I found Lena's major flaw...UPDATE Rest of story...

Cait · 11-03-2009, 05:36 PM

I go out to work Lena tonight and she was very good. She let me catch her, did well leading, didn't put up to much of a fuss when working on respect, and even seemed to actually know how to lunge (I know that most horses should do this, but she had nothing done with her for 3 years soo...we are starting from scratch

). She was great. She got a little panicky on the cross ties (barn owner said she was getting mad, but I thought panicked) but other than that, perfect.

Apparently she was sucking up from what happened the night before...

The barn farrier was coming out, and Lena desperately needed hers done, but since I was going to be in class, the barn owner said that she would hold her for me. I warned the barn owner that she isn't the best at standing and likes to dance and can be picky about picking up her feet.

Lena apparently did more than that. She kept rearing up and got to the point where she was charging people. Full out, ears back, tail switching, teeth bared charging. I was SHOCKED to hear this. She never ever once tried to charge me. Even when we are working on respect. They were not able to do her feet to say the least.

So what can I do to work on her with this? I've been touching her legs all over and knew that she wasn't perfect about it but I was planning on working with her. But to the point where a full grown horse is charging and rearing? Is there a safe way to work on this?

Also, the barn owner thought a lot of it was to do with respect. I have been using clinton anderson/parelli methods (moving horses feet), and like I said she has been doing good. There is improvement everytime we do it. Is there anything else that I can do that has worked well for you guys?

Thanks!

MustangKatie · 11-03-2009, 05:44 PM

I've seen this before, it could be possible that she dosn't trust these people and felt like she was being threatend by them and since she was in a smaller area and could not flee she had to defend herself.... I've worked with a few horses that have had completly opposite behavior when I was not there..

So it could have been 1. mom's not here so i'm not putting up with this or 2. I don't trust these people and i'm going to fight back.

(just saying that COULD be a possibility, but it could be other things as well)

I don't have any advice to offer and hope that others can help you...

Horselady44 · 11-03-2009, 05:50 PM

Didnt you just bring her to the trainers though? why not have him/her work with her on this....they should know how to deal with this and that way no one gets hurt

If you do have to do this yourself heres my suggestion,
Have a partner when you mess with her feet. Have one person at her head so they can correct her if she makes the slightest movement/aggressive behavior. If you have to, have a bridle on her or a stud chain(depending on how bad the behavior is) to correct her. Then have someone just pick up her foot just for a split second. Then reward and praise her for standing nice. Then go back and pick it up again for 5 seconds...then 10...then 15....rewarding and praising her when she stands nice and giving her a correction when she acts aggressive/dances around. Make sure she knows that the aggressive behavior is NOT acceptable! If she rears, correct her good by pulling her back down and then back her a$$ up 20 feet or so. Then bring her back and go back to what you were doing. Make her think pick up her feet is fun. Give her a treat for picking them up and holding them up for you. Work slowly with her as like you said...this is her weak spot and she needs work with it. Its not going to happen over night.
Another thing you can do is use a cotton lead rope and loop it around her leg and use it to pick it up(I have a bad back and I use this method...as my back cannot handle being bent over like that over and over) Its the same concept pick up for a split second and let it back down and reward her...then 10 seconds...15...20...30. Then you can start working on tapping her foot with the hoof pick and so forth. Make picking them up fun for her...and being naughty...well make that hell for her. Def us a partner when working on the feet though...as you cant pick them up and correct her at the same time

JMO

ahabarabs · 11-03-2009, 05:59 PM

There was probably some disciplining going on that provoked the rearing/striking etc. before they gave up...... ( not that she does not need disciplined, but it needs done with knowledge, and time, which most farriers do not have the time/patience/extra $ for schooling one ) she needs to be really good with you handling/picking up/keeping lifted for minute or two at a time/you deciding when to put down foot/and even "stretching" out hind legs similar to how your farrier will hold, and front legs in between yours, using caution of course, only when you, or anyone ( bo perhaps ) can get to this point I would not have farrier back out, maybe b.o. can help out with her, as it would be much easier to be able to show/correct in person with things like this.

Cait · 11-03-2009, 06:19 PM

Double post...sorry guys!

Cait · 11-03-2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustangKatie

So it could have been 1. mom's not here so i'm not putting up with this or 2. I don't trust these people and i'm going to fight back.

I wondered this myself. I am her 5th home in 4 years (who knows how many before that), so she has been passed around a lot and never really bonded with a person (none of these people did anything with her). I wondered if she maybe didn't trust them either. Because like I said, she always danced with me there, but NEVER charged or reared.

