kept pushing on ahead. The darn horse almost ran me into the middle of a busy road as cars were going by! And he almost backed into a ditch when I was trying to make him stand.
I've tried different words; whoa, stop, quit, red light!

And nothing is working. He has almost gotten me killed twice because of it. I was thinking maybe he needs a different bit? He's riding in a stainless steel loose cheek training bit, with a copper mouth (that is what his previous owner was using). Especially now that he is actually getting fed, he has tons more energy, but he needs to stop! Any suggestions on how to retrain him to stop, or what kind of bit he should use?
Here's a bit picture:

Skippy! · 12-02-2005, 02:36 PM

Sorry if i sound dense, but is that the bit you are currently using? Are you using it as a snaffle, or a curb bit?

If your using it as a snaffle, use it as a curb instead. This could take some time to get used to (especially if your horse is dependant on you pulling the reins to tell him which way to go.) Skippy! was like that too.. only he kept bolting off, and he ignored the snaffle. We gave him a tom thumb, and viola! Bliss! He hasnt done it since. The first time he tried with the new bit, he got a rude awakening!!

Also remember to use your seat, sit back when you cue.. it always helps get the message across ^_^

LiquidStarlight · 12-02-2005, 02:44 PM

Sorry, yes that is the picture of the bit I am using

. I'm using it as a curb, and he still ignores it and doesn't listen to my commands like he should. The only command he does listen to, is turning around to go back home

because he is barn sour. I could give the Tom Thumb a try, I didn't want to go with a bit too harsh, or a bit that isn't harsh enough. That's why I asked everyone here, with everyone's great knowledge

**Orchid** · 12-02-2005, 03:32 PM

Have you ever tried the one rein stop with him?

IMO a different bit is not going to solve your problem - this is a training issue.

Skippy! · 12-02-2005, 04:01 PM

And, that bit is very similar to a tom thumb, if anything, maybe it has a wee bit less effectivity with the curb (maybe.. im not entirely sure) just because the shanks appear to be those of a grazing bit, so since they are already curved, when you go to pull, you dont get as much tightness from the chain. Arg! this is hard for me to write out! Anyways, that bit is very, very similar to a tom thumb, so i dont think getting a tom thumb would make too much of a difference. (again, maybe.. im not sure, every horse is different!)

Is the chain fitting properly? Can you fit two fingers beneith it snugly? If its loose, then you have no woah!! lol!

I agree that it does sound like a training issue, i know how it can be "tearing" a horse away from his breakfast

they will do anything to get back. My horses always creep out and a slow, slow walk, but when it comes time to go home, i have to hold them back. I never knew Skippy!'s extended walk could cover such ground!!

Good luck, and keep us posted!

Ahrodie227 · 12-02-2005, 04:02 PM

This is a good thread for me! What is a one rein stop?

PaintedWonders · 12-02-2005, 04:18 PM

Could he be saddle sore? A friend of mines horse acted like that, he would run through the bit and at times even bunny hop. It turned out he was very saddle sore and just couldn't wait to get home and get the saddle off! - Another thought is his teeth.. does he still have his wolf teeth? Or maybe need a float? - Just a few thoughts...

Skippy! · 12-02-2005, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahrodie227

This is a good thread for me! What is a one rein stop?

My definition of a one rein stop, is when i shorten up one of the reins, then PULL. Dont stop pulling until the horses' head is completely bent (when i did it, my horses nose almost touched my knee) This can be used to stop a horse from tearing off at a dead run, it throws them off balance. Just be careful not to do it too frequently, because there is a good chance it would throw the horse over on its side. This is sort of like.. the last desperate measure you should use. The horse will -definately- listen

But just think, a horse cant run away if its head is curled in! =)

Thats what i call a one rein stop though =)

*edited for clarity.. is a goofy girl*

carlagsd · 12-02-2005, 05:00 PM

I suggest teaching the one rein stop, too. It saved me from being run off with one time. I was REALLY glad I had taken the time to teach my gelding at home in the arena and in our fields before I took him on the road. He spotted some "scary cows" whose pasture came right up to the road. We crested a hill when he first saw them. He stopped suddenly, then after studying them for a minute decided to bolt for home. I reacted quick enough to keep him from taking but one or two steps and immediately put him into the one rein stop. We turned in circles for a while, almost went into the ditch, almost smashed a mailbox and came pretty close to falling into a stream. But thankfully after spinning in circles with no cues from me other than the one rein cue, he remembered, "oh, this means stop" and he did. I used Clinton Andersons method and I'm training my old, stiff mare to do it too. It saved me from having a runaway and I plan to teach it to every horse I ride from now on. I spent a month teaching it at home before we went out on the road. It teaches them to flex to either side when they feel pressure on the bit and supposedly prevents them from taking the bit and running with it. It worked for me!

