Itty Bitty QH hooves

EquineAlberta · 07-09-2008, 09:51 PM

I had a horse come in for training on Sunday. He is a 3 yr old QH; very cute and a nice quality horse, but his feet are raising some serious concerns for me! They are TINY! The hinds are small but ok (I guess the farrier has not been able to trim them), but the fronts are smaller than a new born foal, and the heels and toe are about the same length (approx 2 inches). His toe is trimmed back so far his weight is on the tip of his frog and his heel.

I want to try to explain to the owners some of the risks his hooves have, particularly with the current trim, but am having trouble finding good info to share with them. THey are novice horse owners and live about 3 hours away. My vet has recommended having our farrier trim him a little every 3 weeks to try to lower his heel slowly so he is close to normal when he goes home, but I am worried they will just return him to this upright foot if they don't have any info to go on.

Any one have good info/links on the risks associated with tiny QH feet trimmed with a high heel?

Karen

**beth55051** · 07-09-2008, 09:57 PM

I don't have any links but I have a horse with feet like that. He shows all the signs of navicular. Lots of heel, no frog, etc. He toe stabs badly, trips, stumbles, etc. Definitly can't jump him, he has no landing gear, not even for a little log on the trail. He can't turn fast because he has nothing to support his front end.

He's 16'3" and wears a OO shoe with the heels tweaked. Rear OO's actually fit him a tad bit better than a front shoe does his feet are that narrow.

WalliBoy · 07-09-2008, 10:07 PM

signs of navicular are feet that look like this:

http://extension.missouri.edu/explor...02743art02.jpg

is this what his feet look like?

JoesLove · 07-09-2008, 10:13 PM

I am by far not the most experienced person, and I havent seen pics of this horse... but my best friend owns a few quarter horses and is very big into the quarter horse shows and stuff..she said they have been breeding qh's with these smaller hooves, why idk, but she said they kept breeding them smaller and smaller. She has a huge 17h appendix, with tiny hooves, and she told me that was why. who knows, but maybe a slight possibility? my paintXqh has good sized hooves, though.

EquineAlberta · 07-09-2008, 10:15 PM

I wish his feet looked like that; he has WAY less toe. If you drew a line half way from the frog and the end of the toe in that drawing, and rounded it all off, that would be his fronts. He was freshly trimmed (you could see the marks from the nippers, so didn't even have time to wear at all), so i think some of the issue is man made.

Similar though it that his hoof wall is narrower than his coronet band.

The owners are super nice people who just want a nice riding horse....I know they didn't ask to have his feet trimmed this way.

Karen

**Range** · 07-09-2008, 10:21 PM

So, the angle of his pasterns doesn't match the angle of his toes? I mean, it's not natural for him to be "stood up" that way?

No offense to halter people here, but they have a tendency to stand their horses up that way. Perhaps the farrier was used to trimming that way.

Obviously, you know all the issues for a horse with no solid base, EA. I feel sure you'll be able to explain it for the new owners. Especially the idea that the horse hits and grabs the ground with the heel first and rolls up and off the toe...so if the horse isn't trimmed correctly, that action cannot be performed correctly. As the horse's style of going is changed, the bones, tendons, ligaments will also change as Mother Nature does her work (especially at his age). This will likely cause all sorts of early strain and arthritic changes, as well as coffin bone changes and rotation.

paintedpastures · 07-09-2008, 11:05 PM

We have raise paints & quarters ,which most are halter bred for show.None have those smaller feet.Yes indeed sometimes it is genetic but very often it is man made.Seen them at the shows they have them so upright & shoes on yearlings ,yikes.Needless to say many are lame at a young age.Had my farrier out just yesterday he was talking about a horse{don't know what breed} that they had in such small shoes & they wondered why he was off...duhhhhh.His heels were so tight & contracting.Hope that it is a farrier issue & they can correct things before permanent damage has been done.

HighHorse · 07-09-2008, 11:08 PM

Wow. I would love to see pictures of this.

joustinggirl · 07-10-2008, 05:23 AM

A horse with contracted looking heels are not always a navicular horse. My mare is 9 and has had contracted looking feet all her life. I keep her barefoot and she has never taken a lame step, even on rocky terrain.

They look smaller than they should for the size horse she is.

