Getting a horse on the bit

Amy · 11-05-2009, 04:06 PM

Okay, so here's the deal. I have a 6 year old mare, she was broke out at 4. I bought her at 5. She had me pretty intimidated with some green-horse temper-tantrum stuff (I'm green too, I know, I know) so the past year was basically just groundwork, and getting me confident enough to trail ride. I recently had a lady come put 30 days on her- she is now going very well in the arena at a walk-jog, moving off the leg, we are working on suppling, turning on the haunches, etc. When I have some more money, I'm going to have her out for another 30 days to get her loping.

One thing the trainer mentioned is that she didn't seem too happy in the bit I was using, that she will respond, but she is stiff and not really "on" the bit. She doesn't really get a foamy mouth, she will gape her jaws a bit. Teeth got floated a year ago, and she's due to get checked again, but I haven't noticed any eating issues.

For now, I have put her in a sweet-iron loose ring snaffle, and a bridle with a cavesson, per the trainers recommendation. Her other hint was to give a peppermint as I am putting the bridle on. She knows how to flex both ways with rein pressure, and we are starting verticle flexion now- she will drop her nose at a stop, but needs practice keeping it there.

Does anyone else have any hints or ideas on how to get her on the bit better? My old guy gets on the bit great, gets all slobbery and listens, but he's also been ridden English, and this mare is being trained Western, on a loose rein.

Thanks.

Horselady44 · 11-05-2009, 04:27 PM

A good exercise is to lunge them at a WALK with the reins in one hand. Doing lots of turns. Also, take the reins and back her up while your on the ground. Have you tried switching bits at all with her?

visionquest · 11-05-2009, 05:36 PM

You could also ride along a fence and reverse direction into the fence releasing the pressure of the bit as soon as your horse has committed to the turn. I have also worked on doing many many changes of gait, walk/stop/walk, walk trot/walk, walk/stop/back a step and walk again. Your mare needs to shift her weight to her rearend.

Slim Pikkens · 11-05-2009, 05:39 PM

Not all horses slobber or get foamy even with a sweet iron mouth. The moment she drops her poll, release the reins as tho your fingers were burned. She may raise her head again after only a few seconds but ask her again. Do this many times until she realizes when she drops her poll you release the rein pressure. That is her reward.

Amy · 11-05-2009, 08:55 PM

Thanks for the thoughts. I have lunged her with a bit in the mouth, thinking about getting a surcingle and long-lining... Anyone has experience using long lines to get to horse on the bit? The trainer I'm using long-lined her, and she immediatly broke at the poll and carried her head vertically.

I just changed her from a double jointed argentine snaffle type bit back to the ring snaffle. Trainer actually suggested getting a D-ring with rollers... Once again, I'm broke right now, but I figured the ring snaffle was closer the what she suggested than the shanked bit I was using. (The bit I was ising also had a snaffle ring, but I figured the simpler, the better).

I do a lot of flexing exercises, and I do drop the reins as soon as she gives. How do you tell a horse is really on the bit if they aren't slobbery? I can tell Lic is still resisting at times, today we were doing circles at the jog and - had to reinforce the leg cue with an inside rein to keep her from drifting.... I know I wasn't yanking or pulling too hard, but she was still gaping her mouth.

Thanks for all the ideas.

jesterjigger · 11-06-2009, 10:31 AM

It depends on what you want to do with the horse...what the best way is to get it on the bit. One thing that works well with my mare (we do dressage) is to "hold" with the outside rein and pulsate the inside rein through slight finger tensing and untensing while pushing the horse into the outside rein with the inside leg. Relax after three soft pulsations and if you didn't get a response (or as much of a response as you were looking for) do it again, and again, and again. When the horse gives then immediately soften as a reward, but don't throw away the reins, just relax your fingers/arms for a second and you can even verbally praise the horse.

The key is to half halt as often as necessary to keep the horse accepting of the bit and balanced. In the beginning I had to half halt my mare almost constantly until she built the muscles needed to maintain the frame and balance I was asking for, then I was able to judge when to half halt based on minute cues from her body, anticipating when she was going to break or come over the bit or get unbalanced and half halting before it was a huge deal.

kshnooks · 11-06-2009, 12:15 PM

I'm wondering if it could be also that she is young, green with only 30 days training, and just doesn't have the fitness built up yet to do what you are asking?