**Range** · 12-02-2005, 06:42 PM

I don't think a different bit is going to help, either. You're going to end up going to a harsher bit, he'll learn to avoid it, you'll go to yet another harsh bit...see what I mean?

I would try going back to the round pen or the lunge line and work on the voice command "whoa". If the horse doesn't stop immediately when you ask from any gait, make him work at a good trot for twice around, then ask again, no response, trots 4 times around. The less he listens, the more work he does.

The one rein stop is good, but I would try it gradually so you don't overbalance and fall. It works with the donkey even without a bit. You have to do it with a direct rein. Bring one hand back towards your hip and encourage a circle, smaller and smaller until you get the stop. I would suggest doing it before you're in the middle of the road, though!

These are just things that I have done with my horses, so only my opinion.

leadmare · 12-02-2005, 07:13 PM

Like Range said, this is a training issue. In my book, a horse should "Whoa" (Stop any and all motion) no matter what he is or isn't wearing on his head or in his mouth.

I, like Range suggested, go back to the ground work. If it isn't perfected on the ground, I don't get in the saddle.

Anytime I ask for the "whoa", I ask for 2 or three steps backwards. This sets the horse up to think "Whoa" means "Back". Never say "Whoa" unless you are asking for a complete "Shut down" on any horse that has been under me. To change gait to a slower gait, I use easy, slow or the gait (Trot, jog...) I am looking for. If I don't get the stop I want when I ask for the "Whoa", I'll back them to kingdom come if I have to, to set it in their head.

I will use the one rein stop, back two steps, if they don't get it. But I will go back to the ground work, if I have to use one rein more than 2-3 times.

Good luck and be safe

joustinggirl · 12-02-2005, 07:45 PM

I agree with Range and Leadmare. Teach the whoa on the ground. A harsher bit will only lead to more pulling. The goal is to teach them to stop, not make them stop. I find it odd how many people gape at me when my horses actually stop when I just say whoa. It has sold a few for me too. When lunging, say whoa and if they don't, pull on the line and make them stop and face you. Then start them again. You will be amazed how quick they pick up on it.
I also teach the one rein stop. If it is part of your training protocol and your horse knows what it means they will not fall over or lost balance, they will stop.

2manyfurbabies · 12-02-2005, 08:15 PM

Here's another vote for a training issue, not a bit issue. My horses use a d-ring snaffle with dropped noseband. The noseband really helped give me power brakes and steering!

The one rein stop, or doubling, is a great method to halt your horse, or get him to slow down/relax. If he consistently breaks gait, double him around using the inside rein low and towards your knee. Keep him there till he drops into the slower gait (or stop)you want, then release him straight (his reward). Every time he speeds up, double him. To gain confidence, practise this at all gaits.

Teach a good balanced stop. Voice command whoa, give the horse 3 steps while increasing contact on the bit. After 3 warning checks, use a back and forth sawing action to get his attention and let him know you mean business. Then back him 1-2 steps. In very short order, you'll have a nice whoa on the haunches.

LiquidStarlight · 12-03-2005, 09:35 AM

I found out yesterday that the owner had slipped in 2 bridles to his tack bag when she brought him over 4 weeks ago. I've been using one of the bridles that she gave me with the bit I pictured, but I found another one with a Tom Thumb on it. I called the previous owner and asked her about it. The bridle I was using was an English one, the girl had it and decided she didn't need it so slipped it into my bag. And that was the only one I had seen for awhile. Then I discovered a western Circle Y headstall with a Tom Thumb, and a curb chain on it. She said that is the bridle she used on him. When I talked to the girl on the day she brought him over, she said she put his bridle (not bridles) in the bag. So I'm going to switch back to the bridle he is used to today, and just teach him on stopping before I do anymore trail riding. He is supposedly a well-trained horse, so maybe I just have to fool around with it for a while, and see if I wasn't asking him right. Also, I'm plannng on doing groundwork with him today also. Thankyou everyone for posting all your suggestions, it really helped me out alot!