Horselady- I would love to be able to say that I brought Lena to the trainer's and all my problems will be solved, but no, it was just a boarding barn. The lady does train for an extra fee, but I don't have the money for that right now...sad face...but hopefully I will soon. Especially if this keeps up.

Horselady44 · 11-03-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cait

Horselady- I would love to be able to say that I brought Lena to the trainer's and all my problems will be solved, but no, it was just a boarding barn. The lady does train for an extra fee, but I don't have the money for that right now...sad face...but hopefully I will soon. Especially if this keeps up.

Gottcha

i thought it was you that said you were bringing her to a trainer...but...it could have been anyone on here

I get mixed up once in awhile...but do that exersize I mentioned. It will help alot. And work with her feet as much as possible...def every day if at all possible. Just messing with those feet every day will help her and the farrier out ALOT....also, has she been around alot of guys? Is the farrier a guy?...some horses who have had a bad experience with a guy/girl will hold a grudge against all. I had a gelding that was like that with guys. Just a idea?

Range · 11-03-2009, 07:19 PM

I would find out all the steps leading up to the behavior. Seriously. There may be fear involved...you know, fight or flight? She couldn't fly so she fought. It's hard to know when you weren't there to see.

But, I had a mare, OTTB. Fought the farrier like a crazy thing. Really, truly...rearing, kicking, the whole 9 yards. I did my best with her. Thought she would be fine each time because I worked with her constantly. Even used an old rasp and such. She was always okay with me. When I got a new farrier, he approached without apron and without ball cap and was able to shoe her fronts with little or no reaction. She associated that apron with something terrible going to happen.

Then, there was Romeo. First time putting shoes on him...waaaaaay back. Well, the farrier came highly recommended, but he was slowish. I was holding. Romeo has always been a really good boy, but as soon as this guy got one nail in...Romeo was rearing, striking, pulling his foot away (he'd NEVER acted like that). Took that shoe off a number of times. Farrier told me it was lack of respect. Well, about 45 minutes after trying to get a second nail into the shoe, I walked him out and looked at the foot. He'd hot nailed him and drawn blood. BLOOD on the foot! Romeo was hurting and he was mad and he wasn't going to take it. He was letting me know the only way he could. I sent that man packing.

So, without having been there to "read" her, you may never know if it was lack of respect, fear, or pain.

I would continue to work with her and then see how the next appointment goes. Be sure to be there so you can "read" her.

NoniMe · 11-04-2009, 07:48 AM

In addition to the great advice Range and Horselady44 gave, I'd do some exercises with her that involve other people, too.

Have someone fiddle with her feet while you hold her. Let her see you there, and learn that it's all right to have others there too. Then progress to having someone else hold her, and a third person fiddle with her feet (a different one), while you put distance between yourself and them. And finally, have a 'practice' session with two other people (a holder and a fiddler), and you "disappear"...but watch to see behavior and timing.

That will not only teach her that it's all right..."they" have "your" permission, but also will show you the progression of behavior, and hopefully you'll be able to spot the starting point and come up with a strategy for handling it.

Tango was horrible about his feet. The method I used was the above one...it took a long while, but now I know I can schedule the farrier, have someone hold him, and get his feet done...all while I'm away. Like I said, it took a while, but it is worth it. And yes, a lot of it is just time.

Best-
Noni

beckyp · 11-04-2009, 04:53 PM

Since I don't know the farrier,I can't say,but we had a pony mare that was a pain in the butt whenever she got her feet worked on,and only one time did she rear and throw herself down. The farrier tried to fight her and she reacted. The next time we used a different guy and he had no problems with her,was very patient and calm. She lets us pick up her feet and doesn't cause any problems.

Slim Pikkens · 11-04-2009, 07:50 PM

If he was working her in cross ties or inside the barn the best bet is to have someone hold her outside to remove any feelings of claustrophobia she might have. Some farriers will get into a fight with a horse and leave quite an impression on the horse. When a horse has had more than a few owners you just don't know it's history. Ask the farrier for an old rasp and as you work with her, mimic what he does when he trims. I don't like cross ties as I've known of horses to flip over backwards and occur withers and/or skull fractures.

Cait · 11-04-2009, 09:05 PM

Well I was able to sit down and talk with the owner tonight and got the rest of the story. The farrier insisted on doing Lena in her stall, where I'm guessing she most likely felt threatened and cornered. Especially since it was people she did not know...sigh...the barn owner wanted to do them outside because she thought that is where I had done them (She was correct) but the farrier refused.

