How to Figure Out...

Island Mist · 10-20-2009, 09:28 PM

How do you figure out how much training is too much? Our horse went from being well trained and wel used with its first owner to being a paddock potato with her second. She's so eager and happy to work, work, work that we apparently pushed her, as she now appears to have a case of sporadic tying up. She never indicated anything but zeal until she could barely move. (12 hrs later she seemed almost perfect again). Obviously, riding her almost every day was too much. How do you find the right amount?

I do plan to have my daughter ride just the 3-5 days/week (instead of current 6) suggested in a training book, as well as monitor heartrate.

GoLightly · 10-21-2009, 04:47 PM

Why do you think it's tying up?
Tying up can be pretty serious. Actually, it can be Extremely serious.

It is very easy to over-work the willing horse. They expect you to know when to stop.
She is now suddenly not a pasture potato? I'm sorry, I was confused by that. How long has she been back in work?
It takes quite a few months of management to bring a pasture pet back to "full" work. And even horses in full work gets days of easier work interspersed with more difficult.

There is "training" riding, and then there is just hacking around riding. Both are equally important. Lots of walking is excellent for loosening them up, and getting them fit, without hurting them.

It sounds like she's doing too much, too soon, imo.

Is she sweating heavily when working?
Riding every day is fine, as long as it's not hard work for the horse, every time.

singing tree · 10-21-2009, 05:52 PM

Maybe you need two horses so your zealous daughter can still ride every day

Horselady44 · 10-21-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singing tree

Maybe you need two horses so your zealous daughter can still ride every day

Good point! Maybe you need to get one more

Island Mist · 10-22-2009, 09:43 PM

We are planning to get another in the spring. Ironically, the reason she is being ridden as much as she is is the fact that she's a lone horse and my daughter's hellbent on keeping her adequately entertained.

The vet diagnosed her after a blood test as tying up. It has indeed been very stressful but she is improving immensely.

Because our horse is so well-trained, we also assumed she was getting a decent amount of riding from her previous owner. However, we discovered that the owner only rode her one every month or so, and in the 5 months before we got her, shew wasn't ridden at al.

My daughter is training her on jumps (although now we are obviously on hiatus). My vet seems to think that jumping less than an hour a day, several days a week is fine. He thinks the tying up is all about Vitamin E (she's apparently extremely deficient, a cause of tying up).

However, though my vet doesn't think it's exercise related, even assuming he's right, it has been a wake-up call to pay attention to making sure she isn't overworked. It doesn't seem to be a point that's disiussed in any of our books.

Horselady44 · 10-23-2009, 01:25 AM

Hmm...well I would def give her some time off. Just have your daughter go out and brush her take her on some walks...another fun thing for a kid to do with their horse is trick training...just make sure she dosnt teach it any of the dangerous tricks

Just let the horse rest for a few weeks make sure you have the vet out to give her a good to go before you start her on any jumping espiecally

Carri · 10-23-2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singing tree

Maybe you need two horses so your zealous daughter can still ride every day

That really is working for Anna! She has 2 ponies, so she always has someone she can ride!

We try to vary the horse's schedule according to goals and the horses excercise needs, but make sure that they are not overworked and are getting plenty of downtime.

Anna is only allowed to jump each pony 2 times per week (and Dream, who is in training, can only be jumped in lessons under the supervision of her trainer).

On the other days, we ride in the arena a couple of days a week, walk/trot/canter, and do no-stirrup work. On those days, Anna also usually takes Cricket for a good run, and makes sure Dream gets plenty of cantering. The other days, Cricket gets trail ridden and Dream gets ridden by the trainer.

Depending on weather and schedule busyness, both ponies usually get a couple of days off a week. This week, we have been warming up in the arena, doing a few crossrails and then going for a trail ride every day. That also gets in some hill work, which is good for the hind-end!

