Chain and Wire Bits, clarification.

sundancer maiden · 10-29-2009, 10:49 AM

I am talking about the slender wires and bicycle type chains. Is there ever really a time when they are justified?? I mean, I see those and feel sick. I could never imagine putting either of those things in a horses mouth.
Yes, I am talking about the chainsaw looking chains and the wire that looks like it could be used for jewelry.

LoveMyHorse18 · 10-29-2009, 10:52 AM

I have always been a believer that all bits, in the correct hands, are a proper training device.
HOWEVER, there is an exception to every rule.

dunamovin · 10-29-2009, 11:02 AM

My feeling about these bits is the horse doesn't need a wire bit he needs a better trainer. I've seen to many scarred, cut up tongues to ever use one.

beth55051 · 10-29-2009, 03:34 PM

You'll never find one of those bits in my tack shed. I don't even like the hard nosed mechanical hackamores.

I've only ever used even a twisted wire on one horse and that's due to past harsh bits ruining his mouth. The poor horse just can't "feel" a smooth snaffle. But we're working on getting him back into one.

arabiancowgirl · 10-29-2009, 03:55 PM

I believe for a person with talented hands and a talented horse, this bit could be useful. I don't believe this would make a good colt starting bit. I know if my arab had it on she would flip, literally!

evelynwolfe · 10-29-2009, 03:59 PM

I didn't know it at the time until I got my boy back. We sent a 3 year old off to a known trainer of the area to be broke out for my sister. When we got him back they had been using a twisted wire snaffle on a 3 year old! Needless to say he came back head shy and would NOT take a bit. Years later we're still working on that, found a lovely solution with an easy soft hack. It has taught us an important lesson...stop in and check on the people you have entusted your horse to. We now do all of our own starting to avoid this situation in the future.

There is no reason in opinion to have a wire bit in the barn, or a chain bit in the barn...If your horse needs that then the horse has to go back to training. I've seen too many scarred mouths and too much blood tinged foam...

Rockin GR · 10-29-2009, 04:38 PM

I'll be the odd man out and say that I've seen them used well, but by very well trained hands.
First off, a true "chain" mouth bit is one of the softest mouth pieces there is because it doesn't apply any pressure to the roof of the mouth. But I believe you are referring to the ones that look kinda like a chainsaw chain.
My best friend had a couple of horses that the mule mouth (what you are calling a chain mouth) did wonders for, but they were never abused. One horse is the definition of a free runner and would run through his rate spots sometimes. He ran through a lot of bits (and not for lack of training! It's just Jake) so every once in a while she will put the mule mouth on him to get his rate back. But she doesn't compete with it.
The other horse that I saw that it helped was her colt. Total opposite of the above horse. Total dead head, but was bred to run. She worked on him for 2 years trying to make him a barrel horse but he was dropping his shoulders and no amount of kicking or lifting was going to pick him up. Put the Muley on him one day and it worked like a charm. Rode him in it off and on for about a month, and he's all the sudden pulling 2D and the occasional 1D check. But never did either horse ever get pulled or yanked or so much as a red mark!

Now, the tiny twisted wires, I have no use for. I have used many bits with some form of twist on the mouth piece, but I won't use one of those itty bitty ones that will cut a mouth.

NorthernHorseGirl · 10-29-2009, 09:24 PM

The only hard-mouthed horse I've ever had was totally responsive to a mechanical hackamore. Shows that she wasn't actually hard-mouthed.
I cringe when I see those kinds of bits and have little respect for anyone who'd use them.

eventergirl09 · 10-29-2009, 09:37 PM

To me, horses weren't meant for medal in their mouthes anyway..we did that to them, and they work for us to make us happy, so why should we take total advantage of them working for us by putting the harshest thing possible in their mouth. Just my opinion, so don't rip me a new one.

AnChap · 10-29-2009, 09:51 PM

I use a fairly thin twisted snaffle, not thin thin, but I've had no problems with it, but I'm afraid to even step into this discussion, all I can say is if you use it right and they aren't being hurt, I don't see why it can't be a training tool in the right hands, as long as you are careful and not hurting the horse. It doesn't have to be used forever either, just as a step. Any bit can be horrible if it's used wrong

ChasnCans · 10-29-2009, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin GR

