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-   -   Eddie's feet, what do you think? (http://forum.horsetopia.com/hoof-talk/151631-eddies-feet-what-do-you-think.html)

backinthesaddleagain 09-22-2013 01:40 PM

I will get photos later today of Eddies feet. Had to take the bf for late breakfast before his stomach started eating itself, lol. Back to the barn after!

*Giddy Up* 09-22-2013 05:53 PM

PM sent.

I'm not sure about the shoes- I'm sure they could, but I don't know if shoes automatically cause shallow soles, as there are many horses who wear shoes solely for performance reasons that would be just fine without.

My horse has shallow soles by conformation (can't say TBs are bred for soundness :rolleyes:), but is able to be barefoot. Granted, large stones are ouchy, but she's sound in the arena, out in her pasture and around the barn property. If her feet are too wet, she will also get ouchy again on stones.

The big issue though with her feet prior, and why I thought she couldn't be without shoes, was because farriers were keeping her toes too long (which I also understand is common with race horses, having to do with the break over point, so her feet were like that for many years- maybe that caused the shallow soles???), which puts more pressure on the sole. Ernie took her toes back, and with the help of venice turpentine to help harden her sole, within about 2 weeks she was sound barefoot, and we haven't gone back.

backinthesaddleagain 09-22-2013 10:11 PM

hoof photos sept 22, 2013
 
front right:






rear right:





backinthesaddleagain 09-22-2013 10:26 PM

rear left:






front left:






now what i see is the farrier did not take off any toe to address the long toe issue. he did nip off some of the heel on each hoof - wouldn't that under-run the heel even more? did not put much of a bevel on the hoof edge at all, almost as if he was preparing the foot to take a shoe right away. many of the nail holes right at the edges i took a rasp very lightly to after, to smooth their edges out to minimize chipping. he worked very fast, too fast for my liking, seemed a bit rough in handling Eddie, and was very quick to leave after.

what i won't get into too much detail about is the very defensive attitude i received when asking farrier a couple of questions, honestly asked and without any attitude on my part, to better understand the hows and whys of Eddie's feet and why he was shod so long and wanting to learn. i'm just shaking my head at it all. got "Any more questions?" in a very bitter and terse tone. my bf was there and commented on farrier's 'hoof side manner' too.

Smilie 09-22-2013 11:03 PM

Those pictures are after a trim? Looks like he just pulled the shoes.
Far as under run heels-they are actually long heels, but with the horn tubules growing more horizontal, thus the entire support migrating forward
One can't work both ends at the same time, so often the toes are first brought back, and then in subsequent trims, the heels can be lowered, as they come back more under the horse
The first trim should have indentified live sole , and then you obey it in all subsequent trims. Walls certainly should have been beveled and flares removed
Here is a link to hoof mapping

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/asse...ocol-Print.pdf

And, An article from Pete Ramey, on toe length and heel height

http://www.hoofrehab.com/coronet.htm

backinthesaddleagain 09-22-2013 11:47 PM

i have read that article by Ramey, Smilie, and it makes a lot of sense to me.

thank you for the hoof mapping one. i've been looking at those sorts of things, but this one is much clearer in its description than others i've found.

i agree, not a whole lot was done after the shoes were pulled. all in all, everything from start to finish, farrier didn't even take 10 minutes. he was very quick and rushed in his work.

as you can see, there was pretty much no sole pared at all. i didn't comment on this to the farrier at all, as it was already after he got what i felt was irate at a question i asked about paring off small areas of the frog. i just wanted to know why, so i could learn why. while i am not a farrier, i have been looking (scrutinizing, actually) at Eddie's feet for almost the past couple months and there were no loose tags of frog or any pieces that i saw causing issue.

would not paring off any sole at all benefit the foot by having that bit of extra sole to cushion, or should the sole be pared to live right when the horse goes barefoot after many years shod? remember, i did not have a chance to get hoof boots ahead of time (as i had no idea barefoot was happening today!), so Eddie is on pasture tonight barefoot. he did not seem tender when i left the barn this evening. i realize his feet will be more tender and maybe sore in the next few coming days, as circulation improves.

just found out earlier today that a friend has a pair of easyboot epics i could borrow, i just hope they fit! she said size 1.

Ziptomalou 09-23-2013 02:57 AM

Even as "hoof knowledge impaired" as I consider myself, I see a shoddy trim job. Way to much toe left on.

Considering his manner, I would suspect this farrier of setting this horse up to fail as a barefoot candidate. Maybe he's upset he'll lose money if he's not putting shoes on?

I have worked with 4 different farriers in the past couple of years and all of them were very willing to explain the process and why they were doing what they were doing and mapping out a long term plan for correcting any issues. Some of them were more educated/better than others, yes, but none of them snippy or reluctant to explain anything!

