Showmanship lessons question, mainly for 4-H parents

enchanting · 11-19-2009, 03:15 PM

Not sure where to post this, thought about in the training section, but figured that was only for horses and not for people. So since it does have to do with showing stuff (not sure how many people practice showmanship at home if they never plan to show it)

I have begun thinking about leaving the job I am at so that I can do more stuff with the horses. In order to do that I have to replace my income. Growing up my mom paid for us to take showmanship lessons one day a week for an hour from another local lady that was an advisor in one of the 4-H clubs. This was probably 10-15 yrs ago when we started, and we paid her $5 per lesson. She would do a group of students at a time, sometimes as many as 12 of us, sometimes as few as 4.

With her assistance back then my sister and I became quite good in showmanship. Winning most of the time, or at least coming in the top three in payback classes against adults and people from the AQHA circuit.

She would occasionally host showmanship clinics as well that were free to attend (I think, memory not so good on some of the financial aspects). While watching her at one of her clinics it gave me information to train my mare myself how to do showmanship. She will pivot on either the left or the right hind foot with a very slight change in the lead rope position, we do not use a chain on her, just a snap. She sets up automatically basically, she backs instantly. I can do patterns with her without a lead if I want to. This year I added in the 90 degree pull turn as we heard they are asking for that at shows now.

I trained her 10 yrs ago, she had 9 yrs off, and we decided my niece would use her this year in 4-H. With a couple days of tune-up by me, and then working with my niece with her she now has over 15 ApHC showmanship points (in only a few shows, many with only 3-6 in the class), and my niece won one of her showmanship classes at her 4-H show and was 2nd in the other.

With that I know that the knowledge I have is still relevant in the showring, and have thought about one way to boost the income from whatever new job I have could be through showmanship lessons. One problem if I begin to get paid for lessons I can no longer show as a Non-Pro on the ApHC circuit. They do not have Open showmanship classes (not sure if any breed does), so I would not be able to showcase my skills that way to draw in more potential students. So everything would be based off the results my students earned.

How much would you pay for your 4-H member to take showmanship lessons? Is $10 per person in a group setting be an ok amount, or would that be considered too high for a group setting. How much would you pay for a week or two weeks depending on the horse to learn showmanship?

gatorsmom · 11-19-2009, 03:24 PM

While I can't offer you any help with the questions you are asking, I applaud your decision to find a way to give up your job so that you may spend more time with your horses, but still be able to pay the bills! I think about that same thing everyday; how can I earn a living, and enjoy my horse at the same time. I wish you the best of luck!

3horses · 11-19-2009, 03:57 PM

No offense, but I wouldn't pay for showmanship lessons. My daughter hates groom and show.

She only does it because it's required for 4-H. The 4-H leader gave our kids instruction in showmanship as part of one of the meetings.

enchanting · 11-20-2009, 12:16 AM

No offense taken. Our 4-H advisors would provide a short showmanship instruction as well during each meeting. Normally it was 1-1.5 hrs of riding and 15 mins of showmanship. Our local county required the child to go in one showmanship class at the fair before they were permitted to ride. Even the contest exhibitors had to do showmanship. They held an extra class after the regular showmanship that was for all the 1st and 2nd place kids in the showmanship classes. The prize was a 3 ft tall rotating trophy. Many people wanted that (even though they had to give it back the next year), but if you won it three years in a row, you got to keep it.

Many youths don't find joy in showmanship. Normally they tend not to like it because they aren't good at it (not saying that is why your daughter doesn't like it). If they go out in the class every time and always come in last place or next to last then they tend to think why should I bother at all.

An example would be my niece. Two years ago she went in a showmanship class at an open show. She did use my mare there, but there was no real practicing before we just told her what she was supposed to do. We practiced the morning of the show at the show grounds. Well, Ty didn't know the quadrants very well so was off the entire way, turned Sweetie the wrong way for her pivot, and when she lined up, she put her nose to the fence rather than "tail to the rail." She got last out of 3 or 4 in the class. She said she was never going to do showmanship again because she didn't want to be embarrassed again.