I'll be the odd man out and say that I've seen them used well, but by very well trained hands.
First off, a true "chain" mouth bit is one of the softest mouth pieces there is because it doesn't apply any pressure to the roof of the mouth. But I believe you are referring to the ones that look kinda like a chainsaw chain.
My best friend had a couple of horses that the mule mouth (what you are calling a chain mouth) did wonders for, but they were never abused. One horse is the definition of a free runner and would run through his rate spots sometimes. He ran through a lot of bits (and not for lack of training! It's just Jake) so every once in a while she will put the mule mouth on him to get his rate back. But she doesn't compete with it.
The other horse that I saw that it helped was her colt. Total opposite of the above horse. Total dead head, but was bred to run. She worked on him for 2 years trying to make him a barrel horse but he was dropping his shoulders and no amount of kicking or lifting was going to pick him up. Put the Muley on him one day and it worked like a charm. Rode him in it off and on for about a month, and he's all the sudden pulling 2D and the occasional 1D check. But never did either horse ever get pulled or yanked or so much as a red mark!

Now, the tiny twisted wires, I have no use for. I have used many bits with some form of twist on the mouth piece, but I won't use one of those itty bitty ones that will cut a mouth.

I agree with you here. I've used them. And had no issue. In the right hands, and if the horse requires and works well in the bit so be it. We have two like that in our tack rooms. A wire and chain one. These are not for green horses nor for a colt in training.

evelynwolfe · 10-30-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChasnCans

I agree with you here. I've used them. And had no issue. In the right hands, and if the horse requires and works well in the bit so be it. We have two like that in our tack rooms. A wire and chain one. These are not for green horses nor for a colt in training.

I'm sorry, the whole thing with my one horse has me a little tiffy... If you do use one and don't draw blood, good for you, the world needs more hands like you in the horse world.

But seriously, you should have to be licensed to even own one of those, much less use them. I've seen too many bloody mouths and scarred up lips and tongues.

sundancer maiden · 10-30-2009, 12:40 AM

Please don't get mad or feel like you have to defend yourself! This is one of those topics that we can use to understand different ideas.
I had gone over the posts and gave it a lot of thought. When I came back on one of the thoughts I had was brought up. Needing a license to use! Just like there are many people who should have to go through training and get a license to have kids!!
I see hundreds of bits on the market that not only have the ability to cause intense pain, but that can do physical damage; the bloody, cut mouths that have been mentioned.
Oldbear, if the horse is talented shouldn't it be able to work beautifully on body cues alone. People shouldn't have to be "in a horse's mouth" hardly at all. Even a light bit could give the extra help then?
All of the people here care very much about their horses. We complain and share "pet peeves" about the people who are the ones that worry me. Of course there are "big name" trainers who shouldn't be allowed near a horse!
I guess my main point is that there are so many potentially cruel bits, (spurs, etc) on the market for the general public to buy. I do believe there are way too many people who abuse this equiptment just because they can.
Why are there so many? Who comes up with some of these things?
I may be going on and on too much, but how many horses get ruined by people using things that only a professional should be able to get ahold of??

AnChap · 10-30-2009, 08:47 AM

I think you're right, it's a hard subject, and it comes down to the user. If you're careless and harsh, you're hurting any horse. I use a thinner than some bit, but no matter WHAT bit I use, I always check my horse's mouth carefully after each ride. And I'm always training myself to be a better rider so I can help my horse and we can get to a point (which we're close to) that Ihardly touch the bit anyway.

Rockin GR · 10-30-2009, 10:50 AM

But keep in mind, ANYTHING, even a halter, can be harsh in the wrong hands. I run Mia in a Bozo Side Pull, but even that can be mean if you were to go to yanking on it. Just because they don't have a mouthpiece, or because it doesn't look like it's harsh, doesn't mean abuse can't happen. The best tool for your horses face is soft, quiet hands.

NorthernHorseGirl · 10-30-2009, 12:52 PM

The thing is, if you have a horse that goes well in a twisted wire, thin mouthpiece, whatever kind of nasty bit like that, and you have soft hands so it doesn't hurt the horse, why would you even use one of these bits?

To me, that means that your horse doesn't need it, so why use it? You might never use it harshly but if you ever fall off, for most people, the first instinct is to grip the reins and use them to hold yourself on. Then, suddenly, the bit could very well cut or damage your horse's mouth. Or a rein gets hooked on something, same thing.
Horses often do foolish things that we're not prepared for. Why take that risk?

Horselady44 · 10-30-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin GR

But keep in mind, ANYTHING, even a halter, can be harsh in the wrong hands. I run Mia in a Bozo Side Pull, but even that can be mean if you were to go to yanking on it. Just because they don't have a mouthpiece, or because it doesn't look like it's harsh, doesn't mean abuse can't happen. The best tool for your horses face is soft, quiet hands.

