UPDATE.. on HELP HORSE Wont move

24cindy24 · 08-29-2005, 02:08 PM

Okay, this is just a really update on my mom's 3 year old horse that we are having trouble getting to move. We have been trying to do the leading while someone is on the back giving cues for the past couple of weeks. He does just fine when someone is leading him and the rider is giving the cues. But the moment you let go he STOPS! My mom got a bat and has learned a that when he stops or wont go if she taps him on the neck kinda like hey come on he starts going.

We are really starting to hate that you can be going along and he just stops. So you have to tap him on the neck and he starts up again for a little longer and then stops. You just repeat this the whole time you are trying to ride him. He is starting to walk a little more before stopping but we figured he should be starting to get the hang of it now.

Any advice? reasons on why he might be like this?

She likes this horse b/c it was a mothers day present but she gets so fustrated with him. Sometimes she wants to sell him but I don't want someone else to have to go though the same thing we are... He will make an awesome jumper or wp horse. he is tall and beautiful.

leadmare · 08-29-2005, 02:28 PM

Once you turn him loose from the lead and your on the ground and Mom in the saddle make sure your body language is not telling him something different than she is.

Also, if you don't think that may be the issue,

His engine is in the rear not the shoulder or neck area. Catch his hind end just for thinking about stopping. You'll have to read him and as soon as he seems like he's slowing to stop get after his engine

Try not to let his feet stop until you stop him, and make him uncomfortable quickly if he does stop without you wanting him to.

Hope this helps

tiggypoodle · 08-29-2005, 02:53 PM

<snip>

You once asked about ground driving, and TRUST ME it would make all the difference in the world in training your horse to go forward. Your horse is just a baby and doesn't understand what you are asking it to do. Ground driving teaches your horse what your cues mean, which you can then use when you are in the saddle.

I've started my fair share of horses under saddle and it NEVER took me more than two or three rides to get them to the point where they would go when you asked. Yes, I used someone leading the horse at first, but it was mostly for comfort for the horse rather than direction. Then, because they had been ground driven, they understood the cues for "go forward" and knew that NOT going forward was not acceptable.

<snip>

Good luck.

Lily

<edited by Orchid>

24cindy24 · 08-29-2005, 02:58 PM

Well, we have done the tapping the rear end but for some reason that does not help you have tap him like 10 times and then he goes but if you tap his neck once he will go

When I let go of the lead rope when leading him I keep walking but he stops!!!!!!

24cindy24 · 08-29-2005, 03:14 PM

<snip>

With the ground driving I have read and had people tell me that it is actually harder to learn if you don't know what you are doin!!! I HAVE NEVER done it so really don't feel comfortable doing it.

We have tried the following who try to get him to move and like this post started out saying he is moving but we are just having to get his attention with the tap on the next. When we first got on him trying to ride HE WOULD NOT BUDGE NO MATTER WHAT....

We did the turns until he took a step that worked for a week and then he was back to being stubborn.

So then we worked on his ground cues... has those down to the "T" he say trot he trots, you say walk he walks, stop, lope, turn, etc...

We then went to the having someone lead him and after a few weeks but the moment you let go he would stop....

the only thing we have learned to keep him moving is the tap on the neck...it doesn't work on the butt and spurs don't work on him. We don't want to beat the poor horse. So I was just seeing if there was any more advice someone might be able to give on why he responds to the tap on the next... I have appreciated all the advice I have gotten on trying to help and have tried... Tiggy I apologize you don't feel like I have listen/read ya'lls advice but I have. THANK YOU ALL!

<edited by Orchid>

Orchid · 08-29-2005, 03:22 PM

Okay, everyone, let's keep things friendly here please.

Cindy -

Have you considered enlisting the help of a trainer to get past this hurdle? Perhaps if you feel ground driving would work it would be to your advantage to have someone teach you to do it. Also, a trainer may be able to see things in person that you or he are doing that we just cannot. I'm not suggesting that you give up on training him, just that you might consider getting help with this one issue.

