Difficulty with Sidepass/Leg Yield

[NoniMe]

I am hoping someone has some hints on how to get Tango to get that crossing action going on. He *can* do it - he has an enormous cross when he's spooked!! - but either I'm not cueing it effectively or he doesn't quite know it when he's not scared.

He does go sideways; he gets the whole idea of moving to the side while still going forward. He resists the bend, but will give in after a bit. And he sometimes crosses the fronts. I have NO idea if he's crossing the hinds, because I can't see. He has good flexion, and is bending well around my leg when we work circles...I just can't seem to transfer that idea to the forward movement while leg yielding.

So does anyone have any exercises or drills that I can use to get him going in the right direction? I know it's not an easy maneuver, but I want to try anyway.

Thanks, all!

Best-
Noni

[Slim Pikkens]

If going to the right are you moving your right leg off his side - to "open the door". If you keep it against him he will think you want to go forward. You want your calf muscle off his rib cage. I start in a snaffle and use my left rein to control forward movement and slightly tip the nose to the right then apply pressure with my left leg. If you get just one step release all pressure and allow the horse to rest 15 sec. or so then try again.

[NoniMe]

Yes, I keep the 'door open', with no leg, to the direction I want him to go in. And when we get a step, he gets a break. We've gotten several steps in at once, and then we break. I can take him at a trot about 1/2 way across the arena at the angle, but then he loses the movement and momentum...and he's not got that arc I see on videos.

I suspect he gets tired, as this is a newish movement for us...and thus he gets frequent breaks and work in other areas (transitions, or whatever) and then we return to it and try again.

Thanks for the suggestions about the nose tipping...I don't think I'm doing that. I'll see what happens today.

Best-
Noni

[jesterjigger]

These are the things that helped me with teaching my mare to leg yield.

First I worked on spiral circles with her at the trot. That's where you start out riding a large circle, and then decrease the size until it's as small of a circle as the horse can trot while maintaing it's bend and balance. Once you do one good small circle start asking your horse to sidepass out onto a bigger circle again. Do this on an open side of the arena (so that you're sidepassing toward the furthest away short side). Practice this a lot, practice doing it quickly once your horse gets the hang of it.

If this doesn't translate well over to leg yielding on a straight line then I have another exercise, this one involves sidepassing, but my mare could do it pretty well once we did spiral circles. Ride toward a corner, about 15-20 feet from the corner sidepass the horse away from the wall, to the next wall, making an arc around the corner, as soon as you reach the wall walk or trot forward. Go another lap around the arena and do the same thing. You'll have to practice controlling the hips and shoulder, depending on if you stop before the corner or if you ride past the corner and stop 15-20 feet from the corner with your back to it.

Something else that may help is setting up physical obstacles. Once your horse knows how to leg yield, but just isn't getting it done fast enough, a barrier of some kind might help. Like setting a barrel (or a person) toward the end of the leg yield, so you need to leg yield faster in order to be on the right side of the barrel when you pass it.

If you're doing this for dressage purporses, or not, even, I highly recommend the book Lessons with Lendon. She breaks the exercises down into small parts and makes it very easy to do.

One thing that really helped my leg yields was understanding the importance of the outside rein. If your horse doesn't have the outside rein to leg yield into, then your leg yields aren't going to go well, and the horse is going to be popping its head all over the place, making it harder for you to contain, and then direct, the energy. I find that if I visualize my inside seat bone feeling heavier that helps a lot, and do lots of half halts, every stride when you're beginning, to help the horse stay balanced.

I forgot to say, I wouldn't "keep the door open" because that will throw off your balance and make it harder for the horse to do, especially at the trot. Plus you need that outside leg to be ready on the horse's side to help half halt or help control the shoulder, or haunches, if they start leading. Ok, one more thing, "tipping the nose", I'm guessing you're doing this for western since you're talking about tipping the nose now, it may help, but in the long run your leg yields won't be better for it.

[TLCowgirl3597]

From what your sayin' I'm gathering your looking for more of a counterflex yield. (keeping the nose & entire body flexed to the left while moving toward the right). I ask for a few steps counterflex (body curved to the left) moving off right, then I let them come in to a left circle for the release...It keeps them soft. Start out small & work your way up. If they think of it as an exercise that they're turning in the direction their nose is tipped at the end it keeps em' from wanting to out think you & get stiff(i.e. were going right or straight at the end of this so why is my nose & body going left...?). By using this you can keep em' soft for a counterarc spin, loping circles, or just headin' across the arena. Also the first week an barrier is a good helper(i.e. a barrel) Head at it on the right side then counterflex to the left side a few steps before it & turn it right. Good luck.

[NoniMe]

Hi, Jesterjigger.

Some detailed info there, thanks!

No, it's not for western or dressage; just for learning it so Tango can be a better all around horse with more maneuverability when asked for it. LOL.

I'll give your method a go, too...see which he prefers. Options are always good, especially for me and Tango.