The half halts is a good method, so is doing lots of transition work. You want to work towards getting the horse to be balanced and using their rear. When they are doing this they will naturally drop their heads and round their back instead of being forced into a fake "frame". Try some hill work too, to work on getting her rear powering under her but not letting her get strung out.

One of the horses I ride takes about 5 minutes to really get her going and on the bit. We start off with some bending in both directions and walk/trot/halt transitions. And making sure she is listening to my leg so that I can really push her into my hand. With her too, she doesn't slobber. But when she's really working correctly, she'll flap her lower lip as we trot around. Thats how I know! LOL

ruffian · 11-06-2009, 12:35 PM

As was mentioned, not all horses slobber when working on the bit
Being on the bit, comes from the rear, so it is your seat and legs that will drive her forward into your hand, most correctly they don't break at the poll but behind that (3rd vertebrae?) and the head may be vertical or nose slightly ahead of vertical but never behind it.
Focus on getting her hind end under you and engaged, so that she is carrying the weight, not just pushing with her hind end. You will know the difference when you start to feel it, they get a bit of a swinging feel to them and get a lot lighter to ride. At her stage of training full contact is not going to happen all the time (and only in a straight pull bit, never a shanked) I like the copper and roller mouth, it gives them something to play with. If you focus just on head set you will be riding her from front to back, instead of back to front which is what you need for proper collection and carriage.
Lots of transitions, walk -trot-walk-halt, circles where you use your inside leg to push to contact with your outside hand, spirals in and out. It takes a while for a young horse to develop the muscles and balance to carry themselves (and you!) in a proper frame so keep the sessions short with lots of walk breaks on a long rein.

Amy · 11-06-2009, 12:48 PM

Thanks everyone for the advice. I can definitely tell the difference from when she is carrying her weight on the hind vs. on the fore... on the fore feels like riding a bulldozer. This usually happens out on the trail when she gets freaked out and starts hollowing out on me, either going into the "death trot" or a really disjointed canter.

She has been broke for over 2 years, but I think it's the lack of consistency that is making her still "green."

She is getting really good about leg cues, I will definitely try to spiral in/spiral out exercise. We are mostly riding her on a loose rein and using seat cues, and reinforcing with reins only if needed, so I guess the etire definition of "on the bit" is probably different from what it would be on an English horse ridden with direct contact, right?

Thanks again.

kshnooks · 11-06-2009, 01:12 PM

well...I think generally speaking the concept is the same. You want your horse collected, balanced and in self carriage.

I love this woman's blog http://mugwumpchronicles.blogspot.co...bel/collection

If you pull up the link, she has some good exercises to work on collection. And she was/is a cutting horse trainer, but many of her methods are similar to dressage. Good luck, I think this was one of the hardest things for me to learn but definitely the most benefical. And if you can feel it and know what its supposed to be, you're already on the right track!

Amy · 11-09-2009, 01:02 PM

I LOVE Mugwump Chronicles. Have you been following her Sonita stories? Some of them get me all misty eyed... but yes, her blog is immensely helpful and I like to go back and read her posts on collection and training when I ahve time... problem is, I'm not a trainer, and sometimes it's hard for me to visualize exactly what to do, but I have a really good trainer I'm working with, I'm just taking time off because I'm broke right now, and trying to do easy stuff in the meantime.

kshnooks · 11-09-2009, 03:02 PM

Yes! Her Sonita stories are great. I really liked when she was telling the story about her and her childhood friend who was abused. That made me teary for sure!

Red Wolf · 11-09-2009, 09:16 PM

Loose rein on a snaffle bit -

A snaffle works in two ways (for the most part) and it depends upon the physiology of the particular horse's mouth. Generally speaking, a snaffle is designed to work with constant contact, per se, on a long but not loose rein. The one exception to this is applied if the horse knows how to neck rein. The trick here is to teach the horse to neck rein (a whole subject unto itself) on a snaffle bit which is no big deal.