I had my boyfriend go out and hold her tonight, while I worked with her feet and did the exercises that you guys told me to do (Thanks by the way!). She was a little reluctant but she did it for me. Her back feet definitely need work as when I pulled on them with the rope, she tried to kick out a few times. But she did pretty dang good.

So now I guess my question is, should I have the same farrier come out? Or should I get someone else whom she doesn't have a bad experience with? Not only that, but because her hooves hadn't been trimmed in so long, they were splayed out and long. My other farrier for Stella says with those kind of hooves you have to trim a little at a time because the rest of the inside of the hoof has gotten long also. Well, this farrier just went ahead and cut em short (By them I mean the one he managed to kind of get done). Does this seem right to you guys?

Range · 11-05-2009, 07:32 AM

I won't question a farrier as I'm not there to see the feet.

But, leaving her with one foot done and the others not is not healthy. So, if you have to get someone else to come finish her up, that would tell you a bit.

dunamovin · 11-05-2009, 08:18 AM

I would use the farrier that wants to trim a little bit each time. He sounds like he'll have more patience with her.

Cait · 11-05-2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Range

But, leaving her with one foot done and the others not is not healthy. So, if you have to get someone else to come finish her up, that would tell you a bit.

That's what I figured so I am having Stella's farrier come out tomorrow morning. I explained what happened and he said we will definitely work something out and he is no prepared for her. Poor guy, had Stella the horse from hell last week, and now he gets to do Lena. He says we'll just take our time, do what we can without getting her all worked up. I'm going to go out again tonight and work with her feet so hopefully everything goes well tomorrow. Wish us luck!

I'm sure Lena is not going to be a happy camper by the time the week is over. Bad experience Monday, vet for her sarcoid today, and farrier again tomorrow. Poor gal.

And mods, this has turned into a hoof forum so if you want to move it, feel free!

Horselady44 · 11-09-2009, 09:23 PM

Cait- Didnt you have Lena's feet done now? She did good didnt she...or was I reading someone elses thread? I thought you said her farrier visit went good in one of your threads

But, if not...you said in this thread you were having her done on the 6th...so how did she do?

Cait · 11-10-2009, 08:23 PM

Oops! I forgot to update this thread...

Yes, she did get her feet done and she did VERY well. Not perfect by any means, but she never reared, kicked out, or charged. She stood like a good little girl. The only problem she had was she was not to fond of the farrier going by her back end so started to pivot, but we got that stopped and she did great. I was soooo happy.

After the last farrier, everyone thought that I had a crazy horse because she lashed out on them. I know I don't have a crazy horse and some of the boarders and barn owner were there and saw her get her feet get done and I just wanted to be like "HA! She isn't crazy! So there!" But I behaved and didn't say anything

...

11-03-2009, 05:36 PM
Cait Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 151	I found Lena's major flaw...UPDATE Rest of story... I go out to work Lena tonight and she was very good. She let me catch her, did well leading, didn't put up to much of a fuss when working on respect, and even seemed to actually know how to lunge (I know that most horses should do this, but she had nothing done with her for 3 years soo...we are starting from scratch ). She was great. She got a little panicky on the cross ties (barn owner said she was getting mad, but I thought panicked) but other than that, perfect. Apparently she was sucking up from what happened the night before... The barn farrier was coming out, and Lena desperately needed hers done, but since I was going to be in class, the barn owner said that she would hold her for me. I warned the barn owner that she isn't the best at standing and likes to dance and can be picky about picking up her feet. Lena apparently did more than that. She kept rearing up and got to the point where she was charging people. Full out, ears back, tail switching, teeth bared charging. I was SHOCKED to hear this. She never ever once tried to charge me. Even when we are working on respect. They were not able to do her feet to say the least. So what can I do to work on her with this? I've been touching her legs all over and knew that she wasn't perfect about it but I was planning on working with her. But to the point where a full grown horse is charging and rearing? Is there a safe way to work on this? Also, the barn owner thought a lot of it was to do with respect. I have been using clinton anderson/parelli methods (moving horses feet), and like I said she has been doing good. There is improvement everytime we do it. Is there anything else that I can do that has worked well for you guys? Thanks! __________________ Proud owner of: Molly's Way "Stella"- 6 year old Thoroughbred Lena- 7 year old Thoroughbred Last edited by Cait : 11-04-2009 at 09:06 PM.