BabyMay · 07-10-2008, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoesLove

I am by far not the most experienced person, and I havent seen pics of this horse... but my best friend owns a few quarter horses and is very big into the quarter horse shows and stuff..she said they have been breeding qh's with these smaller hooves, why idk, but she said they kept breeding them smaller and smaller. She has a huge 17h appendix, with tiny hooves, and she told me that was why. who knows, but maybe a slight possibility? my paintXqh has good sized hooves, though.

Ya, i heard that was a trend. Beats me why anyone would want a horse with such tiny feet.

Sunlei · 07-10-2008, 07:46 AM

It's hard when you notice a animal with something that could be very serious and the owners are novices. The animal is with you for training but could have a break down during your watch. IMO, it's always a good thing to have the animals owners first hand involved with any Vet or specialist choices and treatments. In case the worse happens.

dreamcleaner · 07-10-2008, 08:43 AM

When I first heard the word 'navicular' I researched it. Yes, it is more prone to qh, and yes a contributing factor is that breeders are looking to breed for smaller feet. QH are normally a solid breed and the feet are not big enough for the weight they carry. Why people mess with a good thing is beyond me.

Do prove the point, the dashounds, the breeding for those nice long backs are causing all sorts of problems. For collies, hip displayixia is becoming common.

Why people think they can improve on nature continues to confound me.

Sunlei · 07-10-2008, 09:56 AM

The dog breeders breed for those traits because thats what wins in the show ring. Not sure about QH, but I bet that tiny feet trait wins.

Don't know about horse show judges but many dog show judges are old school, and those old ones take a long time to change opinions

Karen Cole · 07-10-2008, 10:29 AM

We used to have a client that wanted the horses trimmed that way small feet make the body look bigger. Notice I said used to....my husband refused to trim them "as small as possible" he was not called back and that was fine with us.

Karen

EquineAlberta · 07-10-2008, 01:52 PM

Actually his heels aren't all that contracted; it is more that the heels are LONG/upright, and that his toe is trimmed WAAAAYYYYY back. I imagine over time they will contract if left this way, but so far he isn't so badly off. I measured the length of his heel vs toe today, and the heel is actually longer! (his toe doesn't touch the ground...he is on the tip of his frog).

I was hoping to find a website that outlines what this was doing to him, but no one knows of one?

Karen

**seerfarm** · 07-10-2008, 05:46 PM

EA, is it possible he is just actually wearing the toe center out from the hard breakover caused by being so upright? This could cause the wave of longer sidewall and quarters versus toe?

fishing_trex · 07-10-2008, 06:13 PM

Any way you could get us a picture? The best thing might be to try to have them there when your farrier is there so the farrier can comment.

Here's an article on hoof balance that says, as a general rule, the heel length should be roughly 1/3rd the toe length:

http://www.equipodiatry.com/hoofbal.htm

cloudyandcallie · 07-10-2008, 06:29 PM

we boarded at a barn where a paint had size 0 hooves, wore size 0 shoes, and the farrier said he was almost a size 00.
and my TB mare stood there with her normal size 1 tb hooves, and my wb with his size 2 wb hooves.
what was the purpose of breeding for tiny hooves, appearance? or what? TB has what I think are normal hooves and they race, so I cannot think that tiny hooves would make a horse faster.

EquineAlberta · 07-11-2008, 10:18 AM

The people live over 3 hours away, so coming down for the farrier visist isn't going to happen. I won't see them again until August. They have ok'd me getting his feet done every 3 weeks to wean him back to a normal angle though!

Seerfarm, he may be wearing that way, but there are DEFINATELY some nipper marks at the toe, so the farrier pulled his toe back farther than it was wearing which is disturbing to me....and he obviously didn't trim the heel, and his heel is LONG for the size of foot. Sadly, not sure how many options they have for farriers up there.

Karen

dodib · 07-11-2008, 02:07 PM

My daughters mare that does have lameness issues foot looks liek the pic of the navicular but she does not have it she has a slight club foot on that side --the hoof is narrower and more upright. Had it xrayed and it is not navicular--

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07-09-2008, 09:51 PM
EquineAlberta Seasoned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 4,425	Itty Bitty QH hooves I had a horse come in for training on Sunday. He is a 3 yr old QH; very cute and a nice quality horse, but his feet are raising some serious concerns for me! They are TINY! The hinds are small but ok (I guess the farrier has not been able to trim them), but the fronts are smaller than a new born foal, and the heels and toe are about the same length (approx 2 inches). His toe is trimmed back so far his weight is on the tip of his frog and his heel. I want to try to explain to the owners some of the risks his hooves have, particularly with the current trim, but am having trouble finding good info to share with them. THey are novice horse owners and live about 3 hours away. My vet has recommended having our farrier trim him a little every 3 weeks to try to lower his heel slowly so he is close to normal when he goes home, but I am worried they will just return him to this upright foot if they don't have any info to go on. Any one have good info/links on the risks associated with tiny QH feet trimmed with a high heel? Karen __________________ Hillside Stable, Ardrossan, AB Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...is it really that hard?