Best-
Noni

[EquineAlberta]

Sidepass and leg yeild are two different things, and require different aids. Leg yeild should be step 1. In a leg yeild the horse's body should be straight, with just a slight tip of the nose away from the direction of travel. There should not be "arc" in the body

A side pass is a western thing...sideways only.

A half pass is forward and sideways, with the horse bent in the direction it is going. A horse should be able to do travers before being asked to do a half pass....all the half pass is, is a travers done across the diagonal.

WHich one is it you are trying to do?

Karen

[NoniMe]

All of them, EA, but for now, we'll start at the beginning. Which, for me and Tango, is usually the hard part. Generally because I can't always figure out where the beginning *is*. LOL.

I am wanting to get to those gorgeous large somethings (at this point, I don't know what they're called), with the arc away from the direction of travel; like direction of travel to the left, his body looking like "C" (well, not quite that arced, but...). Half passes can wait a while, but those will eventually come, too. He does do the whole diagonal work, but without any arc or tipping of the nose. And today, when I held the rein steady and actually gave him something to arc into and got the outside leg waaaay off, he did some really pretty crossovers fore and aft. I was proud. Now, I'm not sure what they were. But I liked them. And so did he. LOL.

I'd also like to have Tango be able to simply move to the side from a walk/stand; he's struggling with that concept - he keeps turning around. I figure it's me, not him...I'll always take the blame for improper cuing, because I know he's had more training than I have.

I don't have the first clue what travers is...

We did a lot of experimenting with 'pulsing' the outside stirrup while going 'round poles today...it helped him keep pace, and helped him avoid the poles pretty well, and helped me keep my weight in the proper place. He is such a goof...we had worked on poles, and then I took him off the pattern for some relaxing and cantering around...and he headed right back into the pattern and did it by himself (meaning I did not use legs or reins...), weaving in and out. Apparently, once he understands what he's supposed to do, he likes doing it.

So it was an interesting ride today...the pulsing thing is something I did by accident one day, and he responded by moving toward that foot...so I use it now to help direct him. I'm working on the light contact thing, and it's not always easy.

Anyway, lest I hijack my own thread too much farther...EA, does that better explain what I'm trying to do?

Best-
Noni

[EquineAlberta]

Hmmm....so you want him bent left, but travelling right, and crossing all four over? Can't help with that as the closest thing in dressage would be a leg yeild, but a correct leg yeild requires a straight body and only bend in the neck. Any pictures/video?

Almost sounds like a shoulder in on a diagonal line, but only the fronts cross on a shoulder in if done properly.

Well, whatever it is, I am sure you and your horse will have fun and learn along the way to figuring out how to do it! (when I had my hunter mare, Marigold as a kid I would make things up and try them just because I wanted too...it really made me learn what affects each part of my horse!)

Karen

[NoniMe]

Like this...hope this explains it better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h8dvJhggVA

Course, we're not going so well, but that's what I mean. Maybe I'm thinking of a backwards halfpass...

And yes, we do a lot of experimenting...I learn tons, and Tango gets exasperated...but then he gets a carrot, and is happy again.

Best-
Noni

[EquineAlberta]

That is a lovely leg yeild. If you could watch from overtop, you would see there is very little to no bend in the body, it is all in the neck. A half pass has bend in the body.

So in a leg yeild to the wall, the horse is more or less parallel to the wall..

In a sidepass you will see the nose and haunches leading the way.

I wonder if that is where your issue stems from, just that you aren't knowing the exact mechanics? A leg yeild where there is the appearance of bend in the body is an evasion and is due to the shoulder popping out. Usually because the rider has forgot to bring their legs back. Your pony might be having trouble maintaining it because the request is putting him off balance, and expecting far too much from his hind leg that is being asked to step under and across, rather than just up and across.

Karen

[NoniMe]

Isn't it a lovely example? Trust me...Tango is nowhere near that.

O.K., lemme see if I've got this right.

For a leg yield, Tango's neck should be bent AWAY from the direction of travel, but his hinds are not crossing significantly, and there's no arc in the body itself, only in the neck.

For a sidepass, Tango's neck and hiney should be TOWARD the direction of travel.

I have no clue as to a halfpass direction; I got lost there. Is that just an exaggerated leg yield?

Your pony might be having trouble maintaining it because the request is putting him off balance, and expecting far too much from his hind leg that is being asked to step under and across, rather than just up and across.

EA, this would NOT be the first time I've ever confused my poor boy. He tries as hard as possible, too, to give me what I want. LOL, poor boy. Probably sitting there in his stall saying "good grief, Mom, get it together...I am not a PRETZEL!!!"

I am so appreciative of your help, EA. Thank you ever so much!

Best-
Noni

[EquineAlberta]

Noni, I love your posts...you make me think!