Smilie 09-23-2013 08:51 AM

To try and answer a few questions, Bitsa;
No, you certainly don't want to blindly pare out a sole, but on a horse where his hoof has never been really 'mapped' before, thus hard to tell landmarks, as to true apex of the frog, depth of collateral grooves, and thus sole depth, you have to in the 'set -up trim', find that true plan of the sole, and you can't do so with a lot of dead sole distorting the picture.
Only when you do know where that live sole is, will you also know how far you can back up those toes in that initial trim, because you can't just hack them off and thin already too thin sole at the front of the foot. You have to let that concavity build, over successive trims, while obeying live sole
After that first trim, you leave the sole alone, other than cleaning that area next to the bars.
I took an EPLO hoof mapping course, and it was very helpful
If you wish some hands on hoof trimming clinics, I can give you the link to the person that runs these clinics. He has worked with both Pete Ramey and has also lately taken the ELPO triming clinics with the founders of that mapping process-people like Gene Onoverick, and teaches barefoot trimming
He is located near Caroline
Here is the link to his site:

http://www.centralalbertabarefoot.co...ith-lane-moore

Lane is the barefoot specialist that I use as my local resource

backinthesaddleagain 09-23-2013 02:28 PM

thank you Smilie.

i would love to take a course like that, to learn how to map the foot and perhaps learn some barefoot trimming methods as well. anything i can do to better understand everything about horses' feet, i am willing to learn. right now i feel a bit like Alice, falling down the rabbit hole, because there is so much that i am just touching the tip on as far as hoof health education, and with so much info, it is a bit bewildering at times! but i think i've started down the right path :)

paintedpastures 09-23-2013 09:10 PM

Actually i'm not all that surprised on the way they look. I've seen farrier work of several in area{ones i've used in past} & that is job I see many doing:eek:Toes too long coming out infront of them then heel that become underrun. Unfortunatelly for many horse owners if that is all you see then you think that's how they are suppose to look:( needless to say when you find one that does a proper job you will tell;).So many of them just come in do a quick trim & go ,heaven forbid you question their work!! My experience anyway..:( Thankfully I have had good farriers past several years that keep my horses feet backed up & standing were they should be!! It can take several trims before you see the improvement when they have feet like Eddies but yes they can be corrected. I have had some different farriers when my horses are out at trainers & one trim job by another than my usual I can tell:(

Smilie 09-23-2013 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paintedpastures (Post 2125813)
Actually i'm not all that surprised on the way they look. I've seen farrier work of several in area{ones i've used in past} & that is job I see many doing:eek:Toes too long coming out infront of them then heel that become underrun. Unfortunatelly for many horse owners if that is all you see then you think that's how they are suppose to look:( needless to say when you find one that does a proper job you will tell;).So many of them just come in do a quick trim & go ,heaven forbid you question their work!! My experience anyway..:( Thankfully I have had good farriers past several years that keep my horses feet backed up & standing were they should be!! It can take several trims before you see the improvement when they have feet like Eddies but yes they can be corrected. I have had some different farriers when my horses are out at trainers & one trim job by another than my usual I can tell:(

exactly my experience also.
Too bad my favorite gelding had to suffer, being part of my learning curve!

paintedpastures 09-23-2013 10:03 PM

I remember my late AQHA show mare as she got older her feet began looking like pancakes had underrun heels etc. she could hardly make it across yard in winter they told me she had flat feet & thin soles:( (ya farrier created!!).I would shoe her & put pads on so she could walk on hard & uneven ground:shock:. Well After several years of bad farrier work I found a new one & wow he fixed her feet had her standing up were she should have been & never wore shoes again!:D I seldom shoe any of my horses when I have it has been more for showing & even that I don't always have them in shoes.

Lady_MCSE 09-24-2013 06:47 AM

Yikes, after looking at the 9/22 photos (without reading the text around them), I thought they were to show us what Eddie's feet looked like after a few weeks with no shoes, and thus ready to be trimmed ...

backinthesaddleagain 09-24-2013 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paintedpastures (Post 2125820)
.......they told me she had flat feet & thin soles:( (ya farrier created!!).I would shoe her & put pads on so she could walk on hard & uneven ground:shock:. Well After several years of bad farrier work I found a new one & wow he fixed her feet had her standing up were she should have been & never wore shoes again!:D I seldom shoe any of my horses when I have it has been more for showing & even that I don't always have them in shoes.


this is exactly what Eddie's usual farrier said. that he was shod all this time because he had flat feet.