11-03-2009, 05:44 PM
MustangKatie Yearling Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southern WI, Now Olympia/Lacey WA Posts: 529	I've seen this before, it could be possible that she dosn't trust these people and felt like she was being threatend by them and since she was in a smaller area and could not flee she had to defend herself.... I've worked with a few horses that have had completly opposite behavior when I was not there.. So it could have been 1. mom's not here so i'm not putting up with this or 2. I don't trust these people and i'm going to fight back. (just saying that COULD be a possibility, but it could be other things as well) I don't have any advice to offer and hope that others can help you... __________________ - My horse is my hero, because she has saved me from many evils in the world. - "Those who do can't explain, those who don't will never understand" ~from my FFA shirt

11-03-2009, 05:50 PM
Horselady44 Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 2,437	Didnt you just bring her to the trainers though? why not have him/her work with her on this....they should know how to deal with this and that way no one gets hurt If you do have to do this yourself heres my suggestion, Have a partner when you mess with her feet. Have one person at her head so they can correct her if she makes the slightest movement/aggressive behavior. If you have to, have a bridle on her or a stud chain(depending on how bad the behavior is) to correct her. Then have someone just pick up her foot just for a split second. Then reward and praise her for standing nice. Then go back and pick it up again for 5 seconds...then 10...then 15....rewarding and praising her when she stands nice and giving her a correction when she acts aggressive/dances around. Make sure she knows that the aggressive behavior is NOT acceptable! If she rears, correct her good by pulling her back down and then back her a$$ up 20 feet or so. Then bring her back and go back to what you were doing. Make her think pick up her feet is fun. Give her a treat for picking them up and holding them up for you. Work slowly with her as like you said...this is her weak spot and she needs work with it. Its not going to happen over night. Another thing you can do is use a cotton lead rope and loop it around her leg and use it to pick it up(I have a bad back and I use this method...as my back cannot handle being bent over like that over and over) Its the same concept pick up for a split second and let it back down and reward her...then 10 seconds...15...20...30. Then you can start working on tapping her foot with the hoof pick and so forth. Make picking them up fun for her...and being naughty...well make that hell for her. Def us a partner when working on the feet though...as you cant pick them up and correct her at the same time JMO __________________ A happy horse equals a happy rider!

11-03-2009, 05:59 PM
ahabarabs Weanling Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: indianapolis, indiana Posts: 487	There was probably some disciplining going on that provoked the rearing/striking etc. before they gave up...... ( not that she does not need disciplined, but it needs done with knowledge, and time, which most farriers do not have the time/patience/extra $ for schooling one ) she needs to be really good with you handling/picking up/keeping lifted for minute or two at a time/you deciding when to put down foot/and even "stretching" out hind legs similar to how your farrier will hold, and front legs in between yours, using caution of course, only when you, or anyone ( bo perhaps ) can get to this point I would not have farrier back out, maybe b.o. can help out with her, as it would be much easier to be able to show/correct in person with things like this. Last edited by ahabarabs : 11-03-2009 at 06:03 PM.

11-03-2009, 06:19 PM
Cait Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 151	Double post...sorry guys! __________________ Proud owner of: Molly's Way "Stella"- 6 year old Thoroughbred Lena- 7 year old Thoroughbred Last edited by Cait : 11-03-2009 at 06:21 PM.

11-03-2009, 07:19 PM
Range Kid Safe Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Back of Beyond Posts: 6,744	I would find out all the steps leading up to the behavior. Seriously. There may be fear involved...you know, fight or flight? She couldn't fly so she fought. It's hard to know when you weren't there to see. But, I had a mare, OTTB. Fought the farrier like a crazy thing. Really, truly...rearing, kicking, the whole 9 yards. I did my best with her. Thought she would be fine each time because I worked with her constantly. Even used an old rasp and such. She was always okay with me. When I got a new farrier, he approached without apron and without ball cap and was able to shoe her fronts with little or no reaction. She associated that apron with something terrible going to happen. Then, there was Romeo. First time putting shoes on him...waaaaaay back. Well, the farrier came highly recommended, but he was slowish. I was holding. Romeo has always been a really good boy, but as soon as this guy got one nail in...Romeo was rearing, striking, pulling his foot away (he'd NEVER acted like that). Took that shoe off a number of times. Farrier told me it was lack of respect. Well, about 45 minutes after trying to get a second nail into the shoe, I walked him out and looked at the foot. He'd hot nailed him and drawn blood. BLOOD on the foot! Romeo was hurting and he was mad and he wasn't going to take it. He was letting me know the only way he could. I sent that man packing. So, without having been there to "read" her, you may never know if it was lack of respect, fear, or pain. I would continue to work with her and then see how the next appointment goes. Be sure to be there so you can "read" her. __________________ "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it all... you just might get it all, and then some you don't want." Chris Daughtery