Very true...there is all sorts of different equipment out there...simply because there are all sorts of different types of riding, different people, different horses...and it just all depends on what you do with your horse to determine what kind of equipment you use. Anything CAN be harsh to the horse like said here a halter can be used as abuse...its all in the way you use things. You need to know how and when to correct a horse. All equipment can be harsh...no matter what it is. Its all in how you use it...and why you use it. IMO. Personally I would never have these in my tack shed...as I have no use for it...Im mainly a trail/endurance rider. But, of course like all threads and posts...this is just my opinion

Rockin GR · 10-30-2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthernHorseGirl

The thing is, if you have a horse that goes well in a twisted wire, thin mouthpiece, whatever kind of nasty bit like that, and you have soft hands so it doesn't hurt the horse, why would you even use one of these bits?

To me, that means that your horse doesn't need it, so why use it? You might never use it harshly but if you ever fall off, for most people, the first instinct is to grip the reins and use them to hold yourself on. Then, suddenly, the bit could very well cut or damage your horse's mouth. Or a rein gets hooked on something, same thing.
Horses often do foolish things that we're not prepared for. Why take that risk?

A knowledgable person might choose to use them because every combination of bit and mouth piece can achieve something just a little bit different. Some give you lift, some give you whoa, some give you bend, some can even help take the bend out of one. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Everyone I have can ride in a plain, fat snaffe, just working on basics, but that doesn't mean I'd try to rope on Deuce in one! He'd never rate, non-the-less stop!!! Mia had to graduate from the snaffle to a jr cowhorse with a twisted dog-bone mouth (before the Bozo) because she needed some lift to keep her from dropping her shoulders when we started adding speed around the barrels.
The Red Mare/Hagatha is super well trained and soft as any, and you can ride her in a halter. But get her in the roping box and she gets on her muscle so much, that she needs a shank snaffle to get the best whoa.
Everyhorse will respond to every bit just a little differently. I couldn't ride Mia in a small twist, or a mule bit because her reaction to them would be dramatic, no matter how soft my hands are (this is the main reason she went to a sidepull--her individual reaction). But Deuce, he'd be fine with one as long as my hands stayed soft. But he wouldn't react well to a mechanical hack, because he doesn't like that much leverage on his nose--so he doesn't get ridden in anything with a nose band.

singing tree · 10-30-2009, 02:12 PM

This is pretty weird, but my mare hates snaffles of any kind, and much prefers a western curb. but obviously, plain old snaffles are the most common type of bit. I personally do not like "contact" bits. I want to give the lightest signal, and then have the horse respond on a loose rein. But I know that dressage folks do different things and need that light contact.

So, I would pretty much agree that different bits have their place. Certainly cutting up a horses mouth serves no good purpose whatsoever, and if you can't ride with your current bit and not do that, you should most certainly change bits and pressure. But don't judge another who uses the bit a little differently and has a happy, responsive horse.

EquineAlberta · 10-30-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

I've only ever used even a twisted wire on one horse and that's due to past harsh bits ruining his mouth. The poor horse just can't "feel" a smooth snaffle. But we're working on getting him back into one.

A horse's mouth cannot scar, so the idea of being "hard mouthed" refers to tension in the neck/jaw,rather than actual hardness in the tissues. Just something to think about. Might be better to try a bit with a different action that the horse has not yet learned how to brace against.

In general, I find it odd when people look to bits to solve issues with the horse's posture...dropping shoulders, not stepping under to halt...these are issues to do with the horse's balance and use of its back, and have little to do with the horses head/jaw. All a harsh bit can do is tell the horse what not to do by inflicting pain...wouldn't it make more sense to show the horse what to do using training? And given that, then shouldn't professionals be the ones in least need to use the "sharp", harsh bits?

I do agree that horses that are involved in high adrenaline sports such as roping and barrel racing may have trouble listening to gentle aids and may need more of a "yell" to get through to them...but the idea that you aren't causing pain in the instant you pull...well...I have trouble believing that. The horse also lives in constant worry about the eventual pull.

