Breaking - lost transmission :D

enigma · 10-26-2009, 08:46 PM

OK - so I have been intensively working my youngest - he's 4, now. I can saddle, get on, wiggle around, kick, cluck, use voice commands, turn the head and push with opposite leg, and what do I get? REVERSE! I think he's trying to get where he can see me. Had someone lead me tonight and it went pretty well, though he was pretty tense through his back, hollow, and had his head in the air. I did check for saddle fit, and it seemed fine to me.

Short of teaching him to trot and lope in reverse, any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Using halter and lead instead of bridle.

TIA!

Horselady44 · 10-26-2009, 08:56 PM

why are you using a halter and lead instead of bridle? Have you done all the ground work with him? One of the most important things on the ground is lunging. Everything you do in the saddle can and should be done on the ground first. have you taught him to move forward while your on the ground? Thats what you need to do...because it dosnt sound like he knows how to. Hes confused. If you have lunged him...instead of just telling him to go and moving the whip behind him...turn the whip around and use the end that is stiff/the handle and tap him in his flanks where your leg would be and ask him to move forward that way. If you do this a number of times when you get up there he will know when he feels that pressure on his flanks and you clucking (or your voice command you use, I like to cluck to them) he will know to move forward...and when he does move just one step forward while your on him. Stop him and give him a treat! and praise him

This is what I have done with all my horses and everytime I climb up in the saddle for the first time they all have walked out for me. You first need to teach him to walk out on the ground...so he knows what your asking when you mount up. Good Luck! Keep us posted

enigma · 10-26-2009, 09:05 PM

Yup. Tried that. He does lunge, and does round pen work off of only voice commands. I almost feel like he's trying to get the visual for his cue. I've used long "driving" lines on his halter, which is why I'm still going with the lead and halter.

EquineAlberta · 10-28-2009, 09:31 PM

I would sit there. Let him back if he wants to without reacting. Eventually he will get bored and move forward, at which point ask him to move forward and praise him.

Alternatively, something I have done with horses like this, is to stand just behind their shoulder with a hand on either side of their neck holding the reins, and a dressage whip in the hand that is over his back...then use your body and pressure from the whip to send him forward....if he goes to back, back with him, and tap/cluck more agressively (but not violently!). Eventually the horse will stop backing and go forward, at which point you praise the horse. From there, ride him with the dressage whip to send a clear signal to go as you ask with the leg.

Karen

Slim Pikkens · 10-28-2009, 10:38 PM

Don't kick, that will just make him get a little rebellious. Instead use a riding crop and slowly and rhythmically tap him on the top of the rump. The moment he takes even half a step forward, stop tapping, rub the tapping spot then repeat. The stopping of it is as important as the doing. He'll get so that even the suggestion of getting tapped will get him moving. This will stop him from being dull to your legs. He may suddenly step forward so be most careful that you don't bump his mouth or nose if in the halter as this will really confuse him.

enigma · 10-29-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slim Pikkens

Don't kick, that will just make him get a little rebellious. Instead use a riding crop and slowly and rhythmically tap him on the top of the rump. The moment he takes even half a step forward, stop tapping, rub the tapping spot then repeat. The stopping of it is as important as the doing. He'll get so that even the suggestion of getting tapped will get him moving. This will stop him from being dull to your legs. He may suddenly step forward so be most careful that you don't bump his mouth or nose if in the halter as this will really confuse him.

Ahhh, I'll try this one. Thanks! ETA: I may have already trained dead to the legs, actually, with having him stand when I'm flopping stirrups and stuff. Hmmm.... need to think about that, too.....

BklynCwgrl · 10-29-2009, 01:32 PM

How are you sitting? If you are perched forward instead of sitting deep, perhaps that is what's telling him to reverse. Are you driving him with your seat?

enigma · 10-29-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BklynCwgrl

How are you sitting? If you are perched forward instead of sitting deep, perhaps that is what's telling him to reverse. Are you driving him with your seat?

Tried sitting every way but turned around backwards.

I thought the same thing, too much pressure forward, but changing positions didn't make a difference.

NorthernHorseGirl · 10-31-2009, 07:39 PM

If he won't go foreward, turn him. He should have to move if he has to turn. At least he's moving then.

tippy71 · 11-02-2009, 08:38 AM

It sounds to me like he is very confused as to what you are asking him. The best thing to do is keep the pressure on until he does what you are asking then release the pressure/cue when he gives you the correct response. If you release the pressure/cue while he is still backing up he will continue to back up when you apply the cue that may be the reason he is still backing up. And I ride my mare in a halter too she is so light and responsive in it no need for a bit.

