People With Navicular Experience, Please Look *Xrays inc*

[AlbertaGirl]

Cheyanne was finally xrayed and diagnosed yesterday (after 7 vet visits ) as having changes/damage to the navicular bones. I was relieved after so long to finally have a diagnoses, but at the same time really po'd that it took so long (and cost so much) while the damage just got worse, and could've been being treated. Anyhow, from what the vet showed me and described, it sounds pretty bad, and he suggested the Natural Balance aluminum shoes as the first thing to do.

I was trying to take it all in, but a lot of the info was new and/or unfamiliar to me. He pointed out several holes and shadowy areas in the bone, and that the back view was supposed to show a very symetrical "gull wing" which Cheyanne's aren't, the one more than the other. Can you guys tell me more, make sure if have the little bit I know correct, and maybe provide me with stories, experience, etc? Feel free to copy the pics to Paint to illustrate what you're talking about. I'd really appreciate it!

[Gotta Love Duns]

Well I have good news for you, Cheyannes damage isn't as bad as Iggys. I don't have digital xrays that I can show you but his had "chunks" of navicular bone missing.
What I did with Iggy and this worked very well for him is we put him in a egg bar wedge with a 2 inch rise for the first two months. After that he was sound enough to be placed into a solid steel egg bar with no wedge for about 3 months, and then he went bar foot for the winter, sound.

Iggy and I now do light riding barefoot completely sound, I just keep him off all gravel and pavement. His feet just can't handle it. He was so lame when he was diagnosed he couldn't trot and gimped badly when he walked. It was really sad to watch.

Try the eggbar wedge they worked wonders for us and Iggys navicular is much more advanced.

[AlbertaGirl]

Thanks for the info, and providing me with a little more hope, I didn't even realize Iggy had navicular! How long ago was he diagnosed?

The vet mentioned that some horses can show major changes/damage and only slight unsoundness, while others will barely have anything showing and will be dead lame, isn't that strange?!

These are the kind of shoes he wants me to use http://www.tfp.uk.com/nbs.htm He never said anything about the egg bar ones for Cheyanne, I wonder if he thinks these would be the best for exactly what is going on with her? I'll also talk to my farrier and see what he says...

[lady dumpling]

AlbertaGirl I am so sorry to hear about Cheyannes Navicular I was really hoping for something really simple.I bet you are glad to have a proper diagnosis,and treatable.How is that fine young baby boy of hers? Did you get aound to giving him a name?Sure would be nice to see pics of him show up in meet the horses,not to get off topic.I wanted to offer encouragement for Cheyanne I know this has been a long road for you to get her diagnosed and I hope her treatment will give her and you a much needed break from this .

[azhorselover]

Here is an interesting product you should check out. I had a rescue horse a while back that I had talked with this guy Goerge Ebby about trying this stuff on. I wish I could of afforded it at the time. Well since then there are even more great new research about this stuff and I would love to hear someone try it out.

http://gallium-nitrate.com/

click on his name to see the studies and also just google gallium-nitrate and there is alot of info on horses.

[Tobiesmom]

I'm so sorry that you've had such problems. Navicular is such a heartbreaker. However, good treatment can do a lot to help return her to better function. Shoeing is very important. I also am more familiar with egg bar shoes with a wedge pad as the shoe setup of choice.... but my navicular horse experience was 25-30 years ago. A lot has changed since then!!! Also look at some of the feed supplements like (and I'm not going to spell this correctly!!) Isoxoprene and such to improve blood flow and nutrients to the foot.

And, while it's not always the solution we want to look at first, techniques to nerve the affected area have improved greatly over the years also. I don't advocate using a nerved horse excessively, but it can be a path to take to give the horse relief. I'm wishing you good thoughts and praying for good results.

[BarnBum]

I don't know how to read the Xrays, but I did have a horse that was navicular. We kept him on NavicularSaver and Isoxsuprine and he did well. In the winter I just kept his front foot wrapped for warmth to help with circulation.

[Gotta Love Duns]

Originally Posted by AlbertaGirl

Thanks for the info, and providing me with a little more hope, I didn't even realize Iggy had navicular! How long ago was he diagnosed?

The vet mentioned that some horses can show major changes/damage and only slight unsoundness, while others will barely have anything showing and will be dead lame, isn't that strange?!