Island Mist · 10-23-2009, 11:35 AM

OK I think what it comes down to is this: Can anyone recommend a really good step-by-step "Horse Conditioning for Dummies" style of book? Books we have say things like "get your horse back into shape gradually." "Don't overdo the jumps." No kidding, I knew that, but what is "gradually"? What is "overdoing the jumps"? I need a book that says, "exercise 45 min a day 4 days a week" or whatever.My daughter is extremely wiling to exercise a horse exactly the right amount- the key is knowing what "the right amount" is.

Island Mist · 10-23-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carri

That really is working for Anna! She has 2 ponies, so she always has someone she can ride!

We try to vary the horse's schedule according to goals and the horses excercise needs, but make sure that they are not overworked and are getting plenty of downtime.

Anna is only allowed to jump each pony 2 times per week (and Dream, who is in training, can only be jumped in lessons under the supervision of her trainer).

On the other days, we ride in the arena a couple of days a week, walk/trot/canter, and do no-stirrup work. On those days, Anna also usually takes Cricket for a good run, and makes sure Dream gets plenty of cantering. The other days, Cricket gets trail ridden and Dream gets ridden by the trainer.

Depending on weather and schedule busyness, both ponies usually get a couple of days off a week. This week, we have been warming up in the arena, doing a few crossrails and then going for a trail ride every day. That also gets in some hill work, which is good for the hind-end!

I meant to add, this is as close to concrete info as I have gotten. The added glitch is that our horse was not exercised in the 5months previous to us getting her, and even though we monitored sweating, other signs of exhaustion, etc., we don't know if we overdid it. The vet seems to think her tying up episode is due solely to her vitamin E deficiency, and that she wasn't overworked, but if there's one thing I've learned about tying up,there are about as many opinions as there are horses. Regardless, our horse will be ooking at a month's down time,so we want to start back in right.

Island Mist · 10-23-2009, 11:42 AM

My daughter is giving her more attention than ever- brushing, etc.I've never seen such a glossy horse

She really, really wants to do trick training. Any recommendations for books on the matter?

Thanks,

Laura

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horselady44

Hmm...well I would def give her some time off. Just have your daughter go out and brush her take her on some walks...another fun thing for a kid to do with their horse is trick training...just make sure she dosnt teach it any of the dangerous tricks

Just let the horse rest for a few weeks make sure you have the vet out to give her a good to go before you start her on any jumping espiecally

GoLightly · 10-23-2009, 09:54 PM

A wonderful, but pretty deep book on training is "Lads Before The Wind", by Karen Pryor. It's great to get a broad idea of what training actually is, & it helps with any animal you wish to train. Glad to hear that you've gotten a better history on your mare.
There's no "hard and fast" set book of rules for conditioning training. It all depends on what the horse is expected to be trained for. If your mare is going to do endurance riding, for example, your daughter will need to learn to slowly build condition on the mare over longer and longer periods.
(smiling,remembering how keen I was at that age, too)
Jumping is another issue. It does sound like too much was done, too soon, and it is very easy for a youngster to over-extend the horse. Boy,do I remember that

Once a week, jumping no more than a few jumps, should be the rule, once she's slowly brought back up in fitness again, and has the all-clear from the vet. Twice a week is plenty, for most any horse.
Most novice riders feel an hour of jumping is okay. It is too much. In a "normal" school, no more than fifteen minutes should be spent jumping, the rest spent on the much more important flat-work.
Horses have only so many jumps in them.
Conditioning work principles are the same for all animals. Slowly build up times spent riding at walk, then trot, then canter.
An excellent read on conditioning could be found through Bruce Davidson's books. He is a proponent of "interval training"=A common way of building condition/fitness in human athletes, applied to horses.

Stop as the horse begins to blow/breathe harder/sweat. That's enough for that day. The next day, add a minute more. Very slowly and gradually increase the amount of time spent at each gait, interspersed with frequent walk breaks..
But you are asking for a horse to be fitted up for a young rider. Therefore, she needs a LOT of slowly building fitness work

A horse needs to be VERY fit for the young rider

The mare sounds like a wonderfully kind, giving sort. Kudos to polishing her coat!