Arrow · 11-02-2009, 12:05 PM

Every horse I've ever started did the same thing. Don't worry, he'll get forward. I usually start with a ground person. I ask him to walk with a gentle squeeze and my voice, and the ground person backs me up by leading the horse off. After a time or two, he'll figure it out. Just be patient and soft, and he'll learn.

tuffsmom · 11-02-2009, 12:36 PM

We ground drive until they know walk, trot, canter, Whoa, and back. That way the horse knows what you want. All of it is done with voice comands.

SirenAlecto · 11-02-2009, 12:58 PM

Have you tried getting someone to lunge the horse with you on him?

CowhorseGal · 11-02-2009, 01:01 PM

try to watch Clinton Andersons Colt starting.. on his colts he has someone stand in the middle of the round pen with a handy stick.. he uses the pressure from that to get his colts moving.. We start all of our colts with a halter and lead.. the rope kind not the web kind.. while the guy on the ground is woking the colt fromt he ground the rider is tipping the horses nose around the the side.. this helps them to understand what is wanted of them by using cues fromthe ground tey understand and teaching them the new cues from their back at the same time.. I usuall only need todo this once..

visionquest · 11-10-2009, 07:34 PM

I definately ground drive every horse i train before mounting. They learn to go forward whereever I point their nose with me behind them giving a verbal cue. I have had a few that that still like to just stand, so I do use a crop to tap on the shoulder first to see if they'll go forward. Light bumping with my legs is first then tapping on the shoulder witht he crop, if no response, then I tap on the croup. If they are really stuck, I'll get help from a friend to lead the horse forward, but i still give the cues from their back. It takes just a couple of times before they go forward without help. Have patience and don't feel bad if you end up just sitting there for a while. You know, hum a little tune, sing a little song, the horse will move!!!

misstishus · 11-10-2009, 09:55 PM

It's a very common response for a young or confused horse to brace and 'lock' their front legs. Especially when you say he is tense and hollow already. To fix this, I bend the horse while pressing with my outside leg in front of the girth to get them to step in the direction that they are bent. I ask for a couple steps in one direction, then bend the horse the other direction and ask him to 'turn' and step over with his front legs. Change bend and repeat. Once the horse is consistently moving his front end over, then you can lessen the degree of bend until you are walking a circle. As an added bonus, a horse can't buck or rear when his head is turned to the side so it makes for a much safer 1rst/2nd ride! Good luck!

horsecrazygal · 11-15-2009, 12:07 AM

I train all my horses voice commands on the lunge. Then for the first few rides I have someone lead the horse while I give the voice commands. After that I put them on the lunge with someone standing in the middle. Again I give the voice commands with leg, the person in the middle is only to reinforce me when the horse doesn't respond. Of course, the person in the middle needs to know how much signal to give! Some horses are only on the lunge line for one or two short rides, others take longer. If they know the voice commands well they usually pick it up pretty quickly. Since I usually do not have help when I train, I try to give them the best foundation from the ground before I try riding. I want my training horses to respond to voice commands on the lunge, ground drive, work in side reins, lunge under tack with weight added to the saddle, and stand calmly while being backed before I try riding.

Also when lunging it is important to watch your body language- when you say trot do you walk faster? Many times you might think they understand your voice commands but they are actually reading slight clues from your body.

It sounds like your horse is trying to tell you that he is confused/unused to weight on his back. Take your time, you need to get him to relax before you proceed. Try to stay as quiet in the saddle as possible. When asking to move forward say "walk" firmly and apply leg- if he doesn't respond the second time you say this the person on the ground should walk him forward. You should not be kicking him at this stage, especially if you want him to learn to move off of light leg pressure. Same thing when on the lunge, say it twice then reinforce from the ground. I don't worry to much about turning for the first few rides, just walk, whoa, praise and repeat. Then introduce turning. Don't try trotting until your horse understands how to walk, whoa, and turn off of the lunge. Make sure your horse has a good whoa before trotting. I do use sugar cubes for the first few rides to reinforce a good whoa. When I say whoa I want my horses to stop immediately, and with minimal rein pressure. By training your horse to be responsive to the aids from the beginning you set the standards for future training. Unless my horse is being silly I should not have to be pulling, kicking, or tapping on him.