This spring I started working with her and the horse at the beginning of April (for both riding and showmanship). At the end of April she went to her first show, she placed 2nd in showmanship placing over a couple girls that had been doing showmanship for years. She went to some open shows and won her age group, she went to one show and won some money back, then won one of her classes at her county fair. Now she is planning to go to ApHC Nationals next year in showmanship.

Another factor could be the area we were in. There was an equestrian center in the same town as our county fairgrounds that hosted AQHA shows almost every weekend. Some of the kids in our 4-H program ran the AQHA circuit as well. So our fair show, or any open show in the area you had to be at AQHA levels to place. It was no longer a matter of if you could get your horse to turn around in something that resembled a pivot, but you had to pivot on the correct foot. No longer get the horse set up the 3 seconds, your horse had to set up either when it stopped, or only move one time to be set up. So if you wanted to be even remotely competitive at open shows or 4-H you had to know your stuff extremely well. This was the way we did it.

Sirita_88 · 11-20-2009, 05:50 AM

It sounds interesting, but I just don't see you getting the numbers to make close to an income. Takeing a group lesson means loading up the horse and traveling, just for showmanship...

Around here kids that have trainers have thier trainers teach them everything. And kids without trainers aren't likey to get one just for showmanship lessons. I guess you have to think of it like if they can't afford lessons, they can't afford them.

bunnyal · 11-20-2009, 06:00 AM

You could just do little clinics at open shows in your area.

Drafty · 11-20-2009, 07:47 AM

Snipped.

enchanting · 11-20-2009, 02:58 PM

Thank you for the information. I'm not thinking I can replace my entire income with showmanship lessons. I was thinking kind of like she did it, she met us at the fairgrounds prior to our regular meeting, so the kids and horses were already heading there.

I have been to the breed shows and have seen the trainers giving instructions to the exhibitors every step of the way. I don't figure any of them would be interested. But there may be some parents that can't afford $400-800 a month for a trainer, but they have good horses and compete locally so want to be the best they can be. So for $5-10 they may be up for it. Maybe.

I'll probably never be able to replace my current income with horses alone. But to subsidize the income from the regular job I get would help.

The doing clinics at open shows sounds interesting. I wonder if I could get that to work.

There were times in the past when we loaded up the horses and went to a show just for showmanship classes. We would leave at lunch break and go trail riding or something else afterwards.

One show we managed to walk away with a pile of money (well for us anyway, we were kids) by only doing showmanship and a halter class. The show happened to get rained out after 4 classes, but my sister had taken my mares full sister in the $100 halter and won, she also won the $100 showmanship, I placed somewhere but not remembering where, then I won my age group showmanship there were over 20 in the class. I was thrilled because it was with my little POA pony and the girl that came in 2nd was on a really nice AQHA that they showed on the circuit and she won all the time, it was the first time I ever beat her. They gave money back in that class as well a certain % of the entry fees. So we spent maybe $15 on entry fees and won back over $100.

We tried showing pigs a couple of times, never got that fully figured out, lean over brush all dust off as you go around the ring, rub with stick (or hook or something like that).

lopintoo · 11-24-2009, 11:32 AM

It might work, it might not, but you'll never know until you try. Run an ad or put up fliers and see what kind of response you get. You could set it up as a one day lesson/clinic type thing and just see who calls. If it goes over well ask your participants if they would be interested in regular lessons. If nothing else do it just once a month to lessen the hauling costs of the students.

I used to show showmanship, but that's been about 10-12 years ago. My husband knows nothing about it, so basically I was flying solo when practicing and going on show results alone. I did pretty good but even though I know what I'm "supposed" to do, it helps having someone watching to tell you when you're out of position or need to be a little sharper on something. Ever try to set up a camera to video yourself? - not easy. I am considering going back the the wp/showmanship arena (we swithched to cow horses - big difference!) and I know I'll need a few lessons to get me (and my cow horse habits) back in shape. I don't want take lessons every week, but a few to start out and one now and then sure wouldn't hurt. If there was a trainer really good in showmanship, yes I'd haul to them even if I did not get a riding lesson too. I bet there are people out there just like me. Especially at the beginning of show season after everyone has had the winter off.

canteringkids · 11-24-2009, 12:16 PM

Would you be willing to travel to other barns to do clinics/demonstrations? Could you find a few barns or 4-H clubs that would be interested? I personally wouldn't be likely to participate in something (or suggest that my students do so) when we are already at a show. There is just so much to be done and (IMHO) a show is not the time to train or introduce new concepts.