well, if Eddie was shod at 2 years old and not given the opportunity to go barefoot until now at 9 years old, and shod by a farrier that allows the under-run heels and forward toe, then yes, he will be flat footed. because of the farrier, not because of his natural hoof conformation!

backinthesaddleagain 09-24-2013 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady_MCSE (Post 2125829)
Yikes, after looking at the 9/22 photos (without reading the text around them), I thought they were to show us what Eddie's feet looked like after a few weeks with no shoes, and thus ready to be trimmed ...

nope, that was within 2 hours of the farrier leaving :(

paintedpastures 09-24-2013 07:22 PM

Took some pics of my horses feet for comparison :D They had feet done almost 2 weeks ago

My Gelding's




My one mare's




Hinds:;)


zaza 09-24-2013 08:09 PM

This horse looks like he needs supplements!! I mean serious hoof supplements. Smartpakequine.com sells some inexpensive variety of hoof supplements.
Clearly doesn't have thrush issues, but the right front had an abscess that traveled to the coronal band and why wasn't that addressed? What is the ferrier’s excuse for that one? He must of been in so much pain.
I would be shocked if this horse isn't lame right now. When you round pen him for a while or when you take him out of the stall the next day after a good workout, does he bob his head when walking? I mean like a noticeable bob (head moves up and down) at a walk when it should be relax because he is moving slowly on a flat surface. That would be a sign of front hoof pain. The hoof angle doesn't match the leg at all which would mean the front heels are way to short and the toe is way too long and the only way to correct that initially until it grows out is by corrective shoeing with a wedge to elevate the heel. Once his hoof shape matches and the heel is grown out you can have a comfortable bare foot. Until then moving is going to be so painful regardless of being shod or not because that bad angle puts way too much pinching on the tendons/ligaments in the back and after a good workout he is going to feel it. Most farriers shoe like one size fits all and are not comfortable with changing the shape and angle of a hoof.
Ask your self one thing, or the owner for that matter, if his feet are obviously unhealthy why keep using the same method that clearly hasn't changed in years (ferrier). The reason I say all of this is because it happened to me! my horse was barefoot his whole life and had hooves that "looked" really nice (no cracks, not dish shaped, no abscess) but always lame after a good workout. I am so lucky I had a good vet come finally (I had several before shrug their shoulders) out and tell me that he sees this problem daily where ferriers shape one size fits all like everyone is a TB and puts horrible pressure on the structures inside and then they are diagnosed with all kinds of things when they go lame. He recommended someone that would fix the angle (and it was hard finding someone because most ferriers I encountered weren't comfortable changing the "norm" and for some reason didn't know how to do corrective shoeing). Once this new ferrier put my horse on "high heels" and cut down on that toe, wow!!! I could work him to the bone, dripping sweat three days in a row and never showed lameness again!!! I mean the change was instantly that day. Previously I had been told it was arthritis (on a 5 year old), then I was told well lets just keep doing what we are doing because it might change (really, 2 years of lameness and can't even work him), then I was told it might be the hocks... all was hogwash, inexperienced people (vets and ferries) that didn't want to think outside the box. Go with your gut! You seem to have a good one.

backinthesaddleagain 09-24-2013 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaza (Post 2125918)
This horse looks like he needs supplements!! I mean serious hoof supplements. Smartpakequine.com sells some inexpensive variety of hoof supplements.
Clearly doesn't have thrush issues, but the right front had an abscess that traveled to the coronal band and why wasn't that addressed? What is the ferrier’s excuse for that one? He must of been in so much pain.
I would be shocked if this horse isn't lame right now. When you round pen him for a while or when you take him out of the stall the next day after a good workout, does he bob his head when walking? I mean like a noticeable bob (head moves up and down) at a walk when it should be relax because he is moving slowly on a flat surface. That would be a sign of front hoof pain. The hoof angle doesn't match the leg at all which would mean the front heels are way to short and the toe is way too long and the only way to correct that initially until it grows out is by corrective shoeing with a wedge to elevate the heel. Once his hoof shape matches and the heel is grown out you can have a comfortable bare foot. Until then moving is going to be so painful regardless of being shod or not because that bad angle puts way too much pinching on the tendons/ligaments in the back and after a good workout he is going to feel it. Most farriers shoe like one size fits all and are not comfortable with changing the shape and angle of a hoof.
Ask your self one thing, or the owner for that matter, if his feet are obviously unhealthy why keep using the same method that clearly hasn't changed in years (ferrier). The reason I say all of this is because it happened to me! my horse was barefoot his whole life and had hooves that "looked" really nice (no cracks, not dish shaped, no abscess) but always lame after a good workout. I am so lucky I had a good vet come finally (I had several before shrug their shoulders) out and tell me that he sees this problem daily where ferriers shape one size fits all like everyone is a TB and puts horrible pressure on the structures inside and then they are diagnosed with all kinds of things when they go lame. He recommended someone that would fix the angle (and it was hard finding someone because most ferriers I encountered weren't comfortable changing the "norm" and for some reason didn't know how to do corrective shoeing). Once this new ferrier put my horse on "high heels" and cut down on that toe, wow!!! I could work him to the bone, dripping sweat three days in a row and never showed lameness again!!! I mean the change was instantly that day. Previously I had been told it was arthritis (on a 5 year old), then I was told well lets just keep doing what we are doing because it might change (really, 2 years of lameness and can't even work him), then I was told it might be the hocks... all was hogwash, inexperienced people (vets and ferries) that didn't want to think outside the box. Go with your gut! You seem to have a good one.

