Can you train a horse to not be agressive to other horses when riding?

jyates · 03-13-2009, 06:59 AM

Hi all,

We've got a gelding horse that is going on 5 or 6 years old now that is apt to "go after" other horses during trail riding from time to time. No kicking as of yet, but he will attempt to bite or nip certain horses from time to time and it makes the rider have to be on edge to pull him away when he attempts it. Thus making it not a fun ride for the rider of said horse.

Of course his attempts make the horses "gone after" nervous and they are watching him instead of paying attention to where they are going and they make sure they say out of his nipping range and they are shy to get near him so if they pass in a trail they move past quickly so they don't get "nipped".

He's a largest and youngest horse and out of our 4 horses (all geldings) he is the 2nd in pecking order. He pretty well has the run of the other 2 when they are in the pasture and he will run them off their hay not to eat their hay but only to show he's the boss of them. Of course when he runs them off their hay he goes back to his pile and they will come back to their pile and eat and everything will be fine for a while until he decides he wants some more "fun" and he will run them away again eventually.

Does anyone have any ideas on what we can do to change this nipping / agressive habit of his?

Thanks,
Jim

seerfarm · 03-13-2009, 07:39 AM

Have you noticed that this happens regardless of where he may be in the trail riding line? IE: Have you tried allowing him to be lead horse and place everyone else behind him?

My other thought on the matter is that he is attempting (during trail rides) to move up in the heard so to speak... Another horse is probably going to be your best teacher in the matter. Pony him out with a horse that is higher in the herd, and see if that doesn't correct his nipping issue by allowing the head horse to keep him in his place.

jyates · 03-13-2009, 08:02 AM

A lot of the riding we do isn't necessarliy in line formation since a lot of where we ride is broad but we do ride as a group in a broad path, but you are right.....a lot of the time he's not in the front but he doesn't seem to want to be the leader either. But that is indeed something we can try but I would rather him shake the habit than us having to cater to him about where he "wants" to be.

Out of the 4 horses he's got it over on 2 of them so I don't think he's trying to "move up" on them and I don't believe he has nipped at the boss as of yet.

What do you think of a small whack on the neck and a "no" when he tries to take a nip?

seerfarm · 03-13-2009, 08:07 AM

If you can isolate when "He attempts" his nips then yes, it is easier to nip it in the bud. (Working him out of it, by refocussing his attention) Being careful however to make sure, that it is an aggression response that you are correcting for, versus a response to herd dynamics.

CowhorseGal · 03-13-2009, 08:19 AM

I agree with working him out of it..get his feet moving. small circles at the trot, figure eights, leg yeilding, stopping, backing, etc... all with a bit of hustle.. make him think that everytime he acts ornery he will but put to work.. hard.....

dimpleflirt · 03-13-2009, 08:23 AM

I get what seerfarm is saying about the herd order bit but in my mind the rider should be the herd leader of the horse they are on one and set the horse straight.I noticed my gelding that I sold would try to keep his underdog from passing him in races by posturing at him but he would be reprimanded for it.You need to discipline the horse in some form or break him off from the group every time he attempts to bite at a horse lower on the pecking order.You would be pushing him out of the group every time he does this "naughty " behavior as another horse would .You can start by turning him away from the group and going back to the back of the line every time he starts to act like he's incline to bite, if this doesn't help after being consistent , I would pop him on the shoulder with a crop and give a verbal. If you don't want to go that route then try putting him at the back of the group, some leaders like to bring up the back of the group and feel like they are herding them.If it were an alpha female they often like to take the front of the pack ,but each animal can be different.

Good luck

jyates · 03-13-2009, 08:38 AM

Thanks for the advice so far folks.....good ideas all the way around....and he is "Posturing" as someone said..being passed does make him "mad" (if horses get mad that is) and he may be 2nd in pecking order when he is in the pasture but when he is being ridden he needs to learn to pay attention to his owner and not what the other horses are doing.