There are probably a lot of trainers out there (like me!

) who do not offer showmanship lessons but would like for the students to learn it. I would advertise to competitors who go for the "all-around" points and see what kind of interest that brings you. I think that showmanship lessons are worth the same as riding lessons. You could set up 1 1/2 -2 hour lessons/demonstrations and charge $25-$35, especially if you travel to their barn. If I were doing something like this, I would bring the winning mare along to show them how it looks, then teach them on their own horses. Maybe you could include grooming tips/turnout advice as a portion of the lesson (?)

Good luck! I'm one of those souls who is trying to break even by teaching/training. It is not easy, especially with everyone cutting back on unnecessary expenses, but there are some dedicated competitors out there who really want to learn!

Horse Show Mom · 11-27-2009, 08:30 AM

Being a mom of a 4-H'er, I would be willing to spend some money for lessons on showmanship. In part I agree with 3horses, my daughter does it only because they have to but her reasoning is that the class takes hours to complete. Since one class is required most of the kids do the class at our first qualiyfing show and you end up with upwards of 20 kids in the class. They lose focus and sometimes are just about ready to drop from standing in the heat. I would like her to be more confident when she does these classes so I would invest some money but not alot.

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11-19-2009, 03:15 PM
enchanting Weanling Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 306	Showmanship lessons question, mainly for 4-H parents Not sure where to post this, thought about in the training section, but figured that was only for horses and not for people. So since it does have to do with showing stuff (not sure how many people practice showmanship at home if they never plan to show it) I have begun thinking about leaving the job I am at so that I can do more stuff with the horses. In order to do that I have to replace my income. Growing up my mom paid for us to take showmanship lessons one day a week for an hour from another local lady that was an advisor in one of the 4-H clubs. This was probably 10-15 yrs ago when we started, and we paid her $5 per lesson. She would do a group of students at a time, sometimes as many as 12 of us, sometimes as few as 4. With her assistance back then my sister and I became quite good in showmanship. Winning most of the time, or at least coming in the top three in payback classes against adults and people from the AQHA circuit. She would occasionally host showmanship clinics as well that were free to attend (I think, memory not so good on some of the financial aspects). While watching her at one of her clinics it gave me information to train my mare myself how to do showmanship. She will pivot on either the left or the right hind foot with a very slight change in the lead rope position, we do not use a chain on her, just a snap. She sets up automatically basically, she backs instantly. I can do patterns with her without a lead if I want to. This year I added in the 90 degree pull turn as we heard they are asking for that at shows now. I trained her 10 yrs ago, she had 9 yrs off, and we decided my niece would use her this year in 4-H. With a couple days of tune-up by me, and then working with my niece with her she now has over 15 ApHC showmanship points (in only a few shows, many with only 3-6 in the class), and my niece won one of her showmanship classes at her 4-H show and was 2nd in the other. With that I know that the knowledge I have is still relevant in the showring, and have thought about one way to boost the income from whatever new job I have could be through showmanship lessons. One problem if I begin to get paid for lessons I can no longer show as a Non-Pro on the ApHC circuit. They do not have Open showmanship classes (not sure if any breed does), so I would not be able to showcase my skills that way to draw in more potential students. So everything would be based off the results my students earned. How much would you pay for your 4-H member to take showmanship lessons? Is $10 per person in a group setting be an ok amount, or would that be considered too high for a group setting. How much would you pay for a week or two weeks depending on the horse to learn showmanship? __________________ Enchanting Acres Appaloosas www.enchantingacres.com