Heather

tobianoveropaint · 08-29-2005, 03:23 PM

I strongly suggest ponying her. I did this with my filly and it took her no time at all to learn what the commands meant! In my opinion it makes alot of sense because this way they learn from an already trained horse that knows the commands. ei. Say whoa to the horse you're riding, and both horses must stop, say walk and you're trained horse begins to walk and therefore the young one will do the same. I find it's a very clear way to communicate what you want to a young, or any untrained horse for that matter. I hope my advice helps! I only had to do this a couple times, and she understood very well what the clucks and the whoas meant. Before I ponied her she really had no idea what I wanted from her. Good luck!

Tiggypoodle: She did not say that she hadn't tried the advice she was given, so it's not fair to assume that. She was merely requesting further advice as the advice she was given, did not work.

24cindy24 · 08-29-2005, 03:34 PM

Thank tobianoveropaint

We have only tried poning him once and now that horse(the one we used) is out of commission for a little while but as soon as we can ride him again we might just keep at the poning him around. He didn't like it when we did it that one time but the horse we used was an awesome "pony" horse and would drag him.

I have admitted that I have never trained a horse before so I am taking everyones advice for this horse and on my two year old.

But I will say Rocky (2) pickes up on everything SO MUCh quicker and has been a wonderful experience in training.

We are actually giving him a month or two off right now so I can help with Harley (3) b/c he is the one challanging us and maybe we might need to send him to a professional trainer if we can't get him to move without the tap on the neck

leadmare · 08-29-2005, 04:56 PM

Just another thought here, well a question or two.

Do you have a round pen? If so, How is he in there without rider? Does he free lunge?

Maybe more suggestions, with more information

I am sorry I am not up to date with this horse. I'll read if it is already posted somewhere, just need to be pointed in that direction

Orchid · 08-29-2005, 04:59 PM

Here you go leadmare:

http://forum.horsetopia.com/viewtopic.php?t=1488

and

http://forum.horsetopia.com/viewtopic.php?t=2895

leadmare · 08-29-2005, 05:26 PM

Thank you very much Orchid.

After reading the history here (not to be rude) the only advice I can give is you need a pro. Even 30 days with one will give you a start with him.

Best wishes

tobianoveropaint · 08-30-2005, 11:07 AM

The first time I ponied my filly, she didn't like it much either. My husband just stayed behind her, and if she didn't want to move he'd lightly tap her on the behind with a longe whip. After the first session she'd move along no problem without it.

mestep · 08-30-2005, 11:50 AM

hello, i understand your problem we have just overcame the same problem with our 3 yr old QH filly, she wouldnt go either unless someone was leading her. so we used a riding crop to tap her butt and it worked but is wasnt instantly that we could see the results it took about 8 rides of hour long and now we only have to use it maybe once per ride if it has been a while since we rode her. so maybe tapping his neck will work he may just need a little more time because as we all know no two horses are the same. good luck!!!

AlwaysBrokePaints · 08-30-2005, 12:20 PM

Cin, I hope this helps.

When you turn a horse, it can't help but move to keep its balence. When I have problems with my horse moving forward, I turn its head til it has to take a step and then I keep encouraging while I am turning to get him going forward. Don't just go one direction, but pull him back and forth. It won't look pretty at first cause it is literally a step to the left, step to the right until you can get him going a little faster and eventually, you won't have to pull their head as far and the foot will move and as you do this, you can eventually get him to start walking a straight line. Make sure you use your legs, keep leg on him while you are making him side to side. Cue him as if you were turning (inside rein, outside leg) and keep repeating. The more responsive he becomes, the less you will have to do and when he starts responding better, put both legs on him to give him a direction to follow. I have done this with 3 horses I have trained and it works well.

ron · 08-30-2005, 12:21 PM

what part of the Texas Hill country.
Maybe I can suggest someone to help.

It is painfully obvious to me that the horse is in charge.

One small rule in horses herd dynamics.

The horse that makes the other horse move it's feet is in charge.

This is a pretty easy fix really for someone who is equipped with a round pen and just a little knowledge in basic horsemanship.

Let me know where you are and where you travel to regularly and I can try to find you someone who can help teach the horse what you are asking of it and teach you how to ask for it properly.

This little basic thing can make a world of difference in your and your horses future.