I believe he needs a strong hand and A LOT of riding...he's probably had more riding time in the past few months than he's had all of his life combined and he needs more, more, more,....his owner calls him a "permanent 3 year old" be cause of his agressiveness and sometimes "temper tantrums". No bucking, but he has a way of showing his displeasure when things aren't going to suit him.

Sonseeahray's_girl · 03-13-2009, 09:38 AM

Here's a sub-question, and sorry if this is off topic...

What if you have two geldings who do NOT get along in the pasture? As in the one tries to aggressively go after the other one all the time? Is it possible to ride with them in the same group? In my mind, the underdog would be freaking out all the time due to being nervous of the aggressive one

can THIS be controlled during rides? I understand that there's no controlling the herd dynamic out in the pasture, but what about on rides?

jyates · 03-13-2009, 09:57 AM

I don't think it's off topic at all.....one of our horses is totally scared of the agressor and when the scared one gets near the agressor you can sense the tension between them.

My first instinct is to treat the horse as one of my children and be firm and constant with discipline but it's not my horse and I don't want to advise what the owner should do when I'm not certain myself!

AngelPA · 03-13-2009, 10:03 AM

Sonsee ~ I have THE MOST chicken hearted mare in the world (Seriously) she is lower then low on the pecking order, even the dwarf goats rank higher

BUT when I'm her back, she turns into wonder woman. Threw me, and her trust in me, she knows I have her 'back' and nothing will make her question my askings, weather it's going right next to the alpha in the herd, leading, following, going by the 'scary' monsters what ever they may be. When I'm with or on her, we are a team, and she knows I wont put her harms way. That trust didn't happen over night now, but it happend fairly quickly.

As to the orginal post on here, That fella's IMO is just a little stinker. I'd personaly do a quick jerk N release on the opistiate rein and growl at him. A lot of people will say that's awful on thier mouth, notice I said a QUICK jerk and release, might not be everybodys way but it would be what I would be doing. The above posts' are good opinions as well. Good Luck! He sounds like a good fella with a bit of little boy in him.

Sonseeahray's_girl · 03-13-2009, 10:09 AM

Okay, so it IS a surmountable problem, but it takes correcting the errant horse when being aggressive, and trust between the submissive horse and it's rider. Hmm...interesting, and heartening from my standpoint, since I foresee this problem in my near future! At least I know now that I can control the situation when everyone is under saddle, even if I can't be out in the pasture at all times.

EquineAlberta · 03-13-2009, 10:10 AM

jyates, my solution to this would depend greatly on the horse's general temperment; do you think he feels threatened, or is it that he is bored? is he the kind of horse to stir up trouble for entertainment, or is he socially insecure?

If he is the kind to be bored or to stir up trouble for entertainment, then active discipline (Smacking him, circling him and so on) may be seen as a reward and not a punishment...kid of like how kids act up when they feel ignored/bored. Any attention is better than no attention.

If he is socially insecure, then discipline would be unfair, but circling may refocus his mind.

If he is just plain a jerk, then again discipline may not work...it may just rechanel his agression to his rider and a fight will ensue. If the rider takes this approach he must be prepared for a battle. An insecure rider should not discipline a challenging/jerky horse.

I like the idea of putting him in front. I would also consider having his rider actually ride the entire trail....not just be passive. So school the horse just like if he was in a training ring. This will help the horse learn to focus on his rider. This should start from the moment the rider gets on, and not just when he misbehaves. After a few rides with him focused on his rider, then try letting him relax on the ride home and slowly let the "free" time increase.

Karen

jyates · 03-13-2009, 10:17 AM

I'm sure it's a pain in the rear and makes a nice ride less enjoyable when you have to keep your eyes on your horse to make sure they don't nip or bully other horses and I'm for whatever it takes to communicate to the horse that certain behavior won't be permitted in the least.