Island Mist · 10-23-2009, 11:30 PM

1) Thanks
2) Thanks
3) THanks

I appreciate the leads on reading material as well as the personal info.

I was ut at B&N tonight reading a lot tonight on cheking fitness levels by sets of pulse readings, and we will definitely do this. Misty has never broken a sweat or seemed less than exuberant, so I suspect pulse and respiration will all be dandy, but it will be a good measure. SHe does yawn a lot after trail rides, though!

I definitely like interval training for human fitness, so will look at ordering a book of Bruce Davison's. "Lads ..." will make a good Christmas gift, I think!

We will limit jumping to once or twice a week. I appreciate you giving me the 15 minute guide.

THe horse is indeed wonderful. I used to think,self-pityingly, "Aw man, because of Claire's passion,my life is gonna have to be all about horses." Now that we own this gem, every day I think, "Wow! Because of Claire's passion, my life now gets to be all about horses!" I have aways liked animals, but I never knew one would claim my heart like this girl.

Laura

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLightly

A wonderful, but pretty deep book on training is "Lads Before The Wind", by Karen Pryor. It's great to get a broad idea of what training actually is, & it helps with any animal you wish to train. Glad to hear that you've gotten a better history on your mare.
There's no "hard and fast" set book of rules for conditioning training. It all depends on what the horse is expected to be trained for. If your mare is going to do endurance riding, for example, your daughter will need to learn to slowly build condition on the mare over longer and longer periods.
(smiling,remembering how keen I was at that age, too)
Jumping is another issue. It does sound like too much was done, too soon, and it is very easy for a youngster to over-extend the horse. Boy,do I remember that

Once a week, jumping no more than a few jumps, should be the rule, once she's slowly brought back up in fitness again, and has the all-clear from the vet. Twice a week is plenty, for most any horse.
Most novice riders feel an hour of jumping is okay. It is too much. In a "normal" school, no more than fifteen minutes should be spent jumping, the rest spent on the much more important flat-work.
Horses have only so many jumps in them.
Conditioning work principles are the same for all animals. Slowly build up times spent riding at walk, then trot, then canter.
An excellent read on conditioning could be found through Bruce Davidson's books. He is a proponent of "interval training"=A common way of building condition/fitness in human athletes, applied to horses.

Stop as the horse begins to blow/breathe harder/sweat. That's enough for that day. The next day, add a minute more. Very slowly and gradually increase the amount of time spent at each gait, interspersed with frequent walk breaks..
But you are asking for a horse to be fitted up for a young rider. Therefore, she needs a LOT of slowly building fitness work

A horse needs to be VERY fit for the young rider

The mare sounds like a wonderfully kind, giving sort. Kudos to polishing her coat!

Horselady44 · 10-23-2009, 11:45 PM

You can PM me and I can talk you through alot of the easier tricks that your daughter can teach. They are fun for the horse and fun for the girl...Im sure she will just fall in love with it. Im not sure where your from(cant remember what your avator says...but in the winter up here its a great way to keep thier minds going and it also gets them to pay attention to you more when your not able to ride as much IMO or when in your case your daughter really wants to give the horse attention and do something other than groom...but cant ride

Island Mist · 10-24-2009, 12:22 PM

Thank you! I will PM you! We're in New Hampshire so yes, it will be a loooong winter.

My daughter wants to do the type of tricks you mentioned for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks! My daughter is reading over my shoulder and is very interested.

