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Old 05-10-2012, 07:17 AM  
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Lamina showing?? ack! Pictures!

So I noticed when I came home last friday that it looks like TC has lamina coming out of his white line!! Farrier is coming today so I didn't call him because he is a PITA to get out here (we are the only clients out this way). As horrible as it sounds, I was worried maybe he foundered. We have left him barefoot, but the hoof boots only lasted about 4 weeks and his toes got too long.... Farrier moved us to 6 weeks which p*** me off but he said he can't get out here any sooner. Today I am telling him nope, he better be okay with me getting someone out in between his trims (I like him as he is a good farrier, just doesn't like coming all the way out here for 2 horses, but we will be getting another horse in the fall).

Anyways, farrier is coming out today... CAN he still be barefoot, or am I going to have to go back to shoes. I have NEVER seen something like this before!! His toe is EXtreMELY long... BUt he doesn't seem extremely painful, either... He seems the same from the nav. point of view. He was pretty sound with the boots, but when his toes got too long and the boots wouldn't stay on any more I stuck him on stall rest again (about 2 weeks now).

So, what does lamina showing mean? I am pretty freaked out!! I am finding stuff saying founder, white line, long toe....

He really needs a trim, could it just be from needing a trim? I am not exactly sure if the white line is stretched though. I will get some pics when I go out to the barn this morning...






And just to show how stinking messed up my horses feet are.. =( Do you think he can still continue barefoot w/boots?









Since my farrier is not a natural barefoot trimmer, I am going to post some more pictures after he comes out, and maybe you guys can help me determine if he is doing a good job?
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:04 AM  
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Is he wearing hoof boots all the time? If he is, I would file pretty often because he isn't wearing the walls down naturally. Does he have to wear hoof boots all the time?

It looks like most of his problem is because he needs a trim (and probably filing in between trims). His walls are pretty long. When the walls get longer, they actually are pried away from the hoof as the horse walks. This is probably why he has a stratched white line.

Think about trying to do any kind of work with really long fingernails.

I would continue leaving him barefoot, but with more frequent trims/filing. Also see if you can let the boots off of him, this will do him good. Does your farrier put a bevel or mustang roll around the walls? (This makes the bottom of the hoof appeer round rather than flat.

Check out the link below

http://www.abchoofcare.com/MustangHooves.htm

Also look around at Pete Ramey's stuff...there is A LOT of helpful information here.

www.hoofrehab.com/

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Old 05-10-2012, 10:08 AM  
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I had to learn to trim my horses myself because I moved 2 hours away and couldn't take my wonderful farrier with me! I couldn't find anyone in the area that did a decent barefoot trim, so I contacted my original farrier and he came out and taught me to trim, and after that I sent him pictures of my work and he would critique them for me.

Now I work on my horses feet every 3-4 weeks, (not as much to do at once) and they stay nicer that way.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:13 AM  
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I don't claim to know what all I am doing, lol. I don't plan on him living in hoof boots, but 6 weeks ago was pretty much the only time he has ever been barefoot in his 10 years of life, so we have been trying to ease into it. But I can take them off a few hours a day and try to work up to more. I am going to ask my farrier today if he can show me how to rasp down the toe in between his trims, or if I need to get a complete trim in between. The more I looked the more I was thinking it was because his toes are so long...

I am not sure if he does any type of roll or anything. He is supposed to be getting trimming advice from a friend who apprenticed with pete ramey, but who know if he is... My farrier really thinks that this isn't going to work for my horse, but the shoes were not helping any more so I decided we had to try something. And honestly, a week after being barefoot he was the soundest he has been in a long time. Unfortunately since his toe is so long again we have gone back to being off a bit.

muh141, yeah I would much rather do trims every 4 weeks, we were at 5 with the shoes and then last time he informed us we were moving to 6 to get on schedule with some other client... That is just not going to work! I am not very outspoken to our farrier, but I think this time I am going to have to ask the hard questions.... because 6 is NOT going to work, I either need to learn how to do trims in between or, rasp or get someone else out....
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:23 AM  
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If you decide you want to rasp in between trimmings, you can also get Jaime Jackson's "Creating the Perfect Hoof" DVD (i got a used one on amazon pretty cheap $15). This will help with some of the logistics of how exactly to balance the hoof and also techniques of holding the hoof while trimming. I found that this video really answered a lot of my questions.