24cindy24 · 08-30-2005, 01:24 PM

Thanks to all for the advice...

I live 45 min west of Austin. I am not turning down that we might actually have to get a professional trainer to help out with Harley b/c he is seeming to be more of a turd head then we are knowledable for.

addressing the control issue.. the people that we bought Harley from where afraid of him b/c he is a pretty big boy and will push you around so he got away with everything... we have been working with showing him who is boss and he understands that... he still will be pushy every so often and this horse has an attitude on him when he wants too....

Note:: This horse is the same one that bucked me off and broke my wrist... I still ride him but if you make him mad while riding he will tuck that head and try to buck some more and his bucks or feet above head bucks!!!!!

EquineAlberta · 08-30-2005, 02:52 PM

Cindy, not sure if this helps, but I have a horse that we are in the process of buying and he sometimes comes across as Stubborn, but I think with him it is a combo of 2 issues; 1) I think he was sore, he had foundered in the past, and popped a splint, but didn't limp so I think it was overlooked, but he moved odd, so I think his reluctance to go was in part from being sore.

2) He gets confused. If I do something silly, like stick my arms out and flap them like a bird, he stops dead regardless of my leg. Same if I start to lean to one side or back. I am working on that, but it is taking patience (and little taps from the riding crop).

I guess if someone handed my a horse with problems like you describe, my first step would be to turn him out for a while to mature and/or heal if there is a hidden soreness issue (horses can hide them well), and then try again from the start in a few weeks either yourselves or a trainer. Maybe wait until your ponying horse is back up and going? It may give ALL of you a fresh start and new outlook.

Karen2

ron · 08-30-2005, 03:30 PM

Well, OK then.

I just thought since you have been fighting this for 5 months (since may) that you are not really equipped to handle the situation.

Let me know when you decide. But here's a hint. It aint gonna get no better without internention. He's got your number.

24cindy24 · 08-30-2005, 04:30 PM

Well, Maybe I will convience my mom to just let him have off with Rocky for a month and we will start fresh and by then our pony horse should be back up

Ron thanks for the advice I might take you up on the trainer b/c I am getting fustrated at my mom for getting so mad at Harley. But she just doesn't want to pay an out rageous fee for one... that is her hold up of not sending him to one already.

He is slowly getting better but we just want to get him out of the fact that you have to tap him on the neck and if you try to turn while walking or trotting he stops completly

I forgot to repley earlier that I do not have a round pen at my house but we have been taking him down to an arena with a round pend to side to work with him.

foxtrottergal · 08-30-2005, 11:50 PM

I was going to suggest maybe some blunt spurs, but if he bucks..oh no..that would get him bucking I am sure. I have always had good luck with my horses in getting them to move out with them or getting them to gait and not get in a rough jog. Hope you get your ponying horse back up soon and he starts getting the idea of what your wanting..usually most horses want to follow the others. I understand about wanting to do it yourself, it is an issue of money, can cost 200.00 a week in my area and then you are not sure that they are actually working with your horse..I have had that happen..paid for boarding for 3 months and the horse was the same when I got him back, and it is an issue of pride..wanting to handle it yourself, You got yourself in this, you will get yourself out. Just try to be careful, don't want to hear about any more broken bones. I broke my leg on a 4 wheeler and my tibia never would heal, so I had to have a rod put it, now I don't try to be TOO brave anymore, since i know it will involve a surgery..yuck. Lost time and wages..ya know.
Either way, I wish you the best of luck and wish I had some suggestions.

08-29-2005, 02:08 PM
24cindy24 Weanling Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hill Country in Texas Posts: 266	UPDATE.. on HELP HORSE Wont move Okay, this is just a really update on my mom's 3 year old horse that we are having trouble getting to move. We have been trying to do the leading while someone is on the back giving cues for the past couple of weeks. He does just fine when someone is leading him and the rider is giving the cues. But the moment you let go he STOPS! My mom got a bat and has learned a that when he stops or wont go if she taps him on the neck kinda like hey come on he starts going. We are really starting to hate that you can be going along and he just stops. So you have to tap him on the neck and he starts up again for a little longer and then stops. You just repeat this the whole time you are trying to ride him. He is starting to walk a little more before stopping but we figured he should be starting to get the hang of it now. Any advice? reasons on why he might be like this? She likes this horse b/c it was a mothers day present but she gets so fustrated with him. Sometimes she wants to sell him but I don't want someone else to have to go though the same thing we are... He will make an awesome jumper or wp horse. he is tall and beautiful. __________________ Live Life to the fullest on the back of a horse!

