Founder or abcess?

[mlh619]

17 y/o qh gelding comes in with a sore right leg monday no visable sign of injury, no heat, no swelling, just stiff looking and limping. By evening he looks ok again. The next day he comes in almost non weight bearing on the left front foot. When standing the foot is either flat and pointing with very little weight or held up off the ground. The coronet band is hot and no abnormal pulse. He has foundered before probably 8 years ago. The vet we talked to is leaning toward founder and said take him off the pasture (just grass) and put him back on alfalfa cubes. She said with the weather getting colder the chemical make up in the grasses is changing which is causing the founder. He is generally on cubes because he has heaves and any sort of hay aggrevates it. He hasn't been on cubes for a few weeks, maybe over a month now becasue there was pasture available and they will be moving to a new pasture in the next couple of days that has more grass. The one they are in has a lot of weeds in as well.

If it is founder would he be better off in the new pasture or on cubes (grass hay is definately not an option)? If it is an abcess, we are already soaking it.

[EquineAlberta]

I would play it safe and take your vet's advice and treat it like it is founder. If you are soaking it in hot water in case it is an abscess, then that may make a founder issue worse.

Ideally, an x-ray would give you a clear diagnosis.

Sometimes you can bute a horse to help with the diagnosis. Bute will usually make a mildly foundering horse sound, but won't completely fix an abscess.

I would think the new pasture would not be a good idea if he might be foundering, so I would vote for the cubes.

Karen

[Sirita_88]

I have always heard with founder that they need to be kept off grass and grain, so unless your new pasture is a dry lot I believe it would be best to take him out of any field.

[Akita it Girl]

I would agree and treat as founder just to be on the save side.

[mlh619]

The concern with putting him on the cubes is that they might be richer (70-80% alfalfa) than the grass and he hasn't been on them in awhile? Is that going to make the founder worse if that is what it is?

[readytogo]

soaking grass hay will get the sugars out.

[Slim Pikkens]

Altho your vet will err on the side of caution, founder generally affects both front feet. A horse will often rock back and camp the front legs out a bit to relieve hoof pressure. With an abcess the horse will often lift and set down the affected hoof. It sounds like it is in the earlier stages. I'm not second guessing your vet, just letting you know what abcess symptoms are like. An abcess will blow out the top of the hoof offering immediately relief but it could take a while.

[horselady]

Listen to the vet. I would soak in cold water, bute if possible.
Soak hay cubes, and perhaps limit his out time in pasture.
I have a gelding that was acting ouchy on left hind. Like slim said it did blow
out the top in about 1 week with a smell of pus and infection, than started on antibotics for 10 days, he was Sound again.

[mlh619]

Originally Posted by Slim Pikkens

Altho your vet will err on the side of caution, founder generally affects both front feet. A horse will often rock back and camp the front legs out a bit to relieve hoof pressure. With an abcess the horse will often lift and set down the affected hoof. It sounds like it is in the earlier stages. I'm not second guessing your vet, just letting you know what abcess symptoms are like. An abcess will blow out the top of the hoof offering immediately relief but it could take a while.

Have you been listening in on my phone conversations?!!?!? This is almost word for word what I told my sister on the phone this morning before I posted this question! It is her horse and I haven't seen him just going by the description she gave me. She thinks it is an abcess, I think it is an abcess so maybe it will be an abcess! Will soaking the alfalfa cubes get some sugar out?

[bitgirl_95]

i would treat as founder to be safe then sorry

[cameo05]

I definatly agree, treat it as founder. Never can be to sure without a vet seeing it though. Good luck and if it is founder definatly cold hose and keep the heat out of those feet.

[pennyrain]

Instead of alfalfa cubes you might want to get Ontario dehydarated Timothy cubes. It is much safer than Alfalfa for horses prone to laminitis. They test every batch for sugar content. Good luck!

[Slim Pikkens]

It is my understanding that the sugar content in the grasses is very low to non-existant at haying time when the grasses have stopped growing. When actively growing it is highest in Spring and again when the temps are cooling when the grasses aren't under so much heat stress.

[reiningfan]

Slim has it right. Hay that is ready to cut has seed heads and isn't growing, therefore the sugars are not as high.
As for the lameness, I'm thinking abcess. We've had them break out top as well as bottom. Abcesses that break out at the coronet band can be terrible to deal with, depending on how much damage they do before exiting.
Founder is rarely found in just one foot, although it can happen. Usually I've found that founder cases have heat throughout much of the hoof, rather than in isolated areas.