Laura

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horselady44

You can PM me and I can talk you through alot of the easier tricks that your daughter can teach. They are fun for the horse and fun for the girl...Im sure she will just fall in love with it. Im not sure where your from(cant remember what your avator says...but in the winter up here its a great way to keep thier minds going and it also gets them to pay attention to you more when your not able to ride as much IMO or when in your case your daughter really wants to give the horse attention and do something other than groom...but cant ride

singing tree · 10-24-2009, 01:54 PM

Another training thought is clicker training. Once you understand that concept, the sky is the limit. Alexandra Kurland is a good author on the subject, and has written several books that are well written. Have fun!

tuffsmom · 10-24-2009, 02:12 PM

I had a Morgan the EPSM. As long as you are consistant with the work and the diet he was on. He hasn't tyed up again. He was out doing CTR for the last three years. I don't know of many books out there that tell you how to work a horse.

pippy · 10-24-2009, 04:38 PM

I don't know much about tying up, but on the jumping, when we were at the eventing barn and that was our sport, those horses had one day a wk off from doing anything, 3 days consisted of flat work/dressage and 3 w/ flat work for warm up and 2 rounds of jumping a full course or, if they were focusing on a certain jump type, they may jump the same amount of time as it took a full course but w/ on the one or two styles they were focusing on.
I am sure there will alot of different opinions on how much jumping is to much for a fit horse. Also- when they jumped the 2 rounds, we are talking 4' jumps all the way w/ spreads as well, so two rounds was a work out for the horse. So, even once the horse is fit for the job, how much is to much depends on the type of jump...(imo)

Island Mist · 10-24-2009, 05:33 PM

Thank you! I appreciate all the helpful input I've been getting.

Do you know if the day the horses got off their food changed at all? I have discovered that tying up is also called "Monday Morning Sickness" because it often afflicted work horses after they had Sunday off but still had the same food ration. It's just what happened with our girl- she was ridden a little bit almost every day, then wasn't ridden on a snowy weekend and was riden again Monday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pippy

I don't know much about tying up, but on the jumping, when we were at the eventing barn and that was our sport, those horses had one day a wk off from doing anything, 3 days consisted of flat work/dressage and 3 w/ flat work for warm up and 2 rounds of jumping a full course or, if they were focusing on a certain jump type, they may jump the same amount of time as it took a full course but w/ on the one or two styles they were focusing on.
I am sure there will alot of different opinions on how much jumping is to much for a fit horse. Also- when they jumped the 2 rounds, we are talking 4' jumps all the way w/ spreads as well, so two rounds was a work out for the horse. So, even once the horse is fit for the job, how much is to much depends on the type of jump...(imo)

pippy · 10-24-2009, 06:43 PM

They were fed the same everyday.
I was talking to a gal last weekend at a barrel race that said her good barrel horse becomes tyed up and he is in excellent physical shape, so my point is that even a physically fit horse can tye up. Have you heard of everything in this article? Thought I'd post here incase it lends you some new helpful info: http://www.horses-and-horse-informat...4tyingup.shtml

Island Mist · 10-25-2009, 07:34 PM

Thank you. I did read that article on one of my sleepless nights, but I appreciate re-reading it now that the worry storm is over.

The vet gave her a shot of vitamin E which did wonders, so at this point I'm assuming that's it.

My vet feels very strongly that we haven't been over exerting or overfeeding her, that vitamin E is likely her key, and also that tying up isn't well understood but that doesn't stop a lot of people on the street from having lots of opinions

In other words, the vet made me feel better before he made the horse feel better.

A lot of good advice here has helped with diagnosis and a plan of action for exercise through recovery.

Thank you for mentioning about your friend's barrel horse. I am so pleased to hear about manageable tying up stories like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pippy

They were fed the same everyday.
I was talking to a gal last weekend at a barrel race that said her good barrel horse becomes tyed up and he is in excellent physical shape, so my point is that even a physically fit horse can tye up. Have you heard of everything in this article? Thought I'd post here incase it lends you some new helpful info: http://www.horses-and-horse-informat...4tyingup.shtml

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10-20-2009, 09:28 PM
Island Mist Halter broke Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 175	How to Figure Out... How do you figure out how much training is too much? Our horse went from being well trained and wel used with its first owner to being a paddock potato with her second. She's so eager and happy to work, work, work that we apparently pushed her, as she now appears to have a case of sporadic tying up. She never indicated anything but zeal until she could barely move. (12 hrs later she seemed almost perfect again). Obviously, riding her almost every day was too much. How do you find the right amount? I do plan to have my daughter ride just the 3-5 days/week (instead of current 6) suggested in a training book, as well as monitor heartrate. Last edited by Island Mist : 10-20-2009 at 09:49 PM.