These are the kind of shoes he wants me to use http://www.tfp.uk.com/nbs.htm He never said anything about the egg bar ones for Cheyanne, I wonder if he thinks these would be the best for exactly what is going on with her? I'll also talk to my farrier and see what he says...

See I had a look at those shoes and they don't make sense to me as they are putting more pressure on the heal because the lip is on the toe. With a nivcular horse most often they will "rest" there front feet. I have a picture of Iggy at his worst if you do want to see it. Oh and Iggy was dead lame, didn't even want to walk lame it was really bad. Back to the shoes... I know usually they want to take the pressure off the heal and have them roll over on the toe easily. I will find a picture of the shoe I was talking about. We also put pads on Iggy for the first go round as well.
This is very similar to what Iggy had...
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...NA:en%26sa%3DN
He did extremely well with these and with it made his way on the road to soundness. I can tell you within 3 weeks I could start riding him again when he couldn't barely walk before. It was awesome.

I also put him on a supplement called Stride Mix that is made at my vet's office and that helped a ton as well.

I hope my info helps if you have any questions you can always give me a call.

[Hideaway]

My QH Herky was diagnosed with navicular years ago and he's 15. We treated with similar shoes as GLD and he did much better although not sound as quickly as Iggy and we gave him a year off to try to heal. I also started him on the supplements recommended by TLC animal nutrition that used to be heavily advertised in the big magazines. It works and I still swear by it. At 15 and having a tendon injury in the rear, he's just my once in a while trail horse and used for w/t lessons. He's still sound in the summer but has some trouble in the winter. I keep him barefoot with a good heal and shorter toe. I'm sure if he didn't have the back tendon issue loading more weight to the front he'd be better off but overall, the shoes and supplements brought him back to use and I couldn't be happier. I can give you the link to the website if you're interested.

[EquineAlberta]

I am sorry to hear about the diagnosis, but I guess it is better to know than not.

I agree with the vet's idea of the Natural Balance shoes if your horse has an otherwise healthy hoof, but you can get a light metal which I prefer to the aluminum as they last longer, but you have to order them...the aren't sold locally. It is important to have a farrier who knows how to put them on though...they are not put on like normal shoes...the toe of the shoe is set based on the frog, not to line up with the toe of the hoof. As well, the farrier will need to be comfortable trimming the hoof to be more upright by bringing the heel and toe back.

Did your vet block her to know that this is where the pain is coming from? We have a horse here who x-rays much worse than that, but is not sore from it, so you can't assume that the x-rayable issues are causing pain.

Karen

[AlbertaGirl]

Originally Posted by EquineAlberta

I am sorry to hear about the diagnosis, but I guess it is better to know than not.

I agree with the vet's idea of the Natural Balance shoes if your horse has an otherwise healthy hoof, but you can get a light metal which I prefer to the aluminum as they last longer, but you have to order them...the aren't sold locally. It is important to have a farrier who knows how to put them on though...they are not put on like normal shoes...the toe of the shoe is set based on the frog, not to line up with the toe of the hoof. As well, the farrier will need to be comfortable trimming the hoof to be more upright by bringing the heel and toe back.

Did your vet block her to know that this is where the pain is coming from? We have a horse here who x-rays much worse than that, but is not sore from it, so you can't assume that the x-rayable issues are causing pain.

Karen

Cheyanne has very good feet, and and a good heel as well, so maybe that's why the vet has suggested the Natural Balance shoes for her? I'm not sure how much more upright her heels could be without throwing her angles all out of whack... here's a picture, opinions?



Cheyanne has been blocked a few times actually, but this time she was blocked on her "problem" leg, the left, and then showed more lame on her right front, so then they did the xrays. He said that the pattern she's been following of no heat or swelling but showing some lameness, then not showing almost anything, etc was pretty indicative of navicular as well. I think one of the reasons it wasn't pinpointed with her sooner was because some of the vets I used were idiots (plain & simple), and also that she has never been shod, has good sized feet (I'd guess she may even be a size 1), and has never been worked really hard. For anyone in the area, I used Edmonton Equine for Cheyanne and the colt, and would reccomend them to others.

I've been very happy with my farrier, and he's a graduate of the Okalahoma Horseshoeing school, but I'll have to ask him if he's up to this... I sure hope so!