Good luck! I KNOW how frustrating this can be!
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:43 PM  
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That toe is way out of control. It need taken WAY back and the horse booted for work. X rays shoul show exactly where breakover should be placed and it needs to be maintained as close as possible for awhile.

Ideally, this horse should be getting touched up every two weeks for the first 6 - 8 weeks or so after removing the shoes with feet like this till he has better alignment. The lamina showing is just growth and stretched forward toe. Its the product of a cause and not a concern on its own.

Your horse has a very weak, underrun, and contracted back of the foot that need rehabilitating as well as a very flaired forward, long toe. He needs good frequent trimming right now and yes, i would leave him bare awhile if this is the product of years of shoeing with the same farrier. The lack of knowledge of the equine foot shows. I gather this horse is labled "navicular" and it shows in the weakness of his foot. Id bet he toe walked much of his shod life as well as well as was likely short shod and/or wedged or eggbared depriving him of a properly supported heel based on those feet.

Im not against shoes at all but I find that we have a serious lack of truely skilled farriers out there who really understand how to maintain and fix the equine hoof in shoes. Barefoot done at least reasonably well is more forgiving of mistakes and allows us to boot for comfort. For me, proper healthy hoof form and comfort are paramount. Everything else is below that.

When his trim is on order and he is sound in boots, he needs miles and miles of proper heel first or at least flat footed movement to develop his foot. Comfort for the back of his foot is paramount while he recovers his feet.

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Old 05-10-2012, 01:05 PM  
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Well said Trinity!

Sirita, The more I look at your pictures, the more I think you should find a different farrier. If you can find a farrier that specializes in barefoot, I would definitely change.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:30 PM  
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I'd be looking for someone else to work on my horse, especially since he doesn't think going barefoot is going to work and so doesn't seem to be behind trying something different. I think you need to find a good barefoot trimmer and even better if you can learn to trim yourself.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:47 PM  
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Well before everyone jumps to conclusions... this horse has been xrayed up the wazoo, and trimmed and shod to the best of the vets and farriers abilities. This vet comes highly reccomended from 1) my vet 2) the equine hospital an hour away and 3) my vet school... So it's not his "knowledge of the equine foot" that's the problem, he just doesn't think being barefoot is going to help this horse. It is amazing how sound this horse has stayed since the dx of navicular as a 3 yo under a different farrier (why we switched)...

He was very nice, he explained the reason why the lamina was showing was because his hoof was so hard last time he couldn't get as much sole as he needed to out. And even though I wasn't there I can attest to I have seen my farrier try to take a brand new hoof knife through his sole and not manage to get through it. But because he has been barefoot his foot was much softer and he was able to clean it up more.

He showed me how to rasp them down, watched me do it, and he is going to be out around the 23rd to check it out and see how he is doing, and he can trim him again if he needs it on that schedule + with our regular trims...

So I was actually pretty pleased.
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:12 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
That toe is way out of control. It need taken WAY back and the horse booted for work. X rays shoul show exactly where breakover should be placed and it needs to be maintained as close as possible for awhile.

Ideally, this horse should be getting touched up every two weeks for the first 6 - 8 weeks or so after removing the shoes with feet like this till he has better alignment. The lamina showing is just growth and stretched forward toe. Its the product of a cause and not a concern on its own.

Your horse has a very weak, underrun, and contracted back of the foot that need rehabilitating as well as a very flaired forward, long toe. He needs good frequent trimming right now and yes, i would leave him bare awhile if this is the product of years of shoeing with the same farrier. The lack of knowledge of the equine foot shows. I gather this horse is labled "navicular" and it shows in the weakness of his foot. Id bet he toe walked much of his shod life as well as well as was likely short shod and/or wedged or eggbared depriving him of a properly supported heel based on those feet.

Im not against shoes at all but I find that we have a serious lack of truely skilled farriers out there who really understand how to maintain and fix the equine hoof in shoes. Barefoot done at least reasonably well is more forgiving of mistakes and allows us to boot for comfort. For me, proper healthy hoof form and comfort are paramount. Everything else is below that.