He is very possessive about his feed....when you feed grain (don't do it very often) he really is right on your rear as you walk to the feed bowls and where the other horses will go to their respective bowls and wait for you to come and dump in their bowls he wants to stick with you and you end up between him and the "boss" and the fireworks fly.....pretty dangerous place to be....I've had to carry a dressage whip with me and had to drive him away from me
so I didn't end up sandwiched between 2 horses!

Lady_MCSE · 03-13-2009, 10:41 AM

Try washing off the makeup and getting a new hairdoo. That might help him be less freaked out.

Just teasin', since I see you're getting real advice and I have nothing valuable to add. Dippity doo.

jyates · 03-13-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady_MCSE

Try washing off the makeup and getting a new hairdoo. That might help him be less freaked out.

Just teasin', since I see you're getting real advice and I have nothing valuable to add. Dippity doo.

Hey Kiddo! He's not trying to bite me.....just the other horses.....He knows he'd get a big swat from the Oompa Loompa hands if he fools with me!

seerfarm · 03-13-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyates

I'm sure it's a pain in the rear and makes a nice ride less enjoyable when you have to keep your eyes on your horse to make sure they don't nip or bully other horses and I'm for whatever it takes to communicate to the horse that certain behavior won't be permitted in the least.

He is very possessive about his feed....when you feed grain (don't do it very often) he really is right on your rear as you walk to the feed bowls and where the other horses will go to their respective bowls and wait for you to come and dump in their bowls he wants to stick with you and you end up between him and the "boss" and the fireworks fly.....pretty dangerous place to be....I've had to carry a dressage whip with me and had to drive him away from me
so I didn't end up sandwiched between 2 horses!

My own personal opinion here, but based on what you have shared so far, I still think, given the above statement, that this is a herd dynamic thing. The horse is seeing the human, as well as certain horses that he rides with, as one up on the totem pole, he is asserting himself to try and move up.

dimpleflirt · 03-13-2009, 10:55 AM

I would keep taking the whip with you at feed time and make all horses keep their distance from you at feed time ...this is where YOUR ALPHA behavior should start.
I would not jerk the bit unless its a spur of the moment thing you HAVE to do, but as I stated earlier either remove him instantly from the situation or verbal and pop him.I don't like to jerk on horse mouths as punishment but I understand you may have to snatch the reins to stop him mid bite.
If he is posturing I would get his attention when he starts and redirect him in some way to help him forget his train of though.

successfulhorse · 03-13-2009, 11:07 AM

After reading your responses to others, a couple of things come to mind. What you are experiencing is learned or trained behavior. What is happening when you are undersaddle is the same thing that is happening at feeding time. I would focus on developing better behavior on the ground- even if I had to separate him from the group for awhile. This would include standing and waiting, not charging in on you at feeding time, no rushing or looking around when being led and always maintaining control of the head- not tossing and throwing it around and keeping it low when haltering and bridling.

Next I would practice a method that will help re-focus him on you when riding. This is done by bending and turning him anytime he does the following- look around, speed up, veer away or puts the head up. If done consistently and before heading out to trail ride, I have found that horses will remain calmer and more relaxed.

You might also want to learn about how horse learn here are a couple articles that might help;

http://www.successfulhorse.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id= 25&Itemid=57

jyates · 03-13-2009, 01:20 PM

Thanks very much for the link.....I'll get to reading it and see if I can't help the owner of this horse to work with him and see how it goes!

joustinggirl · 03-13-2009, 02:13 PM

I have a horse completely on the other end of the spectrum. She is a trusting and willing mare that was kicked in the face when her young rider went to close to the rear of another horse on a trail ride. Now she panics whenever a strange horse turns around and she is near. It will take a long time to fix this too.