I generally use a hackamore or bosal first before I move to snaffle. I prefer a hackamore and sometimes a hackamore with a running martingale early on for teaching neck reining. In my experience and methods I find that about 99% of horses I have worked with figure out the indirect opposition rein (passive or active) this way and after a short while if used in combination with proper seat and leg. I like to get a horse going purely with seat and leg before moving to a snaffle, and I despise curb and tom thumb bits with a passion.

Case in point - I have a BLM mustang that would run right through a snaffle (that is, bolt blindly hell bent for leather). I resorted to a hackamore and a running martingale because the combination allows you to use the weight of the reins in the fashion of a curb hit on a double bridle with the ability to use the hackamore like a snaffle. And the running martingale let's you not worry too much about hand position (and the hackamore has some good breaking power if you know how to apply it correctly).

The problem with this particular horse was that the snaffle wasn't suited to her mouth - she has a high palate. This meant that when contact was placed on the snaffle in a fashion to inhibit forward motion, it shoved the corners of her mouth into her teeth, caused pain which resulted in rodeo action without more than a fractuib if an ounce of pressure.

The cure - suppling exercises (walk forward, halt, asked for a step backwards followed by the immediate release of any contact the instant the horse started to back). Then the transition from trot to halt, step back; followed by canter, halt, step back. But the key is to get the neck reining down after the horse understands direct opposition. You have to also remember to follow the horse's mount and keep contact (or lack of contact) consistant.

All in all, it's not that difficult. I make my dressage and hunter students learn the principles of "western" reining and my western reining student's learn the principles of dressage (particulary "campaign" riding).

jesterjigger · 11-10-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruffian

Being on the bit, comes from the rear, so it is your seat and legs that will drive her forward into your hand, most correctly they don't break at the poll but behind that (3rd vertebrae?) and the head may be vertical or nose slightly ahead of vertical but never behind it.

This statement is incorrect...it's true, most horses break at the 3rd vertebrae but that is the result of incorrect training and forcing the horse into a frame instead of encouraging the horse to reach for the bit while recycling the energy.

It's also important to remember that while you need to push the horse into the hands, the hands must be soft and receiving, able to recycle the energy and aid in rebalancing the horse. Too heavy and they will constrict the horse, shortening the frame instead of putting the horse on the bit correctly, and too little contact will allow the energy to "escape" and not give the horse a trustworthy support.

Also, if the horse is working correctly on the bit there will be some foam. You don't want gobs of it, but none is a sign of there beinga problem. Of course, most HUS horses I've seen don't really foam when "on the bit" for a HUS horse, so it's also relative to what your goals are when you want a horse to be on the bit.

Smilie · 11-16-2009, 08:27 PM

Certainly slobbering is not a pre requisit for having a horse on the bit. Just look at some winning HUS pictures. Slobbering in fact, in my disciplines (ApHC HUS and Western pl ) is a detriment. We want a horse to work with a quiet closed and soft mouth
A horse slobbers when he excessively mouths a bit, which is something I never want. A quite accepting mouth does not slobber. It is closed and very quiet and accepting
Therefore, slobbering has absolutely nothing to do with getting ahorse on the bit
You get ahorse on the bit by riding with more legs that hands, having him drive up from behind, round and softly just give his face to the bit barrier generated from the drive from behind. Thats what gets a horse on the bit, and not concentrating on his face and slobbering
It is the feel of when to drive with legs, hold with hands, and when to soften the hands. Don't see one purpose of the candy

jesterjigger · 11-17-2009, 10:41 AM

It depends on your definition of "on the bit"...HUS horses aren't on the bit in the traditional sense of the phrase, so that comparison doesn't really. On the bit for a HUS/WP horse is like a watered down version compared to dressage, which is why it's important to know what the OP wants to do with her horse.

Some dressage people feel that giving the horse sugar or a peppermint prior to mounting gets the horse chewing softly and relaxing, leading to the lipstick/foam you see on dressage horses (where even huge amounts of slobber is bad and a sign of tension, not a good thing).