10-21-2009, 04:47 PM
GoLightly Newborn Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 46	Why do you think it's tying up? Tying up can be pretty serious. Actually, it can be Extremely serious. It is very easy to over-work the willing horse. They expect you to know when to stop. She is now suddenly not a pasture potato? I'm sorry, I was confused by that. How long has she been back in work? It takes quite a few months of management to bring a pasture pet back to "full" work. And even horses in full work gets days of easier work interspersed with more difficult. There is "training" riding, and then there is just hacking around riding. Both are equally important. Lots of walking is excellent for loosening them up, and getting them fit, without hurting them. It sounds like she's doing too much, too soon, imo. Is she sweating heavily when working? Riding every day is fine, as long as it's not hard work for the horse, every time. __________________ Hope is the thing with feathers, that perches in the soul, and sings the tune without the words, and never stops at all.. Emily Dickinson. When I was born, I was so surprised, I didn't speak for a year and a half. Gracie Allan.

10-21-2009, 05:52 PM
singing tree Long Yearling Join Date: May 2009 Location: Hartville, Ohio Posts: 1,047	Maybe you need two horses so your zealous daughter can still ride every day

10-22-2009, 09:43 PM
Island Mist Halter broke Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 175	We are planning to get another in the spring. Ironically, the reason she is being ridden as much as she is is the fact that she's a lone horse and my daughter's hellbent on keeping her adequately entertained. The vet diagnosed her after a blood test as tying up. It has indeed been very stressful but she is improving immensely. Because our horse is so well-trained, we also assumed she was getting a decent amount of riding from her previous owner. However, we discovered that the owner only rode her one every month or so, and in the 5 months before we got her, shew wasn't ridden at al. My daughter is training her on jumps (although now we are obviously on hiatus). My vet seems to think that jumping less than an hour a day, several days a week is fine. He thinks the tying up is all about Vitamin E (she's apparently extremely deficient, a cause of tying up). However, though my vet doesn't think it's exercise related, even assuming he's right, it has been a wake-up call to pay attention to making sure she isn't overworked. It doesn't seem to be a point that's disiussed in any of our books.

10-23-2009, 01:25 AM
Horselady44 Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 2,437	Hmm...well I would def give her some time off. Just have your daughter go out and brush her take her on some walks...another fun thing for a kid to do with their horse is trick training...just make sure she dosnt teach it any of the dangerous tricks Just let the horse rest for a few weeks make sure you have the vet out to give her a good to go before you start her on any jumping espiecally __________________ A happy horse equals a happy rider!

10-23-2009, 11:35 AM
Island Mist Halter broke Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 175	Book Recommendation Please! OK I think what it comes down to is this: Can anyone recommend a really good step-by-step "Horse Conditioning for Dummies" style of book? Books we have say things like "get your horse back into shape gradually." "Don't overdo the jumps." No kidding, I knew that, but what is "gradually"? What is "overdoing the jumps"? I need a book that says, "exercise 45 min a day 4 days a week" or whatever.My daughter is extremely wiling to exercise a horse exactly the right amount- the key is knowing what "the right amount" is.