11-04-2009, 07:48 AM
NoniMe Seasoned Join Date: May 2007 Location: Southern California Posts: 4,756	In addition to the great advice Range and Horselady44 gave, I'd do some exercises with her that involve other people, too. Have someone fiddle with her feet while you hold her. Let her see you there, and learn that it's all right to have others there too. Then progress to having someone else hold her, and a third person fiddle with her feet (a different one), while you put distance between yourself and them. And finally, have a 'practice' session with two other people (a holder and a fiddler), and you "disappear"...but watch to see behavior and timing. That will not only teach her that it's all right..."they" have "your" permission, but also will show you the progression of behavior, and hopefully you'll be able to spot the starting point and come up with a strategy for handling it. Tango was horrible about his feet. The method I used was the above one...it took a long while, but now I know I can schedule the farrier, have someone hold him, and get his feet done...all while I'm away. Like I said, it took a while, but it is worth it. And yes, a lot of it is just time. Best- Noni __________________ Apparently, I have a warped sense of humor. "Who knew?"

11-04-2009, 04:53 PM
beckyp Seasoned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: utica,ky Posts: 4,471	Since I don't know the farrier,I can't say,but we had a pony mare that was a pain in the butt whenever she got her feet worked on,and only one time did she rear and throw herself down. The farrier tried to fight her and she reacted. The next time we used a different guy and he had no problems with her,was very patient and calm. She lets us pick up her feet and doesn't cause any problems. __________________ If not at home try the barn.

11-04-2009, 07:50 PM
Slim Pikkens Seasoned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,055	If he was working her in cross ties or inside the barn the best bet is to have someone hold her outside to remove any feelings of claustrophobia she might have. Some farriers will get into a fight with a horse and leave quite an impression on the horse. When a horse has had more than a few owners you just don't know it's history. Ask the farrier for an old rasp and as you work with her, mimic what he does when he trims. I don't like cross ties as I've known of horses to flip over backwards and occur withers and/or skull fractures.

11-04-2009, 09:05 PM
Cait Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 151	Well I was able to sit down and talk with the owner tonight and got the rest of the story. The farrier insisted on doing Lena in her stall, where I'm guessing she most likely felt threatened and cornered. Especially since it was people she did not know...sigh...the barn owner wanted to do them outside because she thought that is where I had done them (She was correct) but the farrier refused. I had my boyfriend go out and hold her tonight, while I worked with her feet and did the exercises that you guys told me to do (Thanks by the way!). She was a little reluctant but she did it for me. Her back feet definitely need work as when I pulled on them with the rope, she tried to kick out a few times. But she did pretty dang good. So now I guess my question is, should I have the same farrier come out? Or should I get someone else whom she doesn't have a bad experience with? Not only that, but because her hooves hadn't been trimmed in so long, they were splayed out and long. My other farrier for Stella says with those kind of hooves you have to trim a little at a time because the rest of the inside of the hoof has gotten long also. Well, this farrier just went ahead and cut em short (By them I mean the one he managed to kind of get done). Does this seem right to you guys? __________________ Proud owner of: Molly's Way "Stella"- 6 year old Thoroughbred Lena- 7 year old Thoroughbred

11-05-2009, 07:32 AM
Range Kid Safe Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Back of Beyond Posts: 6,744	I won't question a farrier as I'm not there to see the feet. But, leaving her with one foot done and the others not is not healthy. So, if you have to get someone else to come finish her up, that would tell you a bit. __________________ "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it all... you just might get it all, and then some you don't want." Chris Daughtery

11-05-2009, 08:18 AM
dunamovin Halter broke Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: where the blacktop ends Posts: 194	I would use the farrier that wants to trim a little bit each time. He sounds like he'll have more patience with her.

11-09-2009, 09:23 PM
Horselady44 Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 2,437	Cait- Didnt you have Lena's feet done now? She did good didnt she...or was I reading someone elses thread? I thought you said her farrier visit went good in one of your threads But, if not...you said in this thread you were having her done on the 6th...so how did she do? __________________ A happy horse equals a happy rider!

11-10-2009, 08:23 PM
Cait Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 151	Oops! I forgot to update this thread... Yes, she did get her feet done and she did VERY well. Not perfect by any means, but she never reared, kicked out, or charged. She stood like a good little girl. The only problem she had was she was not to fond of the farrier going by her back end so started to pivot, but we got that stopped and she did great. I was soooo happy. After the last farrier, everyone thought that I had a crazy horse because she lashed out on them. I know I don't have a crazy horse and some of the boarders and barn owner were there and saw her get her feet get done and I just wanted to be like "HA! She isn't crazy! So there!" But I behaved and didn't say anything... __________________ Proud owner of: Molly's Way "Stella"- 6 year old Thoroughbred Lena- 7 year old Thoroughbred