But, horses won't just be on the bit either, it takes a lot of coordination between leg, seat, and hand aids, given at precise times with as little "force" as possible, the better you time the aids the less there will be to them.

I also wouldn't be working on vertical flexion as that's the easiest to do and the hardest to undo. If you work on riding the horse on the bit in the sense that you have steady, accepting contact with the horse's mouth at all times and ride lots of figures, like circles, serpentines, spiral circles, leg yields, changes of direction and keep the horse balanced through the turns you'll find that the horse will depend more on the support of the riders hands (not leaning, but finding comfort in being there) and will seek that support, even if you lengthen the reins slowly...the horse will stretch down, seeking that contact still.

Sharon Danielson · 11-17-2009, 11:13 AM

Ba-zillion's of books have been written about how to get a horse "on the bit." Being horse people, we all have our own theory.

Save your money, don't buy yet another bit. We all have a wall full of bits trying to get a -head-set- which is different than being on the bit. People think it is all about the head / mouth. Some horses don't get foamy in their mouth.

A young horses has to be given time and exercises to develop muscles for self carriage. When a horse is truly on the bit and in self carriage, you can feel their back come up and it is effortless to ride.

Horses have to be ridden from back to front.... not front to back. Keep working with your instructor. You have a longer path to travel especially since you are a green rider riding a green horse.

It takes T-I-M-E... no piece of equipment or a bigger bit is not going to replace hard work. Much good luck to you and your horse.

HickDressageRider · 11-21-2009, 01:59 AM

When she starts to give even a little bit give to her so she knows what she is doing is right and praise her... I work for and have been training with a dressage trainer for 14 years...

Smilie · 11-22-2009, 07:37 PM

Quite true Jesterjigger, that one must decide goals for a horse and what one actually means by 'on the bit' On the bit is way different from ahorse4 simlpy not accepting bit contact, as seems the case for this OP
It is also quite true that I never want my HUS horse on the bit to the degree of a dressage horse, as my main focus is western pl, an event I* actully want a horse to learn self carriage, independant of bit support
Thus, I want my horse to respect that bit barrier, frame up off of seat and leg alone, and able to hold himself in frame without looking for that bit support
When I then ride this horse HUS, I never want that tight hold of the face, with the horse 'captured' between legs and hands, but rather flowing foreward from behind, soft in my hands, with face on the verticle or nose slightly ahead, and never, never behind the verticle. A stock pleasure horse breaks both at the poll and= at the whithers, with a close accepting and quite mouth rewarded, be it ridden english or western. We also like quite tails-so I agree goals need to be addressed as to what is desired carreer wise for this horse
Things rewarded in one discipline can be a detriment in another

theoldbear · 11-22-2009, 08:41 PM

Am I missing something here? This horse is being trained western, right?
Is going to be ridden with a loose rein?
Then why would you want the horse "on the bit" at all?

Are we talking about collection? Control? Contact?

My three year old filly has never had a bit in her mouth. She's been ridden in a halter, a side pull, and a bosal. If I just use her around our place and a trail horse, that may be all she ever needs. She breaks nicely at the poll, and is picking up neck-reining.

The old "California reinsmen" used a bosal, a snaffle, and a half-breed on their way to a spade bit. The spade was used with a feather light touch.

My old horsemanship instructor (retired US Cavalry) used to have his students pull a single tail hair, and tie the reins to the bit with that.

We were riding gaited or "English" style, as the Cavalry did, and that was as much "on the bit" as we were taught. And those were the old US Cavalry bits, like the Walking Horse bits used today.

He despised a snaffle bit. Said more horses were ruined by snaffles, that all they were good for was making horses hard-mouthed. He said snaffles encouraged riders to balance "on their hands". He called them "work horse bits" because most of the draft horses were worked in snaffles.

His specialty was gaited horses, five gaited Saddlebreds and Tennessee Walking Horses, back in the days before pads and soring dominated the industry. He also wanted them to have light mouths, soft mouths, and would praise his good riders for playing the reins like harp strings.

I'm rambling, but back to my original question: do you really want a Western horse "on the bit"?