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10-26-2009, 08:46 PM
enigma Long Yearling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,269	Breaking - lost transmission :D OK - so I have been intensively working my youngest - he's 4, now. I can saddle, get on, wiggle around, kick, cluck, use voice commands, turn the head and push with opposite leg, and what do I get? REVERSE! I think he's trying to get where he can see me. Had someone lead me tonight and it went pretty well, though he was pretty tense through his back, hollow, and had his head in the air. I did check for saddle fit, and it seemed fine to me. Short of teaching him to trot and lope in reverse, any suggestions on how to deal with this? Using halter and lead instead of bridle. TIA! __________________ There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. ~ Winston Churchill

10-26-2009, 08:56 PM
Horselady44 Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 2,401	why are you using a halter and lead instead of bridle? Have you done all the ground work with him? One of the most important things on the ground is lunging. Everything you do in the saddle can and should be done on the ground first. have you taught him to move forward while your on the ground? Thats what you need to do...because it dosnt sound like he knows how to. Hes confused. If you have lunged him...instead of just telling him to go and moving the whip behind him...turn the whip around and use the end that is stiff/the handle and tap him in his flanks where your leg would be and ask him to move forward that way. If you do this a number of times when you get up there he will know when he feels that pressure on his flanks and you clucking (or your voice command you use, I like to cluck to them) he will know to move forward...and when he does move just one step forward while your on him. Stop him and give him a treat! and praise him This is what I have done with all my horses and everytime I climb up in the saddle for the first time they all have walked out for me. You first need to teach him to walk out on the ground...so he knows what your asking when you mount up. Good Luck! Keep us posted __________________ A happy horse equals a happy rider!

10-26-2009, 09:05 PM
enigma Long Yearling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,269	Yup. Tried that. He does lunge, and does round pen work off of only voice commands. I almost feel like he's trying to get the visual for his cue. I've used long "driving" lines on his halter, which is why I'm still going with the lead and halter. __________________ There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. ~ Winston Churchill

10-28-2009, 09:31 PM
EquineAlberta Kid Safe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 6,005	I would sit there. Let him back if he wants to without reacting. Eventually he will get bored and move forward, at which point ask him to move forward and praise him. Alternatively, something I have done with horses like this, is to stand just behind their shoulder with a hand on either side of their neck holding the reins, and a dressage whip in the hand that is over his back...then use your body and pressure from the whip to send him forward....if he goes to back, back with him, and tap/cluck more agressively (but not violently!). Eventually the horse will stop backing and go forward, at which point you praise the horse. From there, ride him with the dressage whip to send a clear signal to go as you ask with the leg. Karen __________________ New Hillside Website The Art of Praise

10-28-2009, 10:38 PM
Slim Pikkens Seasoned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,047	Don't kick, that will just make him get a little rebellious. Instead use a riding crop and slowly and rhythmically tap him on the top of the rump. The moment he takes even half a step forward, stop tapping, rub the tapping spot then repeat. The stopping of it is as important as the doing. He'll get so that even the suggestion of getting tapped will get him moving. This will stop him from being dull to your legs. He may suddenly step forward so be most careful that you don't bump his mouth or nose if in the halter as this will really confuse him.

10-29-2009, 01:32 PM
BklynCwgrl Started Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 2,784	How are you sitting? If you are perched forward instead of sitting deep, perhaps that is what's telling him to reverse. Are you driving him with your seat? __________________ Robin

10-31-2009, 07:39 PM
NorthernHorseGirl Yearling Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 509	If he won't go foreward, turn him. He should have to move if he has to turn. At least he's moving then. __________________ Some horses come into our lives and quickly go. Others stay awhile and make hoofprints on our hearts and we are never, ever the same. Anonymous Rest in peace Clint, I'll always love you and I'll miss you for the rest of my life. You were and will always be my perfect horse.

11-02-2009, 08:38 AM
tippy71 Newborn Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: north carolina Posts: 35	It sounds to me like he is very confused as to what you are asking him. The best thing to do is keep the pressure on until he does what you are asking then release the pressure/cue when he gives you the correct response. If you release the pressure/cue while he is still backing up he will continue to back up when you apply the cue that may be the reason he is still backing up. And I ride my mare in a halter too she is so light and responsive in it no need for a bit. __________________ wiggle,wave,whack!! I love clinton anderson

11-02-2009, 12:05 PM
Arrow Halter broke Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 88	Every horse I've ever started did the same thing. Don't worry, he'll get forward. I usually start with a ground person. I ask him to walk with a gentle squeeze and my voice, and the ground person backs me up by leading the horse off. After a time or two, he'll figure it out. Just be patient and soft, and he'll learn.