08-29-2005, 02:28 PM
leadmare Long Yearling Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,168	Once you turn him loose from the lead and your on the ground and Mom in the saddle make sure your body language is not telling him something different than she is. Also, if you don't think that may be the issue, His engine is in the rear not the shoulder or neck area. Catch his hind end just for thinking about stopping. You'll have to read him and as soon as he seems like he's slowing to stop get after his engine Try not to let his feet stop until you stop him, and make him uncomfortable quickly if he does stop without you wanting him to. Hope this helps __________________ *When a man's ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. Proverbs 16:7*

08-29-2005, 02:53 PM
tiggypoodle Coming two Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Home Sweet Home, Badger Canyon, WA Posts: 1,691	<snip> You once asked about ground driving, and TRUST ME it would make all the difference in the world in training your horse to go forward. Your horse is just a baby and doesn't understand what you are asking it to do. Ground driving teaches your horse what your cues mean, which you can then use when you are in the saddle. I've started my fair share of horses under saddle and it NEVER took me more than two or three rides to get them to the point where they would go when you asked. Yes, I used someone leading the horse at first, but it was mostly for comfort for the horse rather than direction. Then, because they had been ground driven, they understood the cues for "go forward" and knew that NOT going forward was not acceptable. <snip> Good luck. Lily <edited by Orchid>

08-29-2005, 02:58 PM
24cindy24 Weanling Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hill Country in Texas Posts: 266	Well, we have done the tapping the rear end but for some reason that does not help you have tap him like 10 times and then he goes but if you tap his neck once he will go When I let go of the lead rope when leading him I keep walking but he stops!!!!!! __________________ Live Life to the fullest on the back of a horse!

08-29-2005, 03:14 PM
24cindy24 Weanling Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hill Country in Texas Posts: 266	<snip> With the ground driving I have read and had people tell me that it is actually harder to learn if you don't know what you are doin!!! I HAVE NEVER done it so really don't feel comfortable doing it. We have tried the following who try to get him to move and like this post started out saying he is moving but we are just having to get his attention with the tap on the next. When we first got on him trying to ride HE WOULD NOT BUDGE NO MATTER WHAT.... We did the turns until he took a step that worked for a week and then he was back to being stubborn. So then we worked on his ground cues... has those down to the "T" he say trot he trots, you say walk he walks, stop, lope, turn, etc... We then went to the having someone lead him and after a few weeks but the moment you let go he would stop.... the only thing we have learned to keep him moving is the tap on the neck...it doesn't work on the butt and spurs don't work on him. We don't want to beat the poor horse. So I was just seeing if there was any more advice someone might be able to give on why he responds to the tap on the next... I have appreciated all the advice I have gotten on trying to help and have tried... Tiggy I apologize you don't feel like I have listen/read ya'lls advice but I have. THANK YOU ALL! <edited by Orchid> __________________ Live Life to the fullest on the back of a horse!

08-29-2005, 03:22 PM
Orchid Bombproof Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 11,048	Okay, everyone, let's keep things friendly here please. Cindy - Have you considered enlisting the help of a trainer to get past this hurdle? Perhaps if you feel ground driving would work it would be to your advantage to have someone teach you to do it. Also, a trainer may be able to see things in person that you or he are doing that we just cannot. I'm not suggesting that you give up on training him, just that you might consider getting help with this one issue. Heather __________________ Careful what you wish; Careful what you say; Careful what you wish; You may regret it; Careful what you wish; You just might get it. ~ Metallica, King Nothing

08-29-2005, 03:23 PM
tobianoveropaint Yearling Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 510	I strongly suggest ponying her. I did this with my filly and it took her no time at all to learn what the commands meant! In my opinion it makes alot of sense because this way they learn from an already trained horse that knows the commands. ei. Say whoa to the horse you're riding, and both horses must stop, say walk and you're trained horse begins to walk and therefore the young one will do the same. I find it's a very clear way to communicate what you want to a young, or any untrained horse for that matter. I hope my advice helps! I only had to do this a couple times, and she understood very well what the clucks and the whoas meant. Before I ponied her she really had no idea what I wanted from her. Good luck! Tiggypoodle: She did not say that she hadn't tried the advice she was given, so it's not fair to assume that. She was merely requesting further advice as the advice she was given, did not work.