11-19-2009, 03:24 PM
gatorsmom Halter broke Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 126	While I can't offer you any help with the questions you are asking, I applaud your decision to find a way to give up your job so that you may spend more time with your horses, but still be able to pay the bills! I think about that same thing everyday; how can I earn a living, and enjoy my horse at the same time. I wish you the best of luck! __________________ I used to have money, now I have horses. ~ Most of Us~

11-19-2009, 03:57 PM
3horses Yearling Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Northeastern PA Posts: 938	No offense, but I wouldn't pay for showmanship lessons. My daughter hates groom and show. She only does it because it's required for 4-H. The 4-H leader gave our kids instruction in showmanship as part of one of the meetings. __________________ No mountain is too tall to climb if the first step is belief in oneself.

11-20-2009, 12:16 AM
enchanting Weanling Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 306	No offense taken. Our 4-H advisors would provide a short showmanship instruction as well during each meeting. Normally it was 1-1.5 hrs of riding and 15 mins of showmanship. Our local county required the child to go in one showmanship class at the fair before they were permitted to ride. Even the contest exhibitors had to do showmanship. They held an extra class after the regular showmanship that was for all the 1st and 2nd place kids in the showmanship classes. The prize was a 3 ft tall rotating trophy. Many people wanted that (even though they had to give it back the next year), but if you won it three years in a row, you got to keep it. Many youths don't find joy in showmanship. Normally they tend not to like it because they aren't good at it (not saying that is why your daughter doesn't like it). If they go out in the class every time and always come in last place or next to last then they tend to think why should I bother at all. An example would be my niece. Two years ago she went in a showmanship class at an open show. She did use my mare there, but there was no real practicing before we just told her what she was supposed to do. We practiced the morning of the show at the show grounds. Well, Ty didn't know the quadrants very well so was off the entire way, turned Sweetie the wrong way for her pivot, and when she lined up, she put her nose to the fence rather than "tail to the rail." She got last out of 3 or 4 in the class. She said she was never going to do showmanship again because she didn't want to be embarrassed again. This spring I started working with her and the horse at the beginning of April (for both riding and showmanship). At the end of April she went to her first show, she placed 2nd in showmanship placing over a couple girls that had been doing showmanship for years. She went to some open shows and won her age group, she went to one show and won some money back, then won one of her classes at her county fair. Now she is planning to go to ApHC Nationals next year in showmanship. Another factor could be the area we were in. There was an equestrian center in the same town as our county fairgrounds that hosted AQHA shows almost every weekend. Some of the kids in our 4-H program ran the AQHA circuit as well. So our fair show, or any open show in the area you had to be at AQHA levels to place. It was no longer a matter of if you could get your horse to turn around in something that resembled a pivot, but you had to pivot on the correct foot. No longer get the horse set up the 3 seconds, your horse had to set up either when it stopped, or only move one time to be set up. So if you wanted to be even remotely competitive at open shows or 4-H you had to know your stuff extremely well. This was the way we did it. __________________ Enchanting Acres Appaloosas www.enchantingacres.com

11-20-2009, 05:50 AM
Sirita_88 Started Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mt. Juliet, Tennessee Posts: 2,767	It sounds interesting, but I just don't see you getting the numbers to make close to an income. Takeing a group lesson means loading up the horse and traveling, just for showmanship... Around here kids that have trainers have thier trainers teach them everything. And kids without trainers aren't likey to get one just for showmanship lessons. I guess you have to think of it like if they can't afford lessons, they can't afford them.

11-20-2009, 06:00 AM
bunnyal Yearling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Pasco County, Florida Posts: 864	You could just do little clinics at open shows in your area.

11-20-2009, 07:47 AM
Drafty Coming two Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,567	Snipped. __________________ "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Mahatma Gandhi Breeding solid paints is like breeding spotless Appys - just plain wrong! Last edited by Drafty : 12-23-2009 at 03:40 PM.

