Horse Forum
Home Forum Home Search Horses for Sale Other ClassifiedsNEW! Post an Ad Help

Go Back   Horsetopia Forum > Riding and Training > Training
Note: Forum logins are completely separate
from your Horsetopia classifieds account or wishlist.
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-22-2010, 11:58 PM  
Newborn Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2
Using a tie down for training QUESTION

We have a question we have been trying to figure out.

Why would a horse trainer want to use a tie down on a horse all the time when they get them for training, tuning up? or even to get them neck reining?

we are confused as to why a trainer would HAVE to constantly use a tie down for any of these especially when the horse has a good head set....especially if the horses dont even hold there heads high. I dont use a tie down on my horses..but did send one away to get neck reined and he is 9 years old...the trainer insisted on using a tie down in him......AND FOR THE LIFE OF ME I DONT NO WHY
couleegal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 06:29 AM  
Started
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Arcadia and Marianna, Florida
Posts: 2,182
Why? Because the trainer has always done it this way. Because the trainer doesn't know what he is doing. Because the trainer is afraid the horse will run away/flip over backwards/rear up/jerk its head up and break his nose.

There you have three answers. I'm going to guess that the trainer's answer, were you to ask, would be one of those three.

I've taught a few horses to neck rein over the years, and I can't imagine a reason to use a tie down while doing so. The last one, I used a bosal and mecate, and I can't even imagine how you'd use a tie down with a bosal and mecate, although I'm sure someone has.

I used to see tie downs hooked to the curb chain. And was told that the reason there was a ring in the middle of the curb chain was because that is where the tie-down is hooked.

Roping horses, some barrel horses, a few bulldogging horses, require a tie-down. If your trainer specializes in rodeo event horses, he'll probably slap a tie down on anything he's working.
theoldbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 06:47 AM  
Kid Safe
 
Sirita_88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mt. Juliet, Tennessee
Posts: 7,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldbear View Post
Why? Because the trainer has always done it this way. Because the trainer doesn't know what he is doing. Because the trainer is afraid the horse will run away/flip over backwards/rear up/jerk its head up and break his nose.

There you have three answers. I'm going to guess that the trainer's answer, were you to ask, would be one of those three.

I've taught a few horses to neck rein over the years, and I can't imagine a reason to use a tie down while doing so. The last one, I used a bosal and mecate, and I can't even imagine how you'd use a tie down with a bosal and mecate, although I'm sure someone has.

I used to see tie downs hooked to the curb chain. And was told that the reason there was a ring in the middle of the curb chain was because that is where the tie-down is hooked.

Roping horses, some barrel horses, a few bulldogging horses, require a tie-down. If your trainer specializes in rodeo event horses, he'll probably slap a tie down on anything he's working.
Ditto... Thing is, you may stop a horse from flipping over, but what about bucking if you can't get thier head up?

IMO I would get my horse away from the guy and run the opposite direction!
__________________


RIP Justin
You stole my heart and for that, I am grateful.
Sirita_88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 07:37 AM  
Seasoned
 
recklesshoundog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 4,408
I'm in the "they don't know what they are doing" crowd.

If you force a horses head down it will more than likely make them flip over....so the to keep them from flipping isn't realistic.
recklesshoundog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 10:24 AM  
Pasture Pet
 
EquineAlberta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,612
The trainer likely just thinks of a tie down as an integral part of their training tool kit. Something they have always used without thinking about it.

It could also be that the trainer takes short cuts and the tie down lets them get away with things with the horse...

Proceed with caution.

Karen
EquineAlberta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 11:02 AM  
Newborn Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2
Thanks to all for your replys! i had taken one of our horses there only to get him neck reining as he only plowed reined..he never held his head in the whole time we had him,,thus why i was totally confused as to the tie down method also the trainers use a O-ring snaffle....the horse is not a reinier nor a barrel horse only a trailhorse.We had voiced our opinion on this to them but they insisted thats the only method they use and they considered using the tie down as a gentle method..they advertise alot in my area and continue to use this rather it be starting a young one or fine tuning a aged one...This method has caused quite a debate in my household....lololololol
couleegal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 11:14 AM  
Started
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Arcadia and Marianna, Florida
Posts: 2,182
I remember going to a big sale of gaited horses in Tennessee several years ago.