12-02-2005, 02:27 PM
LiquidStarlight Yearling Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 865	Working on the WHOA! Yesterday I took Sonny on our first real trail ride for about an hour. He was great, we just went down dirt roads. The I turned him around to go back to the house, and he turned into a demon horse! He trotted for 10 minutes straight, very FAST trotting. He just wanted to go, go go! Once a big truck and 2 cars were going by, so I pulled Sonny off to the side of the road. Well, he took the liberty of turning himself around, and trying to get back on the road while the vehicles were going by! I tried to stop him, but he just kept pushing on ahead, and we came within 5 feet of the car that zoomed by. A second time he could have seriously injured both of us, is when I was crossing a major road to get back to my street. There were cars going by so I told him to stop, and he kept pushing on ahead. The darn horse almost ran me into the middle of a busy road as cars were going by! And he almost backed into a ditch when I was trying to make him stand. I've tried different words; whoa, stop, quit, red light! And nothing is working. He has almost gotten me killed twice because of it. I was thinking maybe he needs a different bit? He's riding in a stainless steel loose cheek training bit, with a copper mouth (that is what his previous owner was using). Especially now that he is actually getting fed, he has tons more energy, but he needs to stop! Any suggestions on how to retrain him to stop, or what kind of bit he should use? Here's a bit picture: __________________ There are times when you can trust a horse, times when you can't, and times when you have to.

12-02-2005, 02:36 PM
Skippy! Halter broke Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Auburn, AL Posts: 190	Sorry if i sound dense, but is that the bit you are currently using? Are you using it as a snaffle, or a curb bit? If your using it as a snaffle, use it as a curb instead. This could take some time to get used to (especially if your horse is dependant on you pulling the reins to tell him which way to go.) Skippy! was like that too.. only he kept bolting off, and he ignored the snaffle. We gave him a tom thumb, and viola! Bliss! He hasnt done it since. The first time he tried with the new bit, he got a rude awakening!! Also remember to use your seat, sit back when you cue.. it always helps get the message across ^_^

12-02-2005, 02:44 PM
LiquidStarlight Yearling Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 865	Sorry, yes that is the picture of the bit I am using . I'm using it as a curb, and he still ignores it and doesn't listen to my commands like he should. The only command he does listen to, is turning around to go back home because he is barn sour. I could give the Tom Thumb a try, I didn't want to go with a bit too harsh, or a bit that isn't harsh enough. That's why I asked everyone here, with everyone's great knowledge __________________ There are times when you can trust a horse, times when you can't, and times when you have to.

12-02-2005, 03:32 PM
Orchid Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 10,083	Have you ever tried the one rein stop with him? IMO a different bit is not going to solve your problem - this is a training issue. __________________ I have nothing witty or even charming to say at this point.

12-02-2005, 04:01 PM
Skippy! Halter broke Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Auburn, AL Posts: 190	And, that bit is very similar to a tom thumb, if anything, maybe it has a wee bit less effectivity with the curb (maybe.. im not entirely sure) just because the shanks appear to be those of a grazing bit, so since they are already curved, when you go to pull, you dont get as much tightness from the chain. Arg! this is hard for me to write out! Anyways, that bit is very, very similar to a tom thumb, so i dont think getting a tom thumb would make too much of a difference. (again, maybe.. im not sure, every horse is different!) Is the chain fitting properly? Can you fit two fingers beneith it snugly? If its loose, then you have no woah!! lol! I agree that it does sound like a training issue, i know how it can be "tearing" a horse away from his breakfast they will do anything to get back. My horses always creep out and a slow, slow walk, but when it comes time to go home, i have to hold them back. I never knew Skippy!'s extended walk could cover such ground!! Good luck, and keep us posted!

12-02-2005, 04:02 PM
Ahrodie227 Halter broke Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 81	This is a good thread for me! What is a one rein stop? __________________ \"Barcelona, where the winds all blew. The churches don\'t have windows, but the graveyards do.\"

12-02-2005, 04:18 PM
PaintedWonders Long Yearling Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hillsboro, Ohio Posts: 1,242	Could he be saddle sore? A friend of mines horse acted like that, he would run through the bit and at times even bunny hop. It turned out he was very saddle sore and just couldn't wait to get home and get the saddle off! - Another thought is his teeth.. does he still have his wolf teeth? Or maybe need a float? - Just a few thoughts... __________________ Please Help Support The Elizabeth Theofilos Equine Dream Fund Visit us at Cedar Hills Equines!

12-02-2005, 05:00 PM
carlagsd Yearling Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 730	I suggest teaching the one rein stop, too. It saved me from being run off with one time. I was REALLY glad I had taken the time to teach my gelding at home in the arena and in our fields before I took him on the road. He spotted some "scary cows" whose pasture came right up to the road. We crested a hill when he first saw them. He stopped suddenly, then after studying them for a minute decided to bolt for home. I reacted quick enough to keep him from taking but one or two steps and immediately put him into the one rein stop. We turned in circles for a while, almost went into the ditch, almost smashed a mailbox and came pretty close to falling into a stream. But thankfully after spinning in circles with no cues from me other than the one rein cue, he remembered, "oh, this means stop" and he did. I used Clinton Andersons method and I'm training my old, stiff mare to do it too. It saved me from having a runaway and I plan to teach it to every horse I ride from now on. I spent a month teaching it at home before we went out on the road. It teaches them to flex to either side when they feel pressure on the bit and supposedly prevents them from taking the bit and running with it. It worked for me!