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03-13-2009, 06:59 AM
jyates Coming two Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: SouthWest Arkansas Posts: 1,678	Can you train a horse to not be agressive to other horses when riding? Hi all, We've got a gelding horse that is going on 5 or 6 years old now that is apt to "go after" other horses during trail riding from time to time. No kicking as of yet, but he will attempt to bite or nip certain horses from time to time and it makes the rider have to be on edge to pull him away when he attempts it. Thus making it not a fun ride for the rider of said horse. Of course his attempts make the horses "gone after" nervous and they are watching him instead of paying attention to where they are going and they make sure they say out of his nipping range and they are shy to get near him so if they pass in a trail they move past quickly so they don't get "nipped". He's a largest and youngest horse and out of our 4 horses (all geldings) he is the 2nd in pecking order. He pretty well has the run of the other 2 when they are in the pasture and he will run them off their hay not to eat their hay but only to show he's the boss of them. Of course when he runs them off their hay he goes back to his pile and they will come back to their pile and eat and everything will be fine for a while until he decides he wants some more "fun" and he will run them away again eventually. Does anyone have any ideas on what we can do to change this nipping / agressive habit of his? Thanks, Jim __________________

03-13-2009, 07:39 AM
seerfarm Bombproof Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Out with the Herd! Posts: 9,634	Have you noticed that this happens regardless of where he may be in the trail riding line? IE: Have you tried allowing him to be lead horse and place everyone else behind him? My other thought on the matter is that he is attempting (during trail rides) to move up in the heard so to speak... Another horse is probably going to be your best teacher in the matter. Pony him out with a horse that is higher in the herd, and see if that doesn't correct his nipping issue by allowing the head horse to keep him in his place. __________________ "One must be a god to be able to tell successes from failures without making a mistake".

03-13-2009, 08:02 AM
jyates Coming two Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: SouthWest Arkansas Posts: 1,678	A lot of the riding we do isn't necessarliy in line formation since a lot of where we ride is broad but we do ride as a group in a broad path, but you are right.....a lot of the time he's not in the front but he doesn't seem to want to be the leader either. But that is indeed something we can try but I would rather him shake the habit than us having to cater to him about where he "wants" to be. Out of the 4 horses he's got it over on 2 of them so I don't think he's trying to "move up" on them and I don't believe he has nipped at the boss as of yet. What do you think of a small whack on the neck and a "no" when he tries to take a nip? __________________

03-13-2009, 08:07 AM
seerfarm Bombproof Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Out with the Herd! Posts: 9,634	If you can isolate when "He attempts" his nips then yes, it is easier to nip it in the bud. (Working him out of it, by refocussing his attention) Being careful however to make sure, that it is an aggression response that you are correcting for, versus a response to herd dynamics. __________________ "One must be a god to be able to tell successes from failures without making a mistake".

03-13-2009, 08:19 AM
CowhorseGal Long Yearling Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,198	I agree with working him out of it..get his feet moving. small circles at the trot, figure eights, leg yeilding, stopping, backing, etc... all with a bit of hustle.. make him think that everytime he acts ornery he will but put to work.. hard..... __________________ Quality Peformance horses with foundation breeding http://blackcanyonpaints.webs.com/

03-13-2009, 08:23 AM
dimpleflirt Coming two Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,559	I get what seerfarm is saying about the herd order bit but in my mind the rider should be the herd leader of the horse they are on one and set the horse straight.I noticed my gelding that I sold would try to keep his underdog from passing him in races by posturing at him but he would be reprimanded for it.You need to discipline the horse in some form or break him off from the group every time he attempts to bite at a horse lower on the pecking order.You would be pushing him out of the group every time he does this "naughty " behavior as another horse would .You can start by turning him away from the group and going back to the back of the line every time he starts to act like he's incline to bite, if this doesn't help after being consistent , I would pop him on the shoulder with a crop and give a verbal. If you don't want to go that route then try putting him at the back of the group, some leaders like to bring up the back of the group and feel like they are herding them.If it were an alpha female they often like to take the front of the pack ,but each animal can be different. Good luck __________________ "Lord, Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference."