One farm had about a dozen two and three year olds there. All wore tie-downs. After the first two or three had been "no saled" with very little interest, the auctioneer asked the owner why all his horses had tie downs.

The answer: "That's the way we start them all."

Well, it might have been the way they started them, but nobody was buying them.

Sounds like the same mentality.
theoldbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 11:27 AM  
Bombproof Member
 
Smilie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 8,886
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
unless the horse is a rope horse,or maybe a gymkana horse, if I see one ridden in a tie down, I know that either the horse is spoiled (rears ) or the rider has no clue as to what he is doing
Anyone can call themselves a trainer, and that is a sad fact.People only learn to shift through the chaff, finding those that really deserve that label, through time, experience and often the school of 'hard knocks"
You do not teach a horse to neck rein, or anything else for that matter, with a tie down.
You teach horses to neck rein by laying a firm foundation in a snaffle, similar to a child eventually learning to write by first being solid at printing.
That means you ride with a snaffle,using the indirect rein to re -inforce direct rein signal, while also using legs to keep correct total body aleignment
You then start asking with the indirect rein first, using the direct rein only to help keep correctness as needed
The horse then just graduates to working off of the indirect rein alone, to the point that you don't move the rein hand more than an inch or so from center of the mane while the horse keeps correct body aleignment in all manovers and gaits
You don't just set out to teach neck reining one day, esp with gimmicks. You ride that horse correctly in a snaffle so that eventual neck reining is just a natural progression
__________________
Great horses are born, not made, we only put on the refinement[/IMG]
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 02:05 PM  
Yearling Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 853
Yeah I just was at a horse show today and all the speed event horses had tie downs but were trying to rear. Tye downs solve nothing. Plus just the amount they were yanking on their mouths no wondering the horses want to rear! One girl got tossed and the horse did a victory lap! She was just yanking! I use leg a lot, I hate watching them yank and just using the tye downs to save them!!!!
__________________
"The essential joy of being with horses is that it brings us in contact with the rare elements of grace, beauty, spirit, and fire."

"
All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day."
KendalKL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 03:43 PM  
Kid Safe
 
Sirita_88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mt. Juliet, Tennessee
Posts: 7,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by KendalKL View Post
Yeah I just was at a horse show today and all the speed event horses had tie downs but were trying to rear. Tye downs solve nothing. Plus just the amount they were yanking on their mouths no wondering the horses want to rear! One girl got tossed and the horse did a victory lap! She was just yanking! I use leg a lot, I hate watching them yank and just using the tye downs to save them!!!!
I thought the purpose of a tie down was to give them balance around a turn. not to prevent one from rearing.
__________________


RIP Justin
You stole my heart and for that, I am grateful.
Sirita_88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 04:32 PM  
Yearling Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 853
Nope. Keeps their heads down that's about it. Actually it hinders their movement IMO. They can't use their necks for balance anymore, cause a lot f barrel racers with tie downs would hold their heads up so high but have the tie down so the horse would be in pain and confused and get frustrated. Tie downs kind of suck and are used for a quick fix! And a lot of horses freak out since they can't move their heads an end up flipping anyways! So no tie downs if you can avoid it!!!!!
__________________
"The essential joy of being with horses is that it brings us in contact with the rare elements of grace, beauty, spirit, and fire."

"
All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day."
KendalKL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 05:52 PM  
Conformation Clinic Coordinator
 
gilmorehorsemanship's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Columbus, NC
Posts: 5,011
I agree with theoldbear and Smilie.

It's like using a running martingale to compensate for the rider's bad hands. Call me old fashioned, but martingales/tiedowns if properly used are great training aides but not as a compensation for faulty training or poor riding skills on the part of the rider.