10-23-2009, 09:54 PM
GoLightly Newborn Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 46	A wonderful, but pretty deep book on training is "Lads Before The Wind", by Karen Pryor. It's great to get a broad idea of what training actually is, & it helps with any animal you wish to train. Glad to hear that you've gotten a better history on your mare. There's no "hard and fast" set book of rules for conditioning training. It all depends on what the horse is expected to be trained for. If your mare is going to do endurance riding, for example, your daughter will need to learn to slowly build condition on the mare over longer and longer periods. (smiling,remembering how keen I was at that age, too) Jumping is another issue. It does sound like too much was done, too soon, and it is very easy for a youngster to over-extend the horse. Boy,do I remember that Once a week, jumping no more than a few jumps, should be the rule, once she's slowly brought back up in fitness again, and has the all-clear from the vet. Twice a week is plenty, for most any horse. Most novice riders feel an hour of jumping is okay. It is too much. In a "normal" school, no more than fifteen minutes should be spent jumping, the rest spent on the much more important flat-work. Horses have only so many jumps in them. Conditioning work principles are the same for all animals. Slowly build up times spent riding at walk, then trot, then canter. An excellent read on conditioning could be found through Bruce Davidson's books. He is a proponent of "interval training"=A common way of building condition/fitness in human athletes, applied to horses. Stop as the horse begins to blow/breathe harder/sweat. That's enough for that day. The next day, add a minute more. Very slowly and gradually increase the amount of time spent at each gait, interspersed with frequent walk breaks.. But you are asking for a horse to be fitted up for a young rider. Therefore, she needs a LOT of slowly building fitness work A horse needs to be VERY fit for the young rider The mare sounds like a wonderfully kind, giving sort. Kudos to polishing her coat! __________________ Hope is the thing with feathers, that perches in the soul, and sings the tune without the words, and never stops at all.. Emily Dickinson. When I was born, I was so surprised, I didn't speak for a year and a half. Gracie Allan.

10-23-2009, 11:45 PM
Horselady44 Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 2,437	You can PM me and I can talk you through alot of the easier tricks that your daughter can teach. They are fun for the horse and fun for the girl...Im sure she will just fall in love with it. Im not sure where your from(cant remember what your avator says...but in the winter up here its a great way to keep thier minds going and it also gets them to pay attention to you more when your not able to ride as much IMO or when in your case your daughter really wants to give the horse attention and do something other than groom...but cant ride __________________ A happy horse equals a happy rider!

10-24-2009, 01:54 PM
singing tree Long Yearling Join Date: May 2009 Location: Hartville, Ohio Posts: 1,047	Another training thought is clicker training. Once you understand that concept, the sky is the limit. Alexandra Kurland is a good author on the subject, and has written several books that are well written. Have fun!

10-24-2009, 02:12 PM
tuffsmom Kid Safe Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 5,740	I had a Morgan the EPSM. As long as you are consistant with the work and the diet he was on. He hasn't tyed up again. He was out doing CTR for the last three years. I don't know of many books out there that tell you how to work a horse. __________________

10-24-2009, 04:38 PM
pippy Started Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: minnesota Posts: 2,300	I don't know much about tying up, but on the jumping, when we were at the eventing barn and that was our sport, those horses had one day a wk off from doing anything, 3 days consisted of flat work/dressage and 3 w/ flat work for warm up and 2 rounds of jumping a full course or, if they were focusing on a certain jump type, they may jump the same amount of time as it took a full course but w/ on the one or two styles they were focusing on. I am sure there will alot of different opinions on how much jumping is to much for a fit horse. Also- when they jumped the 2 rounds, we are talking 4' jumps all the way w/ spreads as well, so two rounds was a work out for the horse. So, even once the horse is fit for the job, how much is to much depends on the type of jump...(imo) __________________ "It's never to late to live happily ever after."

10-24-2009, 06:43 PM
pippy Started Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: minnesota Posts: 2,300	They were fed the same everyday. I was talking to a gal last weekend at a barrel race that said her good barrel horse becomes tyed up and he is in excellent physical shape, so my point is that even a physically fit horse can tye up. Have you heard of everything in this article? Thought I'd post here incase it lends you some new helpful info: http://www.horses-and-horse-informat...4tyingup.shtml __________________ "It's never to late to live happily ever after."