I liked northernhorsegirls comments a lot.
Karen

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10-29-2009, 10:49 AM
sundancer maiden Long Yearling Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Udall, KS Posts: 1,499	Chain and Wire Bits, clarification. I am talking about the slender wires and bicycle type chains. Is there ever really a time when they are justified?? I mean, I see those and feel sick. I could never imagine putting either of those things in a horses mouth. Yes, I am talking about the chainsaw looking chains and the wire that looks like it could be used for jewelry. __________________ You don't have to be crazy to be my friend, but it helps!!! Last edited by sundancer maiden : 10-30-2009 at 09:09 AM.

10-29-2009, 10:52 AM
LoveMyHorse18 Halter broke Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Shepherd, MI Posts: 64	I have always been a believer that all bits, in the correct hands, are a proper training device. HOWEVER, there is an exception to every rule. __________________ Without downs in life, we'd never learn to appreciate the ups!

10-29-2009, 11:02 AM
dunamovin Halter broke Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: where the blacktop ends Posts: 181	My feeling about these bits is the horse doesn't need a wire bit he needs a better trainer. I've seen to many scarred, cut up tongues to ever use one.

10-29-2009, 03:34 PM
beth55051 Bombproof Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: East Central Minnesota Posts: 7,977	You'll never find one of those bits in my tack shed. I don't even like the hard nosed mechanical hackamores. I've only ever used even a twisted wire on one horse and that's due to past harsh bits ruining his mouth. The poor horse just can't "feel" a smooth snaffle. But we're working on getting him back into one. __________________ *Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawakened.*

10-29-2009, 03:55 PM
arabiancowgirl Started Join Date: May 2008 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 2,060	I believe for a person with talented hands and a talented horse, this bit could be useful. I don't believe this would make a good colt starting bit. I know if my arab had it on she would flip, literally! __________________ It's easy to be Pro-Choice... if your not the one being killed.

10-29-2009, 03:59 PM
evelynwolfe Halter broke Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Southern IN Posts: 183	I didn't know it at the time until I got my boy back. We sent a 3 year old off to a known trainer of the area to be broke out for my sister. When we got him back they had been using a twisted wire snaffle on a 3 year old! Needless to say he came back head shy and would NOT take a bit. Years later we're still working on that, found a lovely solution with an easy soft hack. It has taught us an important lesson...stop in and check on the people you have entusted your horse to. We now do all of our own starting to avoid this situation in the future. There is no reason in opinion to have a wire bit in the barn, or a chain bit in the barn...If your horse needs that then the horse has to go back to training. I've seen too many scarred mouths and too much blood tinged foam... __________________ Sell the cow, buy the sheep, but never be without the horse. ~ Irish Proverb Last edited by evelynwolfe : 10-29-2009 at 04:06 PM. Reason: Got off subject...

10-29-2009, 04:38 PM
Rockin GR Yearling Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canton, KS Posts: 759	I'll be the odd man out and say that I've seen them used well, but by very well trained hands. First off, a true "chain" mouth bit is one of the softest mouth pieces there is because it doesn't apply any pressure to the roof of the mouth. But I believe you are referring to the ones that look kinda like a chainsaw chain. My best friend had a couple of horses that the mule mouth (what you are calling a chain mouth) did wonders for, but they were never abused. One horse is the definition of a free runner and would run through his rate spots sometimes. He ran through a lot of bits (and not for lack of training! It's just Jake) so every once in a while she will put the mule mouth on him to get his rate back. But she doesn't compete with it. The other horse that I saw that it helped was her colt. Total opposite of the above horse. Total dead head, but was bred to run. She worked on him for 2 years trying to make him a barrel horse but he was dropping his shoulders and no amount of kicking or lifting was going to pick him up. Put the Muley on him one day and it worked like a charm. Rode him in it off and on for about a month, and he's all the sudden pulling 2D and the occasional 1D check. But never did either horse ever get pulled or yanked or so much as a red mark! Now, the tiny twisted wires, I have no use for. I have used many bits with some form of twist on the mouth piece, but I won't use one of those itty bitty ones that will cut a mouth. __________________ "No horse ever goes as fast as the money you spend on him."

10-29-2009, 09:24 PM
NorthernHorseGirl Yearling Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 509	The only hard-mouthed horse I've ever had was totally responsive to a mechanical hackamore. Shows that she wasn't actually hard-mouthed. I cringe when I see those kinds of bits and have little respect for anyone who'd use them. __________________ Some horses come into our lives and quickly go. Others stay awhile and make hoofprints on our hearts and we are never, ever the same. Anonymous Rest in peace Clint, I'll always love you and I'll miss you for the rest of my life. You were and will always be my perfect horse.