08-29-2005, 03:34 PM
24cindy24 Weanling Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hill Country in Texas Posts: 266	Thank tobianoveropaint We have only tried poning him once and now that horse(the one we used) is out of commission for a little while but as soon as we can ride him again we might just keep at the poning him around. He didn't like it when we did it that one time but the horse we used was an awesome "pony" horse and would drag him. I have admitted that I have never trained a horse before so I am taking everyones advice for this horse and on my two year old. But I will say Rocky (2) pickes up on everything SO MUCh quicker and has been a wonderful experience in training. We are actually giving him a month or two off right now so I can help with Harley (3) b/c he is the one challanging us and maybe we might need to send him to a professional trainer if we can't get him to move without the tap on the neck __________________ Live Life to the fullest on the back of a horse!

08-29-2005, 04:56 PM
leadmare Long Yearling Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,168	Just another thought here, well a question or two. Do you have a round pen? If so, How is he in there without rider? Does he free lunge? Maybe more suggestions, with more information I am sorry I am not up to date with this horse. I'll read if it is already posted somewhere, just need to be pointed in that direction __________________ *When a man's ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. Proverbs 16:7*

08-29-2005, 04:59 PM
Orchid Bombproof Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 11,048	Here you go leadmare: http://forum.horsetopia.com/viewtopic.php?t=1488 and http://forum.horsetopia.com/viewtopic.php?t=2895 __________________ Careful what you wish; Careful what you say; Careful what you wish; You may regret it; Careful what you wish; You just might get it. ~ Metallica, King Nothing

08-29-2005, 05:26 PM
leadmare Long Yearling Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,168	Thank you very much Orchid. After reading the history here (not to be rude) the only advice I can give is you need a pro. Even 30 days with one will give you a start with him. Best wishes __________________ *When a man's ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. Proverbs 16:7*

08-30-2005, 11:07 AM
tobianoveropaint Yearling Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 510	The first time I ponied my filly, she didn't like it much either. My husband just stayed behind her, and if she didn't want to move he'd lightly tap her on the behind with a longe whip. After the first session she'd move along no problem without it.

08-30-2005, 11:50 AM
mestep Started Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Crab Orchard, Ky Posts: 2,246	hello, i understand your problem we have just overcame the same problem with our 3 yr old QH filly, she wouldnt go either unless someone was leading her. so we used a riding crop to tap her butt and it worked but is wasnt instantly that we could see the results it took about 8 rides of hour long and now we only have to use it maybe once per ride if it has been a while since we rode her. so maybe tapping his neck will work he may just need a little more time because as we all know no two horses are the same. good luck!!!

08-30-2005, 12:20 PM
AlwaysBrokePaints Weanling Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hudsonville, MI Posts: 206	Cin, I hope this helps. When you turn a horse, it can't help but move to keep its balence. When I have problems with my horse moving forward, I turn its head til it has to take a step and then I keep encouraging while I am turning to get him going forward. Don't just go one direction, but pull him back and forth. It won't look pretty at first cause it is literally a step to the left, step to the right until you can get him going a little faster and eventually, you won't have to pull their head as far and the foot will move and as you do this, you can eventually get him to start walking a straight line. Make sure you use your legs, keep leg on him while you are making him side to side. Cue him as if you were turning (inside rein, outside leg) and keep repeating. The more responsive he becomes, the less you will have to do and when he starts responding better, put both legs on him to give him a direction to follow. I have done this with 3 horses I have trained and it works well.