03-13-2009, 08:38 AM
jyates Coming two Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: SouthWest Arkansas Posts: 1,678	Thanks for the advice so far folks.....good ideas all the way around....and he is "Posturing" as someone said..being passed does make him "mad" (if horses get mad that is) and he may be 2nd in pecking order when he is in the pasture but when he is being ridden he needs to learn to pay attention to his owner and not what the other horses are doing. I believe he needs a strong hand and A LOT of riding...he's probably had more riding time in the past few months than he's had all of his life combined and he needs more, more, more,....his owner calls him a "permanent 3 year old" be cause of his agressiveness and sometimes "temper tantrums". No bucking, but he has a way of showing his displeasure when things aren't going to suit him. __________________

03-13-2009, 09:38 AM
Sonseeahray's_girl Kid Safe Join Date: May 2006 Location: On Top of the World! Posts: 5,034	Here's a sub-question, and sorry if this is off topic... What if you have two geldings who do NOT get along in the pasture? As in the one tries to aggressively go after the other one all the time? Is it possible to ride with them in the same group? In my mind, the underdog would be freaking out all the time due to being nervous of the aggressive one can THIS be controlled during rides? I understand that there's no controlling the herd dynamic out in the pasture, but what about on rides? __________________ Proud Mom to Sonseeahray (Buckskin Arab/QH), Denny (Bay TWH), Shoshanni (Black/White LacLaCroix Indian Pony), Ringo (Bay QH/Morgan), Finnegan (Palomino QH/Morgan), Keegan(Bay Roan QH)

03-13-2009, 09:57 AM
jyates Coming two Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: SouthWest Arkansas Posts: 1,678	I don't think it's off topic at all.....one of our horses is totally scared of the agressor and when the scared one gets near the agressor you can sense the tension between them. My first instinct is to treat the horse as one of my children and be firm and constant with discipline but it's not my horse and I don't want to advise what the owner should do when I'm not certain myself! __________________

03-13-2009, 10:03 AM
AngelPA Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: PA Posts: 666	Sonsee ~ I have THE MOST chicken hearted mare in the world (Seriously) she is lower then low on the pecking order, even the dwarf goats rank higher BUT when I'm her back, she turns into wonder woman. Threw me, and her trust in me, she knows I have her 'back' and nothing will make her question my askings, weather it's going right next to the alpha in the herd, leading, following, going by the 'scary' monsters what ever they may be. When I'm with or on her, we are a team, and she knows I wont put her harms way. That trust didn't happen over night now, but it happend fairly quickly. As to the orginal post on here, That fella's IMO is just a little stinker. I'd personaly do a quick jerk N release on the opistiate rein and growl at him. A lot of people will say that's awful on thier mouth, notice I said a QUICK jerk and release, might not be everybodys way but it would be what I would be doing. The above posts' are good opinions as well. Good Luck! He sounds like a good fella with a bit of little boy in him.

03-13-2009, 10:09 AM
Sonseeahray's_girl Kid Safe Join Date: May 2006 Location: On Top of the World! Posts: 5,034	Okay, so it IS a surmountable problem, but it takes correcting the errant horse when being aggressive, and trust between the submissive horse and it's rider. Hmm...interesting, and heartening from my standpoint, since I foresee this problem in my near future! At least I know now that I can control the situation when everyone is under saddle, even if I can't be out in the pasture at all times. __________________ Proud Mom to Sonseeahray (Buckskin Arab/QH), Denny (Bay TWH), Shoshanni (Black/White LacLaCroix Indian Pony), Ringo (Bay QH/Morgan), Finnegan (Palomino QH/Morgan), Keegan(Bay Roan QH)