[AlbertaGirl]

Just out of curiousity, I measured across Cheyanne's hooves, and they were over 5 inches across, so I think that would have her wearing a size 1 shoe (?). They're definetely good sized feet for a maybe 14.3hh mare, weighing between 1050 - 1100lbs. Anyhow, I suppose that probably doesn't matter all that much...

Couple more pics of her feet, trimmed a month ago:

[AlbertaGirl]

Anyone have anything else to add... please?

[AlbertaGirl]

I'd really love to hear what Range or some of the other people very knowledgable about all this have to say... I'm still waiting for a call back from my farrier, and am wondering if we can't have the Natural Balance shoes, can we just go with the eggbars???

[pippy]

My geldings xrays of navicular also looked worse then yours (he also had arthritis and bone spurs in addition navicular bone deterioration, he was only 12)..and yet with corrective shoeing he could still be ridden lightly (about 2 hours on flat ground- no strenuous work and no hills or jumping), so there I'm thinking corrective shoeing may very well help yours. I used aluminum egg bar and the farrier came out more often then he did for the other non navicular horses, to keep him where he needed to be. Also, I tried supplements but I never noticed any difference and I had him on the spendy stuff for over a year..I took him off and he was the same..but I would still ask your vet about what to try- what works for each horse is different. I also tried to keep my guy well bedded- in the winters here when the ground was frozen, he would get more sore and stiff- a bad side affect of having such a conditions and living in below zero temps.
Navicular is not necessarily a death sentence, but is alot more maint. and work...atleast now that you know what the problem is, you can try things and find out what works best for yours!
Good LucK!

[Range]

Has your farrier had an opportunity to look at the x-rays?

Hubby looked at them and said he could see some changes in the caudal area in two of the x-rays, the side views, but said the others were not indicative of anything. He also said he wouldn't say navicular from the x-rays, but it is an extremely hard thing to diagnose. Your farrier would be able to give you more insight after viewing the x-rays, talking to the vet, and watching your horse's gait pattern.

I don't remember, has toe-stabbing been an issue?

Also, hubby recommends Jim Keith navicular shoes. He uses them on ALL of his navicular clients as well as some that just have undiagnosed caudal heel pain and toe-stabbing and says they are "the best thing ever."

[Sirita_88]

So my horse (avatar) was just diagnosed with navicular. My vet has him on 30 tabs of Isoxsuprine 2x's daily. I just put the whole pills in his grain. It's supposed to help restore bloodflow to the hoof. But I have read articles saying it hasn't been proven to help. But I am going to do ANYTHING it takes to keep my horse comfortable.

My vet also reccomended a natural balance shoe with wedges with something called ermm BLANK... Cushion.

Well my farrier came out just to put the shoes back on after the xray and he did't have any nb shoes on his truck.

So under vet reccomendations, He used wedges lifting 3-6 degrees. Aluminum shoe, set about 5/8s of an inch back (vet found from xrays. shoe needed to be even farther back than the farrier had tried setting him, TC has really long toes from old farrier). I think it might be called sole cushion or something... But he put a packing cushion (it's pink) on my horses soles,too)

TC is also on bute every time I ride to reduce inflamation.

TC wasn't very bad last time the vet saw him (1 on lameness scale) and that was before the corrective shoeing, isoxsuprine, etc. He also only had 1 lolipop and a slight change in the navicular bone, so he's not that bad off.

But from 1 round of corrective shoeing I can already see a difference. I can ride him without bute and keep him sound (tried it a few days ago). However, I still give him bute when I ride because I don't want to risk the chance.

My vet said it is perfectly okay to ride a horse with navicular as long as you can keep them out of pain.

Oh, so the bill:
Corrective shoeing (fronts only): $120
I am sure when he gets trimmed on monday the backs will be an extra $50.
THis is done every 5 weeks...

Plus Isoxsuprine, (I think $30 a month?)

Bute- $12/tube w/about 6 rides/tube!!

Yes, this can get pretty expensive , but he is my baby and he is totally worth it...

I talked to my vet about injecting his navicular bursa but he said he would have to do it radiographically so he would need to go to an animal hospital, and the risk of infection is really high... So that's a no.

I watched a program about navicular. And a vet said that you can get the nerve cut and it will last about 3 years before you have to do it again.

Because I am showing him, I may do it if TC starts experienceing that much pain, but for right now he doesn't need it.