[GreyDot]

It really doesn't sound like founder, with it being only one foot - more like an abscess-type thing, but it's better to be safe than sorry, so I wouldn't wait to call out a professional. While some abscesses may blow out on the coronet, though, others may be lower - and can be drained by your farrier or by the vet. I'd be calling out at least one of those ASAP - and, as already pointed out, do be careful with hot-soaking, as if it IS laminitis, it will make it worse. Meanwhile, take a look at the foot - clean it off REALLY well, even scrub the sole, until you can see the whole clean sole. You might be able to see a point of entry of something like a nail, or even just a soft/thrushy spot, that would pinpoint the location. You can also GENTLY tap on the sole with a hoof pick, to see whether one area is more 'ouchy' than the other, also showing a possible abscess. Lastly, do take the horse's temperature, and keep an eye on that. An abscess sounds awful, but once it's drained, it's just a question of helping the foot heal and keeping it very, very clean - so it's not as bad as it sounds!

[Clippity-Clop]

Here is our experience with one of our pregnant mares. Just after we took her OFF the pasture due to fescue so she could have a safe delivery, she developed a limp. We cleaned out her feet and discovered 2 small stones. She was fine for a couple of days then limped on the other foot. Again, there was a small stone. Not sure where she picked them up but there they were! She was fine again for a few days. This stall was very hard - not quite as hard as concrete but still very hard. She started limping again on the original foot and we had the vet out.

He looked at her foot for 30 seconds and said "classic founder". Well, I am not a vet but I've read enough to know there wasn't anything classic about this entire event. He berated us for having her in a hard stall so we moved her to a softer one and used shavings, bute etc.. She was heavily pregnant so we were scared to death to feed her too much. It was AWFUL to go through especially since I did not believe his diagnosis. This mare was not even half as big as our previous pregnant mare and had great looking feet as conformation goes etc.. but yet we dared not disregard the diagnosis for fear we'd cause her to have to be put down.

She would get better then start limping again. We'd bute for a few days (afraid of using too much of that too - ulcers). So we went for probably 3 months worrying and not really feeding her as much as we wanted to. She had the baby and I heaved a sigh of relief but it wasn't long before she was limping badly again on the first bad foot.

At this point I want x-rays done so I investigate and try to find a different vet. I happily found two vets who work together and do nothing BUT equines! By this time my mare was walking so badly and it happened very quickly. I was sure she was going to have to be put down. She more hopped than walked and it happened in a single day! Literally she was fine that morning but couldn't walk that evening. New vets come out and I've prepared myself for the awful news but he knows immediately it is not founder! Yippeee!!! It's an abscess..lol.. He found it immediately when he pressed near the top of her hoof. It did not blow out as most do but when he peeled some of the interrior of the hoof off it started draining like crazy! We were so relieved but it was short lived.

She started the same thing again on the other foot. Keeping in mind we had not done xrays because the vet was very sure (90%) this abscess was what the problem had been. Back to the hand wringing and berating ourselves and another emergency call. Turns out she had a sub solar abscess in the OTHER foot! So there never was founder but we still had to give it some weight just in case.

If at all possible, I recommend x-rays. If we'd done that in the first place, our mare would not have had to be miserable through the latter part of her pregnancy and we would likely have a LOT fewer ulcers too! I can't say enough about having specialized vets too. If we'd known about them in the first place, we would have saved us all a lot of pain and misery. We are still trying to get this mare back on track weight wise because the whole thing pulled her down terribly. Sorry this is so long but I thought it might help you since it sounds similar to your situation.

As an aside, we have two other horses - one haflinger and one quarter horse - who have had abscesses blow out their hooves with no symptoms! I didn't even realize they had them until I saw the places where they popped out. So you never know how an abscess will work. Seems like the ones that blow out are easier on the horses than the ones deeper inside the hoofs. Good luck!

[mlh619]

Thanks you all for your replies! It helps to know that others think the same thing as me. The horse has now been sound again for three days, he has a super small hole in the bottom of his foot I am not sure that it drained there or if the sole just got scuffed off there (the pasture has been wet because it keeps raining... Just when your trying to bale) He is an older horse that has never given us trouble but maybe it is just his turn LOL he had an ulcer in his eye last week and now the foot thing but everything looks like it has healed or cleared up. If it was an abcess and did blow out the bottom the hole is small so I am sure it will return and then the farrier will come and pare it out. Right now everyone is on a wait and see! We have done the hoof pick test and everything and cannot find a sore spot. He is on a nice grass pasture and is in need of a bit of weight. I don't know that we could get Ontario timothy cubes or the shipping would kill us.

[ohiobred]

If it is founder would he be better off in the new pasture or on cubes (grass hay is definately not an option)? If it is an abcess, we are already soaking it.[/quote]


u said it's in both legs? i would lean towards founder too. no grass, no grain or starches. why no grass hay? have u had your farrier out yet?

[mlh619]

No it was only in one leg, he was stiff the day before on the other side and then dead lame on the other side the next day. Farrier came out and it was definately an abcess that blew out the bottom. All looks clear now and cross your fingers it stays that way!!!