03-13-2009, 10:10 AM
EquineAlberta Bombproof Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 9,673	jyates, my solution to this would depend greatly on the horse's general temperment; do you think he feels threatened, or is it that he is bored? is he the kind of horse to stir up trouble for entertainment, or is he socially insecure? If he is the kind to be bored or to stir up trouble for entertainment, then active discipline (Smacking him, circling him and so on) may be seen as a reward and not a punishment...kid of like how kids act up when they feel ignored/bored. Any attention is better than no attention. If he is socially insecure, then discipline would be unfair, but circling may refocus his mind. If he is just plain a jerk, then again discipline may not work...it may just rechanel his agression to his rider and a fight will ensue. If the rider takes this approach he must be prepared for a battle. An insecure rider should not discipline a challenging/jerky horse. I like the idea of putting him in front. I would also consider having his rider actually ride the entire trail....not just be passive. So school the horse just like if he was in a training ring. This will help the horse learn to focus on his rider. This should start from the moment the rider gets on, and not just when he misbehaves. After a few rides with him focused on his rider, then try letting him relax on the ride home and slowly let the "free" time increase. Karen __________________ [i] A horse doesn't care how many ribbons you have won, or who you rode with...they just care you listen to them and do your best. A good horse person is always learning and knows that even their students can be their teachers. [i]

03-13-2009, 10:17 AM
jyates Coming two Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: SouthWest Arkansas Posts: 1,678	I'm sure it's a pain in the rear and makes a nice ride less enjoyable when you have to keep your eyes on your horse to make sure they don't nip or bully other horses and I'm for whatever it takes to communicate to the horse that certain behavior won't be permitted in the least. He is very possessive about his feed....when you feed grain (don't do it very often) he really is right on your rear as you walk to the feed bowls and where the other horses will go to their respective bowls and wait for you to come and dump in their bowls he wants to stick with you and you end up between him and the "boss" and the fireworks fly.....pretty dangerous place to be....I've had to carry a dressage whip with me and had to drive him away from me so I didn't end up sandwiched between 2 horses! __________________

03-13-2009, 10:41 AM
Lady_MCSE Kid Safe Join Date: May 2005 Location: Shytown, IL Posts: 7,040	Try washing off the makeup and getting a new hairdoo. That might help him be less freaked out. Just teasin', since I see you're getting real advice and I have nothing valuable to add. Dippity doo. __________________ Well on my way to "Pasture Pet."

03-13-2009, 10:55 AM
dimpleflirt Coming two Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,559	I would keep taking the whip with you at feed time and make all horses keep their distance from you at feed time ...this is where YOUR ALPHA behavior should start. I would not jerk the bit unless its a spur of the moment thing you HAVE to do, but as I stated earlier either remove him instantly from the situation or verbal and pop him.I don't like to jerk on horse mouths as punishment but I understand you may have to snatch the reins to stop him mid bite. If he is posturing I would get his attention when he starts and redirect him in some way to help him forget his train of though. __________________ "Lord, Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference."

03-13-2009, 11:07 AM
successfulhorse Newborn Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 9	After reading your responses to others, a couple of things come to mind. What you are experiencing is learned or trained behavior. What is happening when you are undersaddle is the same thing that is happening at feeding time. I would focus on developing better behavior on the ground- even if I had to separate him from the group for awhile. This would include standing and waiting, not charging in on you at feeding time, no rushing or looking around when being led and always maintaining control of the head- not tossing and throwing it around and keeping it low when haltering and bridling. Next I would practice a method that will help re-focus him on you when riding. This is done by bending and turning him anytime he does the following- look around, speed up, veer away or puts the head up. If done consistently and before heading out to trail ride, I have found that horses will remain calmer and more relaxed. You might also want to learn about how horse learn here are a couple articles that might help; http://www.successfulhorse.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id= 25&Itemid=57

03-13-2009, 01:20 PM
jyates Coming two Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: SouthWest Arkansas Posts: 1,678	Thanks very much for the link.....I'll get to reading it and see if I can't help the owner of this horse to work with him and see how it goes! __________________

03-13-2009, 02:13 PM
joustinggirl Greenbroke Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Boones Mill, Virgina Posts: 3,816	I have a horse completely on the other end of the spectrum. She is a trusting and willing mare that was kicked in the face when her young rider went to close to the rear of another horse on a trail ride. Now she panics whenever a strange horse turns around and she is near. It will take a long time to fix this too. __________________ Pink Tiger says 'Grrrrrr'