Anyway, I think you have the leg yeild right now"

Leg yeild: Walk/trot only. A basic lateral movement. Horse's neck and body more or less straight, but some bend in the neck away from the direction of travel is acceptable. All 4 legs move forward and sideways. Depending on the horse's conformation, they may cross, just come in front of the other leg.

But I think you have Side pass and Half pass confused:

Side Pass: Not a english thing. Great skill to have, particularly for a trail horse though. Horse moves sideways with no forward. Like how the trail class horses have to move sideways over a pole on the ground. I think this is just a walk thing.

Half Pass: Considered advanced lateral work...kind of the top of the lateral work tree. Horse moves foward and sideways, and is bent into the direction of travel. Shoulders should lead haunches slightly, and the outside legs should clearly cross in front of the inside legs. As I said before it is a Travers ridden across a diagonal line...a travers is where the horse is moving along the track, bent to the inside, with its haunches coming off the track. (some call it a haunches in)

Karen

[NoniMe]

Side pass - just a walk thing...very much more sideways than a leg yield, and 'western' or trail.

Half pass: top of the tree...head and hiney toward direction of travel.

Travers: 'haunches in' I understand...can't do it yet, but I understand. LOL.

Bingo! You've got me sorted out. Tango appreciates it, and so do I. And I'm glad to make you think...one of us has to, right? LOLOL.

Best-
Noni

[MatchMaker]

My favorite way to think of a leg yield is as a softening to the aids on one side. The horse can have a small bend through his body, but it should not be extreme. The movement should, to begin with be 3/4 forward motion and 1/4 sideways. Lose the forward motion and you're apt to get a crooked horse.

As for teaching it, I like to start at a walk. Being your horse off the rail and push with your inside leg as his inside hind leg is coming forward. (This is the pulsing action and it works wonders). You coordinate that with a gentle seat cue and a slight opening of the outside rein. The inside rein is supportive, it merely maintains the horses attention. Once the horse softens nicely at a walk, try a sitting trot, again "pulse" with the leg when the inside hind comes forward.


That's what works best for me and my horse, but everyone's different. Good luck!

[NoniMe]

Matchmaker, thanks! That description of the pulsing is very helpful...

I had a lesson on Tango today, for the first time in several months. He was SOOOO good, and we accomplished a good leg yield while our instructor was watching! YAY us. And there were some folks watching, and one (a jumper who is locally 'famous') said "wow, there were some moments where you two were utterly perfect together! nicely done!" and when I told her "shoot, I'll take one perfect moment per ride...I've only been riding a bit over a year", she said "no way. Really?? You sure don't look like it!"

Made me grin from ear to ear. She also said "he has got gorgeous movements - even the cowboys {pointing to the cowboys...} thought he was a gorgeous horse. They'll be in awe when I tell them you've been riding 1 1/2 years..." and then volunteered to help jump train him.

Days like that, with compliments like those, from people like her...well, it just doesn't get much better. I also showed Tango's tricks off - opening/closing the gate, walking without a lead, backing from a waggling finger, and his best and newest: "putting on" his own bridle (well, taking the bit into his mouth without any assistance from me...) and she said "he's so smart!!" I told him he's scary smart...and I have to outthink him on occasion just to keep him busy. LOL.

Anyway, Matchmaker, thanks for the explanation, and big thanks to EA for getting my head straightened out about what I was actually trying to do...and how to do it. LOL, Tango is FAR happier now that I'm not asking for hind leg crossings...

Best-
Noni

[HorseLVR]

You and Tango never cease to amaze me, inspire me and make me think. Sounds like you had a totally awesome day!!!

[beezwing]

Hey Noni...borrowing a horse that is trained to do the movement, learn the cue...and then see if the mighty steed knows what you are asking

helps for me
k

[NoniMe]

Beez, problem is, I'm at a primarily western barn. There are a few of us who ride english, but I rarely am at the barn at the same time. I have to do a whole lot of watching (thanks, YouTube) and then experimenting, and seeing what Tango does when I do this, that or the other thing...and then trying to replicate what I see into how it feels. We do use a trainer, especially while I'm in school, and she works Tango 2x week, and gives me one lesson a week...if I can make it, lol. So he is being taught what to do, and so am I...but sometimes, it doesn't come together.

Today, it did. He did act up a bit...kept eying an open tailgate on a big truck; apparently, he finally figured out it wasn't coming into the arena, wasn't going to eat him, and then decided to do what I was asking. LOLOL. But other than that, it was a wonderful ride.

HorseLVR, you're silly. Sweet and dear, but silly. I don't see where I can inspire anyone, you know? I just struggle through and manage to find a way to make it work most of the time...as for making you think, well...that's because you're kind enough to try to figure me out!

Best-
Noni

[beezwing]

Here is Jane Savoie explaining, sound is kind of wonky but it works

I am not there yet, so no real advice from me...I am thrilled to pieces to be working on my seat and managing a half half halt


blessed is the youtube

I forget how lucky I am to have fallen into the only local dressage barn in the area, I think I am getting spoiled.