11-02-2009, 12:36 PM
tuffsmom Kid Safe Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 5,736	We ground drive until they know walk, trot, canter, Whoa, and back. That way the horse knows what you want. All of it is done with voice comands. __________________

11-02-2009, 12:58 PM
SirenAlecto Weanling Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 270	Have you tried getting someone to lunge the horse with you on him? __________________

11-02-2009, 01:01 PM
CowhorseGal Long Yearling Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,047	try to watch Clinton Andersons Colt starting.. on his colts he has someone stand in the middle of the round pen with a handy stick.. he uses the pressure from that to get his colts moving.. We start all of our colts with a halter and lead.. the rope kind not the web kind.. while the guy on the ground is woking the colt fromt he ground the rider is tipping the horses nose around the the side.. this helps them to understand what is wanted of them by using cues fromthe ground tey understand and teaching them the new cues from their back at the same time.. I usuall only need todo this once.. __________________ Quality Peformance horses with foundation breeding http://blackcanyonpaints.webs.com/

11-10-2009, 07:34 PM
visionquest Weanling Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Harrodsburg, KY Posts: 463	I definately ground drive every horse i train before mounting. They learn to go forward whereever I point their nose with me behind them giving a verbal cue. I have had a few that that still like to just stand, so I do use a crop to tap on the shoulder first to see if they'll go forward. Light bumping with my legs is first then tapping on the shoulder witht he crop, if no response, then I tap on the croup. If they are really stuck, I'll get help from a friend to lead the horse forward, but i still give the cues from their back. It takes just a couple of times before they go forward without help. Have patience and don't feel bad if you end up just sitting there for a while. You know, hum a little tune, sing a little song, the horse will move!!!

11-10-2009, 09:55 PM
misstishus Weanling Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 273	It's a very common response for a young or confused horse to brace and 'lock' their front legs. Especially when you say he is tense and hollow already. To fix this, I bend the horse while pressing with my outside leg in front of the girth to get them to step in the direction that they are bent. I ask for a couple steps in one direction, then bend the horse the other direction and ask him to 'turn' and step over with his front legs. Change bend and repeat. Once the horse is consistently moving his front end over, then you can lessen the degree of bend until you are walking a circle. As an added bonus, a horse can't buck or rear when his head is turned to the side so it makes for a much safer 1rst/2nd ride! Good luck!

11-15-2009, 12:07 AM
horsecrazygal Newborn Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: FL Posts: 29	I train all my horses voice commands on the lunge. Then for the first few rides I have someone lead the horse while I give the voice commands. After that I put them on the lunge with someone standing in the middle. Again I give the voice commands with leg, the person in the middle is only to reinforce me when the horse doesn't respond. Of course, the person in the middle needs to know how much signal to give! Some horses are only on the lunge line for one or two short rides, others take longer. If they know the voice commands well they usually pick it up pretty quickly. Since I usually do not have help when I train, I try to give them the best foundation from the ground before I try riding. I want my training horses to respond to voice commands on the lunge, ground drive, work in side reins, lunge under tack with weight added to the saddle, and stand calmly while being backed before I try riding. Also when lunging it is important to watch your body language- when you say trot do you walk faster? Many times you might think they understand your voice commands but they are actually reading slight clues from your body. It sounds like your horse is trying to tell you that he is confused/unused to weight on his back. Take your time, you need to get him to relax before you proceed. Try to stay as quiet in the saddle as possible. When asking to move forward say "walk" firmly and apply leg- if he doesn't respond the second time you say this the person on the ground should walk him forward. You should not be kicking him at this stage, especially if you want him to learn to move off of light leg pressure. Same thing when on the lunge, say it twice then reinforce from the ground. I don't worry to much about turning for the first few rides, just walk, whoa, praise and repeat. Then introduce turning. Don't try trotting until your horse understands how to walk, whoa, and turn off of the lunge. Make sure your horse has a good whoa before trotting. I do use sugar cubes for the first few rides to reinforce a good whoa. When I say whoa I want my horses to stop immediately, and with minimal rein pressure. By training your horse to be responsive to the aids from the beginning you set the standards for future training. Unless my horse is being silly I should not have to be pulling, kicking, or tapping on him.