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11-05-2009, 04:06 PM
Amy Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Chino Valley, AZ Posts: 562	Getting a horse on the bit Okay, so here's the deal. I have a 6 year old mare, she was broke out at 4. I bought her at 5. She had me pretty intimidated with some green-horse temper-tantrum stuff (I'm green too, I know, I know) so the past year was basically just groundwork, and getting me confident enough to trail ride. I recently had a lady come put 30 days on her- she is now going very well in the arena at a walk-jog, moving off the leg, we are working on suppling, turning on the haunches, etc. When I have some more money, I'm going to have her out for another 30 days to get her loping. One thing the trainer mentioned is that she didn't seem too happy in the bit I was using, that she will respond, but she is stiff and not really "on" the bit. She doesn't really get a foamy mouth, she will gape her jaws a bit. Teeth got floated a year ago, and she's due to get checked again, but I haven't noticed any eating issues. For now, I have put her in a sweet-iron loose ring snaffle, and a bridle with a cavesson, per the trainers recommendation. Her other hint was to give a peppermint as I am putting the bridle on. She knows how to flex both ways with rein pressure, and we are starting verticle flexion now- she will drop her nose at a stop, but needs practice keeping it there. Does anyone else have any hints or ideas on how to get her on the bit better? My old guy gets on the bit great, gets all slobbery and listens, but he's also been ridden English, and this mare is being trained Western, on a loose rein. Thanks.

11-05-2009, 04:27 PM
Horselady44 Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 2,437	A good exercise is to lunge them at a WALK with the reins in one hand. Doing lots of turns. Also, take the reins and back her up while your on the ground. Have you tried switching bits at all with her? __________________ A happy horse equals a happy rider!

11-05-2009, 05:36 PM
visionquest Weanling Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Harrodsburg, KY Posts: 464	You could also ride along a fence and reverse direction into the fence releasing the pressure of the bit as soon as your horse has committed to the turn. I have also worked on doing many many changes of gait, walk/stop/walk, walk trot/walk, walk/stop/back a step and walk again. Your mare needs to shift her weight to her rearend.

11-05-2009, 05:39 PM
Slim Pikkens Seasoned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,053	Not all horses slobber or get foamy even with a sweet iron mouth. The moment she drops her poll, release the reins as tho your fingers were burned. She may raise her head again after only a few seconds but ask her again. Do this many times until she realizes when she drops her poll you release the rein pressure. That is her reward.

11-05-2009, 08:55 PM
Amy Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Chino Valley, AZ Posts: 562	Thanks for the thoughts. I have lunged her with a bit in the mouth, thinking about getting a surcingle and long-lining... Anyone has experience using long lines to get to horse on the bit? The trainer I'm using long-lined her, and she immediatly broke at the poll and carried her head vertically. I just changed her from a double jointed argentine snaffle type bit back to the ring snaffle. Trainer actually suggested getting a D-ring with rollers... Once again, I'm broke right now, but I figured the ring snaffle was closer the what she suggested than the shanked bit I was using. (The bit I was ising also had a snaffle ring, but I figured the simpler, the better). I do a lot of flexing exercises, and I do drop the reins as soon as she gives. How do you tell a horse is really on the bit if they aren't slobbery? I can tell Lic is still resisting at times, today we were doing circles at the jog and - had to reinforce the leg cue with an inside rein to keep her from drifting.... I know I wasn't yanking or pulling too hard, but she was still gaping her mouth. Thanks for all the ideas.

11-06-2009, 10:31 AM
jesterjigger Halter broke Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: OH now, FL in April Posts: 156	It depends on what you want to do with the horse...what the best way is to get it on the bit. One thing that works well with my mare (we do dressage) is to "hold" with the outside rein and pulsate the inside rein through slight finger tensing and untensing while pushing the horse into the outside rein with the inside leg. Relax after three soft pulsations and if you didn't get a response (or as much of a response as you were looking for) do it again, and again, and again. When the horse gives then immediately soften as a reward, but don't throw away the reins, just relax your fingers/arms for a second and you can even verbally praise the horse. The key is to half halt as often as necessary to keep the horse accepting of the bit and balanced. In the beginning I had to half halt my mare almost constantly until she built the muscles needed to maintain the frame and balance I was asking for, then I was able to judge when to half halt based on minute cues from her body, anticipating when she was going to break or come over the bit or get unbalanced and half halting before it was a huge deal.