08-30-2005, 12:21 PM
ron Started Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 2,810	what part of the Texas Hill country. Maybe I can suggest someone to help. It is painfully obvious to me that the horse is in charge. One small rule in horses herd dynamics. The horse that makes the other horse move it's feet is in charge. This is a pretty easy fix really for someone who is equipped with a round pen and just a little knowledge in basic horsemanship. Let me know where you are and where you travel to regularly and I can try to find you someone who can help teach the horse what you are asking of it and teach you how to ask for it properly. This little basic thing can make a world of difference in your and your horses future.

08-30-2005, 01:24 PM
24cindy24 Weanling Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hill Country in Texas Posts: 266	Thanks to all for the advice... I live 45 min west of Austin. I am not turning down that we might actually have to get a professional trainer to help out with Harley b/c he is seeming to be more of a turd head then we are knowledable for. addressing the control issue.. the people that we bought Harley from where afraid of him b/c he is a pretty big boy and will push you around so he got away with everything... we have been working with showing him who is boss and he understands that... he still will be pushy every so often and this horse has an attitude on him when he wants too.... Note:: This horse is the same one that bucked me off and broke my wrist... I still ride him but if you make him mad while riding he will tuck that head and try to buck some more and his bucks or feet above head bucks!!!!! __________________ Live Life to the fullest on the back of a horse!

08-30-2005, 02:52 PM
EquineAlberta Kid Safe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 6,006	Cindy, not sure if this helps, but I have a horse that we are in the process of buying and he sometimes comes across as Stubborn, but I think with him it is a combo of 2 issues; 1) I think he was sore, he had foundered in the past, and popped a splint, but didn't limp so I think it was overlooked, but he moved odd, so I think his reluctance to go was in part from being sore. 2) He gets confused. If I do something silly, like stick my arms out and flap them like a bird, he stops dead regardless of my leg. Same if I start to lean to one side or back. I am working on that, but it is taking patience (and little taps from the riding crop). I guess if someone handed my a horse with problems like you describe, my first step would be to turn him out for a while to mature and/or heal if there is a hidden soreness issue (horses can hide them well), and then try again from the start in a few weeks either yourselves or a trainer. Maybe wait until your ponying horse is back up and going? It may give ALL of you a fresh start and new outlook. Karen2

08-30-2005, 03:30 PM
ron Started Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 2,810	Well, OK then. I just thought since you have been fighting this for 5 months (since may) that you are not really equipped to handle the situation. Let me know when you decide. But here's a hint. It aint gonna get no better without internention. He's got your number.

08-30-2005, 04:30 PM
24cindy24 Weanling Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hill Country in Texas Posts: 266	Well, Maybe I will convience my mom to just let him have off with Rocky for a month and we will start fresh and by then our pony horse should be back up Ron thanks for the advice I might take you up on the trainer b/c I am getting fustrated at my mom for getting so mad at Harley. But she just doesn't want to pay an out rageous fee for one... that is her hold up of not sending him to one already. He is slowly getting better but we just want to get him out of the fact that you have to tap him on the neck and if you try to turn while walking or trotting he stops completly I forgot to repley earlier that I do not have a round pen at my house but we have been taking him down to an arena with a round pend to side to work with him. __________________ Live Life to the fullest on the back of a horse!

08-30-2005, 11:50 PM
foxtrottergal Yearling Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 746	I was going to suggest maybe some blunt spurs, but if he bucks..oh no..that would get him bucking I am sure. I have always had good luck with my horses in getting them to move out with them or getting them to gait and not get in a rough jog. Hope you get your ponying horse back up soon and he starts getting the idea of what your wanting..usually most horses want to follow the others. I understand about wanting to do it yourself, it is an issue of money, can cost 200.00 a week in my area and then you are not sure that they are actually working with your horse..I have had that happen..paid for boarding for 3 months and the horse was the same when I got him back, and it is an issue of pride..wanting to handle it yourself, You got yourself in this, you will get yourself out. Just try to be careful, don't want to hear about any more broken bones. I broke my leg on a 4 wheeler and my tibia never would heal, so I had to have a rod put it, now I don't try to be TOO brave anymore, since i know it will involve a surgery..yuck. Lost time and wages..ya know. Either way, I wish you the best of luck and wish I had some suggestions. __________________ Our hoofbeats were many, but our hearts beat as one. (I miss you Sammy & Sarge)