From what I can tell it's okay to ride a navicular horse. It's not going to make things worse as long as they are shoed properly. So the goal is to prevent furthur damage through shoeing and meds. And keep them out of pain by meds, shoeing, and other pain relievers.

I would be more than happy to talk to you about this any time, if you are feeling frustrated. I am so bent up about my horse sometimes I want to cry. But the good news is I know what the problem is, and I know that I have the means to keep him healthy, so he will always be happy and loved with me.

[Sirita_88]

Originally Posted by AlbertaGirl

I'd really love to hear what Range or some of the other people very knowledgable about all this have to say... I'm still waiting for a call back from my farrier, and am wondering if we can't have the Natural Balance shoes, can we just go with the eggbars???

Even though I said this in my other post, my farrier used aluminum shoes with wedge pads (3-6 degrees) underneath with a cushion (pack) on the sole. He put a breakover in the aluminum shoe, too. He also set the shoe farther back because of what the xrays showed. It looks kind of silly, there is a large part (5-7/8ths of an inch) of his toe hanging off the front of the shoe, but the farrier did a good job rounding it off. But I am sure people at shows that don't have any experience are thinking "look at how overgrown that horse is, he needs a trim really bad!"

Argh! I wish I had pictures, but I am at college, I will have to take some on wednesday, I also have xrays I can post, too!

I really trust this farrier. He's a Journeyman that actually certifies other journeymen. He quit a cooperate job to do this. He was actually reccomended to me by my boss that shows 100,000 + hunter/jumper warmbloods. She has complete faith in him.

I think having a good farrier and a knowledgeble vet working together is key to treating a navicular horse. I am just so glad that I have such great resources.

[DappleGrayMyWay]

My mare has navicular in her front right foot and the potential to develop on the left as well. We caught it before she was showing any lameness from it, but she was a little sore.

We tried eggbars and they lasted less than one week for one foot and the second made it maybe another five days. This is a combination of her living in a large pasture with other horses, and it a muddy spring.

How my farrier (who is an artist) handled that, was he put on clip shoes that are just a little larger than she would take, and he kind of wraps them around in the back some for extra support.

She's had three good trims and reshoeings since we found this out, and she has had no pain in her feet for months.

No offense, because a lot of people swear by supplements, but my vet said they work great...on the human frontal lobes, but not really so much on the horse. You have to follow your own ideas on that one, I can't say I'd use a supplement but there might be some that are great.

The key is to respect that the horse has a degenerative condition and while we can alleviate some of the issues, it will continue to progress, period. We can slow it down, we can adjust for it, but we can't stop it, reverse it, or completely fix it. There are a lot of things a horse with navicular probably shouldn't do, like hardcore endurance, jumping/eventing, barrels. But there are a lot of things they can still do, and enjoy.

Good luck!

[AlbertaGirl]

THANK YOU Pippy, Sirita_88, and Range !

Originally Posted by Range

Has your farrier had an opportunity to look at the x-rays?

Hubby looked at them and said he could see some changes in the caudal area in two of the x-rays, the side views, but said the others were not indicative of anything. He also said he wouldn't say navicular from the x-rays, but it is an extremely hard thing to diagnose. Your farrier would be able to give you more insight after viewing the x-rays, talking to the vet, and watching your horse's gait pattern.

I don't remember, has toe-stabbing been an issue?

Also, hubby recommends Jim Keith navicular shoes. He uses them on ALL of his navicular clients as well as some that just have undiagnosed caudal heel pain and toe-stabbing and says they are "the best thing ever."

My farrier is usually really good about getting back to me, but he also farms, and may be busy, so he hasn't responded to my message yet. I also only got the diagnoses 5 days ago. I will show him the xrays, but I'm not sure how much advanced stuff he does, I just know he's a graduate of the Okalahoma Horseshoeing School, and that I've been happy with his work so far.

I'm not sure about toe-stabbing , I've never heard the term before... She was just "off" on her front left since Christmas 2006, with no real heat or swelling. It would at times seem like she was fine, andother times I'd see it again, but she was never dead lame. When the vet (who is a lameness expert) blocked her this time on her left front, she started showing signs of lameness in her right front. It was actually pretty comparible to what Sirita_88 had detailled in her post about her gelding...

Thank you for taking the time to show this post to your husband, please let him know it is very much appreciated ! I'll be glad to answer any further questions as well, or try to explain things better.