11-20-2009, 02:58 PM
enchanting Weanling Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 306	Thank you for the information. I'm not thinking I can replace my entire income with showmanship lessons. I was thinking kind of like she did it, she met us at the fairgrounds prior to our regular meeting, so the kids and horses were already heading there. I have been to the breed shows and have seen the trainers giving instructions to the exhibitors every step of the way. I don't figure any of them would be interested. But there may be some parents that can't afford $400-800 a month for a trainer, but they have good horses and compete locally so want to be the best they can be. So for $5-10 they may be up for it. Maybe. I'll probably never be able to replace my current income with horses alone. But to subsidize the income from the regular job I get would help. The doing clinics at open shows sounds interesting. I wonder if I could get that to work. There were times in the past when we loaded up the horses and went to a show just for showmanship classes. We would leave at lunch break and go trail riding or something else afterwards. One show we managed to walk away with a pile of money (well for us anyway, we were kids) by only doing showmanship and a halter class. The show happened to get rained out after 4 classes, but my sister had taken my mares full sister in the $100 halter and won, she also won the $100 showmanship, I placed somewhere but not remembering where, then I won my age group showmanship there were over 20 in the class. I was thrilled because it was with my little POA pony and the girl that came in 2nd was on a really nice AQHA that they showed on the circuit and she won all the time, it was the first time I ever beat her. They gave money back in that class as well a certain % of the entry fees. So we spent maybe $15 on entry fees and won back over $100. We tried showing pigs a couple of times, never got that fully figured out, lean over brush all dust off as you go around the ring, rub with stick (or hook or something like that). __________________ Enchanting Acres Appaloosas www.enchantingacres.com

11-24-2009, 11:32 AM
lopintoo Coming two Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,983	It might work, it might not, but you'll never know until you try. Run an ad or put up fliers and see what kind of response you get. You could set it up as a one day lesson/clinic type thing and just see who calls. If it goes over well ask your participants if they would be interested in regular lessons. If nothing else do it just once a month to lessen the hauling costs of the students. I used to show showmanship, but that's been about 10-12 years ago. My husband knows nothing about it, so basically I was flying solo when practicing and going on show results alone. I did pretty good but even though I know what I'm "supposed" to do, it helps having someone watching to tell you when you're out of position or need to be a little sharper on something. Ever try to set up a camera to video yourself? - not easy. I am considering going back the the wp/showmanship arena (we swithched to cow horses - big difference!) and I know I'll need a few lessons to get me (and my cow horse habits) back in shape. I don't want take lessons every week, but a few to start out and one now and then sure wouldn't hurt. If there was a trainer really good in showmanship, yes I'd haul to them even if I did not get a riding lesson too. I bet there are people out there just like me. Especially at the beginning of show season after everyone has had the winter off.

11-24-2009, 12:16 PM
canteringkids Weanling Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Summerville, SC Posts: 480	Would you be willing to travel to other barns to do clinics/demonstrations? Could you find a few barns or 4-H clubs that would be interested? I personally wouldn't be likely to participate in something (or suggest that my students do so) when we are already at a show. There is just so much to be done and (IMHO) a show is not the time to train or introduce new concepts. There are probably a lot of trainers out there (like me!) who do not offer showmanship lessons but would like for the students to learn it. I would advertise to competitors who go for the "all-around" points and see what kind of interest that brings you. I think that showmanship lessons are worth the same as riding lessons. You could set up 1 1/2 -2 hour lessons/demonstrations and charge $25-$35, especially if you travel to their barn. If I were doing something like this, I would bring the winning mare along to show them how it looks, then teach them on their own horses. Maybe you could include grooming tips/turnout advice as a portion of the lesson (?) Good luck! I'm one of those souls who is trying to break even by teaching/training. It is not easy, especially with everyone cutting back on unnecessary expenses, but there are some dedicated competitors out there who really want to learn!

11-27-2009, 08:30 AM
Horse Show Mom Weanling Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Central, NJ Posts: 223	Being a mom of a 4-H'er, I would be willing to spend some money for lessons on showmanship. In part I agree with 3horses, my daughter does it only because they have to but her reasoning is that the class takes hours to complete. Since one class is required most of the kids do the class at our first qualiyfing show and you end up with upwards of 20 kids in the class. They lose focus and sometimes are just about ready to drop from standing in the heat. I would like her to be more confident when she does these classes so I would invest some money but not alot.