10-29-2009, 09:37 PM
eventergirl09 Halter broke Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 143	To me, horses weren't meant for medal in their mouthes anyway..we did that to them, and they work for us to make us happy, so why should we take total advantage of them working for us by putting the harshest thing possible in their mouth. Just my opinion, so don't rip me a new one. __________________ A horse gallops with its lungs, perseveres with its heart, and wins with its character. ~ Tessio

10-29-2009, 09:51 PM
AnChap Weanling Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: West Virginia Posts: 404	I use a fairly thin twisted snaffle, not thin thin, but I've had no problems with it, but I'm afraid to even step into this discussion, all I can say is if you use it right and they aren't being hurt, I don't see why it can't be a training tool in the right hands, as long as you are careful and not hurting the horse. It doesn't have to be used forever either, just as a step. Any bit can be horrible if it's used wrong

10-30-2009, 12:40 AM
sundancer maiden Long Yearling Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Udall, KS Posts: 1,499	Please don't get mad or feel like you have to defend yourself! This is one of those topics that we can use to understand different ideas. I had gone over the posts and gave it a lot of thought. When I came back on one of the thoughts I had was brought up. Needing a license to use! Just like there are many people who should have to go through training and get a license to have kids!! I see hundreds of bits on the market that not only have the ability to cause intense pain, but that can do physical damage; the bloody, cut mouths that have been mentioned. Oldbear, if the horse is talented shouldn't it be able to work beautifully on body cues alone. People shouldn't have to be "in a horse's mouth" hardly at all. Even a light bit could give the extra help then? All of the people here care very much about their horses. We complain and share "pet peeves" about the people who are the ones that worry me. Of course there are "big name" trainers who shouldn't be allowed near a horse! I guess my main point is that there are so many potentially cruel bits, (spurs, etc) on the market for the general public to buy. I do believe there are way too many people who abuse this equiptment just because they can. Why are there so many? Who comes up with some of these things? I may be going on and on too much, but how many horses get ruined by people using things that only a professional should be able to get ahold of?? __________________ You don't have to be crazy to be my friend, but it helps!!!

10-30-2009, 08:47 AM
AnChap Weanling Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: West Virginia Posts: 404	I think you're right, it's a hard subject, and it comes down to the user. If you're careless and harsh, you're hurting any horse. I use a thinner than some bit, but no matter WHAT bit I use, I always check my horse's mouth carefully after each ride. And I'm always training myself to be a better rider so I can help my horse and we can get to a point (which we're close to) that Ihardly touch the bit anyway.

10-30-2009, 10:50 AM
Rockin GR Yearling Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canton, KS Posts: 759	But keep in mind, ANYTHING, even a halter, can be harsh in the wrong hands. I run Mia in a Bozo Side Pull, but even that can be mean if you were to go to yanking on it. Just because they don't have a mouthpiece, or because it doesn't look like it's harsh, doesn't mean abuse can't happen. The best tool for your horses face is soft, quiet hands. __________________ "No horse ever goes as fast as the money you spend on him."

10-30-2009, 12:52 PM
NorthernHorseGirl Yearling Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 509	The thing is, if you have a horse that goes well in a twisted wire, thin mouthpiece, whatever kind of nasty bit like that, and you have soft hands so it doesn't hurt the horse, why would you even use one of these bits? To me, that means that your horse doesn't need it, so why use it? You might never use it harshly but if you ever fall off, for most people, the first instinct is to grip the reins and use them to hold yourself on. Then, suddenly, the bit could very well cut or damage your horse's mouth. Or a rein gets hooked on something, same thing. Horses often do foolish things that we're not prepared for. Why take that risk? __________________ Some horses come into our lives and quickly go. Others stay awhile and make hoofprints on our hearts and we are never, ever the same. Anonymous Rest in peace Clint, I'll always love you and I'll miss you for the rest of my life. You were and will always be my perfect horse.

10-30-2009, 02:12 PM
singing tree Long Yearling Join Date: May 2009 Location: Hartville, Ohio Posts: 1,025	This is pretty weird, but my mare hates snaffles of any kind, and much prefers a western curb. but obviously, plain old snaffles are the most common type of bit. I personally do not like "contact" bits. I want to give the lightest signal, and then have the horse respond on a loose rein. But I know that dressage folks do different things and need that light contact. So, I would pretty much agree that different bits have their place. Certainly cutting up a horses mouth serves no good purpose whatsoever, and if you can't ride with your current bit and not do that, you should most certainly change bits and pressure. But don't judge another who uses the bit a little differently and has a happy, responsive horse.