12-02-2005, 06:42 PM
Range Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Back of Beyond Posts: 5,898	whoa I don't think a different bit is going to help, either. You're going to end up going to a harsher bit, he'll learn to avoid it, you'll go to yet another harsh bit...see what I mean? I would try going back to the round pen or the lunge line and work on the voice command "whoa". If the horse doesn't stop immediately when you ask from any gait, make him work at a good trot for twice around, then ask again, no response, trots 4 times around. The less he listens, the more work he does. The one rein stop is good, but I would try it gradually so you don't overbalance and fall. It works with the donkey even without a bit. You have to do it with a direct rein. Bring one hand back towards your hip and encourage a circle, smaller and smaller until you get the stop. I would suggest doing it before you're in the middle of the road, though! These are just things that I have done with my horses, so only my opinion. __________________ If it harms none, do what you will.

12-02-2005, 07:13 PM
leadmare Long Yearling Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,099	Like Range said, this is a training issue. In my book, a horse should "Whoa" (Stop any and all motion) no matter what he is or isn't wearing on his head or in his mouth. I, like Range suggested, go back to the ground work. If it isn't perfected on the ground, I don't get in the saddle. Anytime I ask for the "whoa", I ask for 2 or three steps backwards. This sets the horse up to think "Whoa" means "Back". Never say "Whoa" unless you are asking for a complete "Shut down" on any horse that has been under me. To change gait to a slower gait, I use easy, slow or the gait (Trot, jog...) I am looking for. If I don't get the stop I want when I ask for the "Whoa", I'll back them to kingdom come if I have to, to set it in their head. I will use the one rein stop, back two steps, if they don't get it. But I will go back to the ground work, if I have to use one rein more than 2-3 times. Good luck and be safe __________________ *When a man's ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. Proverbs 16:7*

12-02-2005, 07:45 PM
joustinggirl Greenbroke Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Boones Mill, Virgina Posts: 3,392	I agree with Range and Leadmare. Teach the whoa on the ground. A harsher bit will only lead to more pulling. The goal is to teach them to stop, not make them stop. I find it odd how many people gape at me when my horses actually stop when I just say whoa. It has sold a few for me too. When lunging, say whoa and if they don't, pull on the line and make them stop and face you. Then start them again. You will be amazed how quick they pick up on it. I also teach the one rein stop. If it is part of your training protocol and your horse knows what it means they will not fall over or lost balance, they will stop. __________________ Pink Tiger says \'Grrrrrr\'

12-02-2005, 08:15 PM
2manyfurbabies Halter broke Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 110	Here's another vote for a training issue, not a bit issue. My horses use a d-ring snaffle with dropped noseband. The noseband really helped give me power brakes and steering! The one rein stop, or doubling, is a great method to halt your horse, or get him to slow down/relax. If he consistently breaks gait, double him around using the inside rein low and towards your knee. Keep him there till he drops into the slower gait (or stop)you want, then release him straight (his reward). Every time he speeds up, double him. To gain confidence, practise this at all gaits. Teach a good balanced stop. Voice command whoa, give the horse 3 steps while increasing contact on the bit. After 3 warning checks, use a back and forth sawing action to get his attention and let him know you mean business. Then back him 1-2 steps. In very short order, you'll have a nice whoa on the haunches.

12-03-2005, 09:35 AM
LiquidStarlight Yearling Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 865	I found out yesterday that the owner had slipped in 2 bridles to his tack bag when she brought him over 4 weeks ago. I've been using one of the bridles that she gave me with the bit I pictured, but I found another one with a Tom Thumb on it. I called the previous owner and asked her about it. The bridle I was using was an English one, the girl had it and decided she didn't need it so slipped it into my bag. And that was the only one I had seen for awhile. Then I discovered a western Circle Y headstall with a Tom Thumb, and a curb chain on it. She said that is the bridle she used on him. When I talked to the girl on the day she brought him over, she said she put his bridle (not bridles) in the bag. So I'm going to switch back to the bridle he is used to today, and just teach him on stopping before I do anymore trail riding. He is supposedly a well-trained horse, so maybe I just have to fool around with it for a while, and see if I wasn't asking him right. Also, I'm plannng on doing groundwork with him today also. Thankyou everyone for posting all your suggestions, it really helped me out alot! __________________ There are times when you can trust a horse, times when you can't, and times when you have to.