11-06-2009, 12:15 PM
kshnooks Started Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 2,389	I'm wondering if it could be also that she is young, green with only 30 days training, and just doesn't have the fitness built up yet to do what you are asking? The half halts is a good method, so is doing lots of transition work. You want to work towards getting the horse to be balanced and using their rear. When they are doing this they will naturally drop their heads and round their back instead of being forced into a fake "frame". Try some hill work too, to work on getting her rear powering under her but not letting her get strung out. One of the horses I ride takes about 5 minutes to really get her going and on the bit. We start off with some bending in both directions and walk/trot/halt transitions. And making sure she is listening to my leg so that I can really push her into my hand. With her too, she doesn't slobber. But when she's really working correctly, she'll flap her lower lip as we trot around. Thats how I know! LOL

11-06-2009, 12:35 PM
ruffian Long Yearling Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,161	As was mentioned, not all horses slobber when working on the bit Being on the bit, comes from the rear, so it is your seat and legs that will drive her forward into your hand, most correctly they don't break at the poll but behind that (3rd vertebrae?) and the head may be vertical or nose slightly ahead of vertical but never behind it. Focus on getting her hind end under you and engaged, so that she is carrying the weight, not just pushing with her hind end. You will know the difference when you start to feel it, they get a bit of a swinging feel to them and get a lot lighter to ride. At her stage of training full contact is not going to happen all the time (and only in a straight pull bit, never a shanked) I like the copper and roller mouth, it gives them something to play with. If you focus just on head set you will be riding her from front to back, instead of back to front which is what you need for proper collection and carriage. Lots of transitions, walk -trot-walk-halt, circles where you use your inside leg to push to contact with your outside hand, spirals in and out. It takes a while for a young horse to develop the muscles and balance to carry themselves (and you!) in a proper frame so keep the sessions short with lots of walk breaks on a long rein. __________________ There is something about the outside of a Horse that\'s good for the inside of a man (Will Rogers)

11-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Amy Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Chino Valley, AZ Posts: 562	Thanks everyone for the advice. I can definitely tell the difference from when she is carrying her weight on the hind vs. on the fore... on the fore feels like riding a bulldozer. This usually happens out on the trail when she gets freaked out and starts hollowing out on me, either going into the "death trot" or a really disjointed canter. She has been broke for over 2 years, but I think it's the lack of consistency that is making her still "green." She is getting really good about leg cues, I will definitely try to spiral in/spiral out exercise. We are mostly riding her on a loose rein and using seat cues, and reinforcing with reins only if needed, so I guess the etire definition of "on the bit" is probably different from what it would be on an English horse ridden with direct contact, right? Thanks again.

11-06-2009, 01:12 PM
kshnooks Started Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 2,389	well...I think generally speaking the concept is the same. You want your horse collected, balanced and in self carriage. I love this woman's blog http://mugwumpchronicles.blogspot.co...bel/collection If you pull up the link, she has some good exercises to work on collection. And she was/is a cutting horse trainer, but many of her methods are similar to dressage. Good luck, I think this was one of the hardest things for me to learn but definitely the most benefical. And if you can feel it and know what its supposed to be, you're already on the right track!

11-09-2009, 01:02 PM
Amy Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Chino Valley, AZ Posts: 562	I LOVE Mugwump Chronicles. Have you been following her Sonita stories? Some of them get me all misty eyed... but yes, her blog is immensely helpful and I like to go back and read her posts on collection and training when I ahve time... problem is, I'm not a trainer, and sometimes it's hard for me to visualize exactly what to do, but I have a really good trainer I'm working with, I'm just taking time off because I'm broke right now, and trying to do easy stuff in the meantime.

11-09-2009, 03:02 PM
kshnooks Started Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 2,389	Yes! Her Sonita stories are great. I really liked when she was telling the story about her and her childhood friend who was abused. That made me teary for sure!