When his trim is on order and he is sound in boots, he needs miles and miles of proper heel first or at least flat footed movement to develop his foot. Comfort for the back of his foot is paramount while he recovers his feet.
Very good detail by Trinity
For barefoot re habilitation to work, the hoof has to be maintained , or worked towards the correct parameters, as live sole dictates, using hoof boots as needed to encourage correct movement, as both movement and keeping the hoof from being over grown like that are vital to the entire barefoot re-habilitation

Hoof boots allow you to back up that toe, and yet keep him comfortable to encourage him to move.

The problem with a lot of the older veterinary knowledge, far as horse's hooves, much is based on age old accepted principles and not in light of newer findings by the likes of dr Robert Bowker
His point that equine professionals see so many abnormal feet that they have become accepted as 'normal'-ie flat thin soles, sensitive back of the foot, etc, etc
Just shoing a horse might enable him to move soundly, but in many cases does not fix the under lying cause in the first place, so that the horse becomes one that 'needs to wear shoes'
Barefoot re habilitation goes beyond a simple trim, but includes entire life
style
Diet and movement are equally important. The more a horse does not use the back of his foot, the more un developed it remains and sensitive, and the longer he lands toe first, the more the entire cycle continues
Looking at your horse's feet-they did not get like that over night. I would have your vet consult with Dr R Bowker at the foot lab at Michigan State
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:51 PM  
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I understand your points smilie, and that is why we are trying this. No, his hooves did not get like this over night. But in general, this horse is a conformation nightmare from head to toe. We can only trim as short as what we have to work with. I have taken him and had him xrayed, trimmed, and then xrayed again to see just how much we could take off, and his coffin angles are correct when he is trimmed, I know he has poor hoof conformation, and that's why I decided that the shoeing (pads, equithane, rocker toe) was just not working, we needed to work on opening up those heels. And like the farrier said, last time he was out he could not get through his sole to take more off. He was able to get much more off this time, and he is going to check on him in 2 weeks.

I didn't get pictures of the after, but I will tomorrow night.
As far as food goes, this horse gets whatever he will eat. the only hay he eats enough of for it to be a hay only diet is bermuda, and since he colicked on it I don't want to do that. So I shove as much hay as I can in front of him and I have to give him grain, period. With the grain I am giving him now he is on the thin side, and that's all I can do. And now that his toes are back in line he is outside living the horsey life.
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Old 05-10-2012, 06:28 PM  
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Hi Sirita
I know how hard you have tried with this horse, and believe me, I was in a similar situation when I first pulled the shoes on my gelding Einstein, some 4 years ago
Farriers let his toe get longer and longer and his heels more under run. He also has some mild bouts of laminitis, which over time, causes distal decent-with the entire bony column sinking lower in the hoof capsule. As this happens, of course, there is less and less sole between the ground and the coffin bone, which, even when aleigned correctly, has migrated down the hoof capsule, which in turn creates a longer than normal toe wall and flat soles
This can't be corrected in one or even several trims, as one should always obey live sole, and never trim into it. By keeping the walls short and bevelled, backing up the toe, making the horse comfortable enough to use the back of his foot, in time, the coffin bone is driven back up higher in the hoof capsule, with concavity building and also sole depth
Einstein is living proof in my books that this works. When I started, his toe wall was at least 2 inches longer than it is now, and he had zero concavity.
He now has a much shorter toe wall, and lots of concavity
I was ready to put him down, as he spent a lot of time lying down and moved only when he needed to, and was tender on any hard ground.
He now gallops in the pasture again, walks normal and spends as much time on his feet as any other horse
So yes, how low the coffin bone is in the foot dictates as to how much you can back that toe up this point in time, but by following a hoof re -habilitation protecol far as trimming, as that new capsule grows down, one makes continued progress , instead of just spinning ones wheels.
Just go to Pete Ramey's site, and under the case studies you should find pictures that illustrate how over time this pathology can be corrected.
If he has lots of dead sole, like he appears to, in order to get to live sole plane for that first set up trim, try soaking his feet before the farrier gets there

http://www.minimus.biz/default.aspx?Affiliate=579
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:49 PM  
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How was horse shod prior to going bare?


As for questions you had, seem you've answers.


All those that said to "get a different farrier" based on a brief history and a few pics, tell them to "GET BNT!".
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:23 AM  
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Show us current pictures of a fresh trim and I might change my mind. Till then, I see a foot that hasnt been managed properly and was headed down a dark road that leads to unsoundness despite everything you throw at the horse. When your best weapon is a hammer and steel, everything looks like shoes. The farriers statement that he thinks this horse cant go bare is very telling.