07-09-2008, 09:57 PM
beth55051 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: East Central Minnesota Posts: 4,696	I don't have any links but I have a horse with feet like that. He shows all the signs of navicular. Lots of heel, no frog, etc. He toe stabs badly, trips, stumbles, etc. Definitly can't jump him, he has no landing gear, not even for a little log on the trail. He can't turn fast because he has nothing to support his front end. He's 16'3" and wears a OO shoe with the heels tweaked. Rear OO's actually fit him a tad bit better than a front shoe does his feet are that narrow. __________________ *Do not mind anything that anyone tells you about anyone else. Judge everyone and everything for yourself.*

07-09-2008, 10:07 PM
WalliBoy Long Yearling Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 1,260	signs of navicular are feet that look like this: http://extension.missouri.edu/explor...02743art02.jpg is this what his feet look like?

07-09-2008, 10:13 PM
JoesLove Weanling Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Jacksonville, NC Posts: 357	I am by far not the most experienced person, and I havent seen pics of this horse... but my best friend owns a few quarter horses and is very big into the quarter horse shows and stuff..she said they have been breeding qh's with these smaller hooves, why idk, but she said they kept breeding them smaller and smaller. She has a huge 17h appendix, with tiny hooves, and she told me that was why. who knows, but maybe a slight possibility? my paintXqh has good sized hooves, though.

07-09-2008, 10:15 PM
EquineAlberta Seasoned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 4,425	I wish his feet looked like that; he has WAY less toe. If you drew a line half way from the frog and the end of the toe in that drawing, and rounded it all off, that would be his fronts. He was freshly trimmed (you could see the marks from the nippers, so didn't even have time to wear at all), so i think some of the issue is man made. Similar though it that his hoof wall is narrower than his coronet band. The owners are super nice people who just want a nice riding horse....I know they didn't ask to have his feet trimmed this way. Karen __________________ Hillside Stable, Ardrossan, AB Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...is it really that hard?

07-09-2008, 10:21 PM
Range Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Back of Beyond Posts: 5,688	So, the angle of his pasterns doesn't match the angle of his toes? I mean, it's not natural for him to be "stood up" that way? No offense to halter people here, but they have a tendency to stand their horses up that way. Perhaps the farrier was used to trimming that way. Obviously, you know all the issues for a horse with no solid base, EA. I feel sure you'll be able to explain it for the new owners. Especially the idea that the horse hits and grabs the ground with the heel first and rolls up and off the toe...so if the horse isn't trimmed correctly, that action cannot be performed correctly. As the horse's style of going is changed, the bones, tendons, ligaments will also change as Mother Nature does her work (especially at his age). This will likely cause all sorts of early strain and arthritic changes, as well as coffin bone changes and rotation. __________________ If it harms none, do what you will.

07-09-2008, 11:05 PM
paintedpastures Weanling Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sherwood park,AB Posts: 297	We have raise paints & quarters ,which most are halter bred for show.None have those smaller feet.Yes indeed sometimes it is genetic but very often it is man made.Seen them at the shows they have them so upright & shoes on yearlings ,yikes.Needless to say many are lame at a young age.Had my farrier out just yesterday he was talking about a horse{don't know what breed} that they had in such small shoes & they wondered why he was off...duhhhhh.His heels were so tight & contracting.Hope that it is a farrier issue & they can correct things before permanent damage has been done.