11-09-2009, 09:16 PM
Red Wolf Newborn Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tryon, North Carolina Posts: 4	Loose rein on a snaffle bit - A snaffle works in two ways (for the most part) and it depends upon the physiology of the particular horse's mouth. Generally speaking, a snaffle is designed to work with constant contact, per se, on a long but not loose rein. The one exception to this is applied if the horse knows how to neck rein. The trick here is to teach the horse to neck rein (a whole subject unto itself) on a snaffle bit which is no big deal. I generally use a hackamore or bosal first before I move to snaffle. I prefer a hackamore and sometimes a hackamore with a running martingale early on for teaching neck reining. In my experience and methods I find that about 99% of horses I have worked with figure out the indirect opposition rein (passive or active) this way and after a short while if used in combination with proper seat and leg. I like to get a horse going purely with seat and leg before moving to a snaffle, and I despise curb and tom thumb bits with a passion. Case in point - I have a BLM mustang that would run right through a snaffle (that is, bolt blindly hell bent for leather). I resorted to a hackamore and a running martingale because the combination allows you to use the weight of the reins in the fashion of a curb hit on a double bridle with the ability to use the hackamore like a snaffle. And the running martingale let's you not worry too much about hand position (and the hackamore has some good breaking power if you know how to apply it correctly). The problem with this particular horse was that the snaffle wasn't suited to her mouth - she has a high palate. This meant that when contact was placed on the snaffle in a fashion to inhibit forward motion, it shoved the corners of her mouth into her teeth, caused pain which resulted in rodeo action without more than a fractuib if an ounce of pressure. The cure - suppling exercises (walk forward, halt, asked for a step backwards followed by the immediate release of any contact the instant the horse started to back). Then the transition from trot to halt, step back; followed by canter, halt, step back. But the key is to get the neck reining down after the horse understands direct opposition. You have to also remember to follow the horse's mount and keep contact (or lack of contact) consistant. All in all, it's not that difficult. I make my dressage and hunter students learn the principles of "western" reining and my western reining student's learn the principles of dressage (particulary "campaign" riding). __________________ Remember these two things and you will always be safe: Never leave your mount involuntarily and always pass on the same side of the the tree as your horse.

11-16-2009, 08:27 PM
Smilie Weanling Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alberta canada Posts: 206	Certainly slobbering is not a pre requisit for having a horse on the bit. Just look at some winning HUS pictures. Slobbering in fact, in my disciplines (ApHC HUS and Western pl ) is a detriment. We want a horse to work with a quiet closed and soft mouth A horse slobbers when he excessively mouths a bit, which is something I never want. A quite accepting mouth does not slobber. It is closed and very quiet and accepting Therefore, slobbering has absolutely nothing to do with getting ahorse on the bit You get ahorse on the bit by riding with more legs that hands, having him drive up from behind, round and softly just give his face to the bit barrier generated from the drive from behind. Thats what gets a horse on the bit, and not concentrating on his face and slobbering It is the feel of when to drive with legs, hold with hands, and when to soften the hands. Don't see one purpose of the candy __________________ Great horses are born, not made, we only put on the refinement[/IMG]

11-17-2009, 10:41 AM
jesterjigger Halter broke Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: OH now, FL in April Posts: 156	It depends on your definition of "on the bit"...HUS horses aren't on the bit in the traditional sense of the phrase, so that comparison doesn't really. On the bit for a HUS/WP horse is like a watered down version compared to dressage, which is why it's important to know what the OP wants to do with her horse. Some dressage people feel that giving the horse sugar or a peppermint prior to mounting gets the horse chewing softly and relaxing, leading to the lipstick/foam you see on dressage horses (where even huge amounts of slobber is bad and a sign of tension, not a good thing). But, horses won't just be on the bit either, it takes a lot of coordination between leg, seat, and hand aids, given at precise times with as little "force" as possible, the better you time the aids the less there will be to them. I also wouldn't be working on vertical flexion as that's the easiest to do and the hardest to undo. If you work on riding the horse on the bit in the sense that you have steady, accepting contact with the horse's mouth at all times and ride lots of figures, like circles, serpentines, spiral circles, leg yields, changes of direction and keep the horse balanced through the turns you'll find that the horse will depend more on the support of the riders hands (not leaning, but finding comfort in being there) and will seek that support, even if you lengthen the reins slowly...the horse will stretch down, seeking that contact still.