zaza, this horse just came out of shoes two days ago for the first time in 7 years. 7 years of the same farrier working on him and shaping the feet this way. he will not be going in a wedge shoe, as his feet need a break from shoes - and i am making sure that happens. at least for the winter, since his owner did mention putting shoes back on in the spring. hopefully by then, Eddie's feet will have recovered enough that shoeing will not be as detrimental if shoes are an absolute must by his owner. what i would like to see is Eddie stay barefoot, as his workload and surfaces he lives/works on are not enough to necessitate shoes.

as for farrier, i know of two that i would trust to do corrective trimming to bring Eddie's feet back to good. i am going to discuss with owner on having my choice of farrier out instead of Eddie's usual farrier, and i will be giving Eddie the feet he deserves over time - 'wrecked' hooves cannot be corrected in one trim without causing damage to feet and legs. i figure on at least a few trims over the next while to get a start on where we need to be. i'm prepared for Eddie to be sore at times in the next while here, and am ready to sacrifice riding time so that he can get better feet.

supplements - yes, i am getting him on a supplement. Smilie has suggested a couple of different brands and i will be going with one of those.

that abscess was there when i began leasing him. when i test rode him a couple weeks prior it wasn't there. so it blew at some point in between. it is a surface issue only now, from what i can see and feel, and has healed considerably, along with growing down from the top edge of the coronet band to the bottom edge. it does not cause him any pain.

he has not come up 'head bobbing' lame, even after a good workout, but has been stiff in his front legs, landing toe first, and when being ridden has tripped a number of times after catching his toes when striding with the back legs. this is all when he did have shoes on. i've been leasing him for just about 2 months now, so have had time to study how he moves.

he is on pasture, at an all outdoor facility. no sitting around in a stall at all. where i board him we let the horses be horses when us humans aren't working with them.

i very lightly longed him at a walk tonight, and his stride looks a bit more 'free' and his leg movement has a bit more reach to it. i would say he was landing half toe first and half flat footed. his feet feel a tad warmer than before. circulation is increasing :) i know it is way too early to make a prognosis on how things will go through his barefoot transition, but tonight made me smile. he was rather hesitant to walk down a hill when i went out to bring him in from pasture though, but i would suspect his heels would be tender, being asked to actually walk on them for the first time in years.

backinthesaddleagain 09-25-2013 09:39 PM

happy to report that Eddie is walking just fine on grass and dirt tonight! he is ouchy on areas where there are some rocks, but i expect he will be that way for a while. tonight he walked down the same hill in pasture, that he was hesitant on yesterday, with no problem!

backinthesaddleagain 09-26-2013 09:40 PM

so the issue isn't just feet :(
 
went out to the barn tonight and met with a fantabulous equine chiro! i was doing a little bit of walking bareback in the arena, and chiro was there and within ten strides of Eddie walking after i got on, he calls across to me \'your horse is out!\'. i told him he just had his shoes pulled Sunday, so he is a bit tender, but chiro said that would not be causing the issues he is seeing.

turns out Eddie has some mis-alignment in his left shoulder and right hip. chiro did his push/poke and wow, you could see the discomfort Eddie was feeling :( this better explains the stiff feeling i get from Eddie\'s front end, and chiro confirmed that.

i don\'t know if this is caused by his feet being the way they are over time, or if it is more of a separate issue that just happens to be happening the same time as foot issues, or if the two go hand in hand. chiro mentioned that treatment would be a combo of bringing the feet right and adjusting the sore areas.

chiro is also a farrier. this is the farrier that does many of the horses at my barn, and those feet on those horses look great. he comes all the way from BC every month to six weeks, clockwork. need to get Eddie\'s owner on board to let me have this guy work on Eddie, top to bottom, to make him right.

i\'ve got that \'falling down the rabbit hole like Alice\' feeling again, lol, because the chiro is a topic i haven\'t even touched on yet. off to research!!!


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