07-09-2008, 11:08 PM
HighHorse Started Join Date: May 2007 Location: FLA Posts: 2,892	Wow. I would love to see pictures of this. __________________ I played with a clouded leopard

07-10-2008, 05:23 AM
joustinggirl Greenbroke Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Boones Mill, Virgina Posts: 3,326	A horse with contracted looking heels are not always a navicular horse. My mare is 9 and has had contracted looking feet all her life. I keep her barefoot and she has never taken a lame step, even on rocky terrain. They look smaller than they should for the size horse she is. __________________ Pink Tiger says \'Grrrrrr\'

07-10-2008, 07:46 AM
Sunlei Yearling Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 950	It's hard when you notice a animal with something that could be very serious and the owners are novices. The animal is with you for training but could have a break down during your watch. IMO, it's always a good thing to have the animals owners first hand involved with any Vet or specialist choices and treatments. In case the worse happens.

07-10-2008, 08:43 AM
dreamcleaner Started Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: ontario Posts: 2,285	When I first heard the word 'navicular' I researched it. Yes, it is more prone to qh, and yes a contributing factor is that breeders are looking to breed for smaller feet. QH are normally a solid breed and the feet are not big enough for the weight they carry. Why people mess with a good thing is beyond me. Do prove the point, the dashounds, the breeding for those nice long backs are causing all sorts of problems. For collies, hip displayixia is becoming common. Why people think they can improve on nature continues to confound me.

07-10-2008, 09:56 AM
Sunlei Yearling Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 950	The dog breeders breed for those traits because thats what wins in the show ring. Not sure about QH, but I bet that tiny feet trait wins. Don't know about horse show judges but many dog show judges are old school, and those old ones take a long time to change opinions

07-10-2008, 10:29 AM
Karen Cole Long Yearling Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,335	We used to have a client that wanted the horses trimmed that way small feet make the body look bigger. Notice I said used to....my husband refused to trim them "as small as possible" he was not called back and that was fine with us. Karen

07-10-2008, 01:52 PM
EquineAlberta Seasoned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 4,425	Actually his heels aren't all that contracted; it is more that the heels are LONG/upright, and that his toe is trimmed WAAAAYYYYY back. I imagine over time they will contract if left this way, but so far he isn't so badly off. I measured the length of his heel vs toe today, and the heel is actually longer! (his toe doesn't touch the ground...he is on the tip of his frog). I was hoping to find a website that outlines what this was doing to him, but no one knows of one? Karen __________________ Hillside Stable, Ardrossan, AB Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...is it really that hard?

07-10-2008, 05:46 PM
seerfarm Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Portal, Ga Posts: 7,732	EA, is it possible he is just actually wearing the toe center out from the hard breakover caused by being so upright? This could cause the wave of longer sidewall and quarters versus toe? __________________ "To know the road ahead, ask those coming back".

07-10-2008, 06:13 PM
fishing_trex Long Yearling Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,302	Any way you could get us a picture? The best thing might be to try to have them there when your farrier is there so the farrier can comment. Here's an article on hoof balance that says, as a general rule, the heel length should be roughly 1/3rd the toe length: http://www.equipodiatry.com/hoofbal.htm __________________ -- There are two ways to slide easily through life -- to believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways will save you from thinking.

07-10-2008, 06:29 PM
cloudyandcallie Halter broke Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Vernon River East Coast Posts: 148	size 0 we boarded at a barn where a paint had size 0 hooves, wore size 0 shoes, and the farrier said he was almost a size 00. and my TB mare stood there with her normal size 1 tb hooves, and my wb with his size 2 wb hooves. what was the purpose of breeding for tiny hooves, appearance? or what? TB has what I think are normal hooves and they race, so I cannot think that tiny hooves would make a horse faster.

07-11-2008, 10:18 AM
EquineAlberta Seasoned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 4,425	The people live over 3 hours away, so coming down for the farrier visist isn't going to happen. I won't see them again until August. They have ok'd me getting his feet done every 3 weeks to wean him back to a normal angle though! Seerfarm, he may be wearing that way, but there are DEFINATELY some nipper marks at the toe, so the farrier pulled his toe back farther than it was wearing which is disturbing to me....and he obviously didn't trim the heel, and his heel is LONG for the size of foot. Sadly, not sure how many options they have for farriers up there. Karen __________________ Hillside Stable, Ardrossan, AB Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...is it really that hard?

07-11-2008, 02:07 PM
dodib Started Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Ravenna, MI Posts: 2,568	My daughters mare that does have lameness issues foot looks liek the pic of the navicular but she does not have it she has a slight club foot on that side --the hoof is narrower and more upright. Had it xrayed and it is not navicular-- __________________ Dorthy www.freewebs.com/brownranch/