11-17-2009, 11:13 AM
Sharon Danielson Halter broke Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: WA. State Posts: 168	Ba-zillion's of books have been written about how to get a horse "on the bit." Being horse people, we all have our own theory. Save your money, don't buy yet another bit. We all have a wall full of bits trying to get a -head-set- which is different than being on the bit. People think it is all about the head / mouth. Some horses don't get foamy in their mouth. A young horses has to be given time and exercises to develop muscles for self carriage. When a horse is truly on the bit and in self carriage, you can feel their back come up and it is effortless to ride. Horses have to be ridden from back to front.... not front to back. Keep working with your instructor. You have a longer path to travel especially since you are a green rider riding a green horse. It takes T-I-M-E... no piece of equipment or a bigger bit is not going to replace hard work. Much good luck to you and your horse. __________________ When you're young and you fall off a horse, you may break something. When you're my age, you splatter. ~Roy Rogers

11-21-2009, 01:59 AM
HickDressageRider Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Arroyo Grande Posts: 162	When she starts to give even a little bit give to her so she knows what she is doing is right and praise her... I work for and have been training with a dressage trainer for 14 years... __________________ It is not enough for a man to know how to ride for he must know how to fall

11-22-2009, 07:37 PM
Smilie Weanling Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alberta canada Posts: 206	Quite true Jesterjigger, that one must decide goals for a horse and what one actually means by 'on the bit' On the bit is way different from ahorse4 simlpy not accepting bit contact, as seems the case for this OP It is also quite true that I never want my HUS horse on the bit to the degree of a dressage horse, as my main focus is western pl, an event I* actully want a horse to learn self carriage, independant of bit support Thus, I want my horse to respect that bit barrier, frame up off of seat and leg alone, and able to hold himself in frame without looking for that bit support When I then ride this horse HUS, I never want that tight hold of the face, with the horse 'captured' between legs and hands, but rather flowing foreward from behind, soft in my hands, with face on the verticle or nose slightly ahead, and never, never behind the verticle. A stock pleasure horse breaks both at the poll and= at the whithers, with a close accepting and quite mouth rewarded, be it ridden english or western. We also like quite tails-so I agree goals need to be addressed as to what is desired carreer wise for this horse Things rewarded in one discipline can be a detriment in another __________________ Great horses are born, not made, we only put on the refinement[/IMG]

11-22-2009, 08:41 PM
theoldbear Yearling Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Arcadia, Florida Posts: 772	Am I missing something here? This horse is being trained western, right? Is going to be ridden with a loose rein? Then why would you want the horse "on the bit" at all? Are we talking about collection? Control? Contact? My three year old filly has never had a bit in her mouth. She's been ridden in a halter, a side pull, and a bosal. If I just use her around our place and a trail horse, that may be all she ever needs. She breaks nicely at the poll, and is picking up neck-reining. The old "California reinsmen" used a bosal, a snaffle, and a half-breed on their way to a spade bit. The spade was used with a feather light touch. My old horsemanship instructor (retired US Cavalry) used to have his students pull a single tail hair, and tie the reins to the bit with that. We were riding gaited or "English" style, as the Cavalry did, and that was as much "on the bit" as we were taught. And those were the old US Cavalry bits, like the Walking Horse bits used today. He despised a snaffle bit. Said more horses were ruined by snaffles, that all they were good for was making horses hard-mouthed. He said snaffles encouraged riders to balance "on their hands". He called them "work horse bits" because most of the draft horses were worked in snaffles. His specialty was gaited horses, five gaited Saddlebreds and Tennessee Walking Horses, back in the days before pads and soring dominated the industry. He also wanted them to have light mouths, soft mouths, and would praise his good riders for playing the reins like harp strings. I'm rambling, but back to my original question: do you really want a Western horse "on the bit"?