It gives me the willies when I see people riding with tiedowns, German Martingales and other goodies while out in the field. God forbid you and your horse end up in deep water with a tiedown. Tiedowns give too much opportunity for mishaps like getting tree branches and other nasty pointy things stuck in them which if that happens could seriously ruin a major portion of one's afternoon.
__________________
Gilmore Horsemanship
"If people treated other people like horses treated other horses there'd be a lot fewer jackasses in the world!" ------- Me
Tȟaŋke Witk?
gilmorehorsemanship is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 10:42 PM  
Bombproof Member
 
Smilie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alberta canada
Posts: 8,886
Send a message via AIM to Smilie
Right, Gilmore, regarding the general hazzard of trail riding with a tiedown
I know of one horse that slid off of a bank into a swollen river and downed with a tie down on, unable to raise his head
Another one almost drown, but luckily his tie down broke
It is true that a few well trained games horses will use a tiedown to balance on in the turns, but for the most part they are used to try and keep a horse from being light on his front end (rearing ), or from tossing his head to the degree that they contact the rider's face
__________________
Great horses are born, not made, we only put on the refinement[/IMG]
Smilie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 12:07 PM  
Bombproof Member
 
beth55051's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: East Central Minnesota
Posts: 8,407
Send a message via MSN to beth55051 Send a message via Yahoo to beth55051
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirita_88 View Post
I thought the purpose of a tie down was to give them balance around a turn. not to prevent one from rearing.
For some horse yes. For others it's a crutch because they failed to teach their horse to respond properly to the bit.

Often times they're used so the horse can't throw their head up when they get confused because the proper basics haven't been taught. The horse feels pain, they try to get away from the pain, but the tie down keeps their head down so they're forced to give to the pain rather than being taught to flex/bend/etc.

Yep, I've know several bad accidents and even horses that have drown or broken their necks because they were wearing tie downs out on trail. One horse drown in less than 2' of water because it got a leg over it's tie down and couldn't get back up. Knew another horse that tripped and because it couldn't get it's head up it rolled down a steep hill breaking it's neck.

Back to teaching to neck rein, if all of the basics are in place and the horse knows/understands how to give to the bit and knows how to bend/flex/give to the leg neck reining comes naturally since the horse already understands leg/seat cues and gives/flexes to the bit. It's just a matter of the horse then adding the laying of the rein on it's neck as another part of the cue.
__________________
Make that 6 years!

If at the end of the day, all you have left is your integrity and honor. Then hold your head up, because that's more than most have.
beth55051 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 08:07 PM  
Conformation Clinic Coordinator
 
gilmorehorsemanship's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Columbus, NC
Posts: 5,011
That's the theory with polo horses - tiedown for balance on sharp turns. That said, most polo players will never admit that the real reason they use them is to prevent rearing and bolting. Sure, a tiedown can put a lid on rearing or bolting but the horse will soon learn to put it's head up it's arse and start bucking like Ford with bad U-joints and loose transmission bolts on low octane fuel. And you can't do a thing 99% of the time to get the horse's head up (because of the tiedown) or move the forward out of a buck when that happens.

I have a whacky theory about tiedowns, running martingales and the like - these devices are designed to restrict the free movement of horses in the first example and to eliminate/reduce the effects of bad hands on the rider's part. I tend towards the belief that limiting a horse's range of mobility or a rider's palate of aides with such devices is asking for trouble. A horse may need to move a certain way and it can't leading to a train wreck or a rider can't properly apply rein in a direction that is critical when needed.

The problem I have with tiedowns is that there is a strick limit on mobility that the horse cannot avoid - once he hits the tiedown, the pressure doesn't release and the horse may fight it instead of backing off. It's like grabbing both reins and hanging on to try to slow down the horse and it denies the rider the ability to hit and release the pressure. Yanking and holding the reins on a bolting horse only makes them bolt to a higher degree.
__________________
Gilmore Horsemanship
"If people treated other people like horses treated other horses there'd be a lot fewer jackasses in the world!" ------- Me
Tȟaŋke Witk?
gilmorehorsemanship is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

  Horsetopia Forum > Riding and Training > Training


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anderson's "Hula Hoop" Question shayla Training 9 04-10-2011 05:04 PM
Question for the Farriers? seerfarm Hoof Talk 2 02-25-2008 03:06 PM
Officially a stupid question HighHorse Boarding / Farm Upkeep & Real Estate 19 12-14-2007 12:22 PM
Grain question kupersma07 General Horse Advice 15 02-13-2007 08:19 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:42 AM.


Board Powered by vBuletin ® Copyright © 2000 - 2007 Jel Soft

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0