One thing is always certain, shoes or no...the bulk of the "foot" should compromise the back half of the foot and if shod should have good heel support extending back. You had a nasty bonnet foot there that had to exist when the horse was shod as well since i can see the nail holes and the trim job that would have been under a shoe. After the shoe was removed, he was left the toe with no bevel for proper breakover relief, hard sole or not.

Im just trying to point out a few things based on experiance. You asked after all
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:52 AM  
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Well, I don't have a lot of pictures of his shoes, but this was the second time he was done like 4 or so years ago by this farrier. Believe it or not, I thin he has gone up a size or two since the farrier started, the farrier I had before had him in a pony shoe (and he is 16 hh)... Ideally I would have liked a little longer heel on the shoe, but good lord every time we tried a day later he would pull the shoe... with bell boots and all sorts of other contraptions I tried to keep him from pulling them off.



And he did bevel the foot when he trimmed yesterday. I know that because I watched him do it, and he made me rasp the top of the foot down to the bevel. So when I do get a picture, don't be all blahh when you see the mess I made (I kindof did an oops with the rasp )...
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:32 PM  
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I'm by far an expert, but even in that shod pic you posted , the focus was on the heels first, instead of backing up the toe and then getting those long under run heels under control
I can see where the farrier tried to get the horse baring more weight at the back of his foot,with those wedges, but in my humble opinion, backing up the toe which causing the entire foot to run forward was not really done
Feet look very similar to how Einstein's used to be-take away those wedges and the heels are long and under run
BNTNail, be sure to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:21 PM  
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hmm... I always thought that by making the breakover behind where the toe naturally ends it was a way to take off more toe if you couldn't get the toe that far back. I am a novice at this stuff, so I am trying to take everyones opinions to heart.

So this is his front right, his "navicular" foot. To me, (and correct me if I am wrong) this one looks better than his left. I know, he still has more toe than he should, but I am thinking it's hard to get it all off in one whack, so if we can keep it back as much as possible by more frequent trims?? idk... I guess my main concern is that I haven't found another farrier around here that I can trust... I have contacted a few barefoot people and no one will service my area.... And all the other ones i have found advertising around here charge $20 for a trim and $50 for a set of shoes, so you can see how weary I am of that.... (that is EXTREMELY cheap)




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Old 05-11-2012, 07:28 PM  
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Not going to comment on the photos, because I have no expertise, but just wanted to share an experience.

My new mare has wacky feet due to being shod for "higher knee action" rather than her foot. Crushed heels, long toe giant frog, and flat sole. I let my farrier be agressive and take the toe and heel back with the wacky 3/4 shoe, and then made her comfortable with bute and magic cushion for the days right after the trim/shoeing. Also keeping her in non-abrasive footing. Her hoof angle has changed significantly in 5 weeks and she has grown more heel than I would have expected.

Perhaps magic cushion and wrapping the foot may be more productive than the hoof boots and allow the farrier to be more agressive?
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:50 PM  
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To me the left foot looks better, with the heel more under the horse, while the navicular foot has jamming at the coronary band at the quarters and look where the support at the heels is so much more foreward on the navicular foot, compared to the left
The solar shots show some weird bar formation, with some bar material imbedied into the sole
Low heels are good, just not under run heels that appear low
In following Jamie Jackson's trimming of long toes, under run heels, you first back up the toes. As the toes become more in line of what they should be, then those heels can also be addressed. If you try and work both end at the same time,you wind up spinning your wheels
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:01 AM  
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hmm is right clicking disabled for this forum? I wanted to draw some lines to give a few examples... Id like to see pictures with the camera on the ground for better angles as well if at all possible. Here is a site that shows how to get good hoof shots for online evaluation...

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.co...of-photos.html


Ditto smiley about working on the toe first. Until the pull of the long toe is eliminated, the heel will continue to run forward. Also, I rarely touch sole at the toe and I never shorten the length of the toe from the bottom. I back up toes from the front with much stronger bevels that you have there.

I also actually will allow the heels to go a bit longish while I wiat for the toes to get in line to encourage and achieve proper bone alignment and rasp the proper angle into them even while they are run under to encourage proper hoof form. It works. Its hard to explain and I suck at pictures but i just did this with a TB that had a pretty nasty high low grazing foot. Its a fine art IMO and I do often employ casting and soleguard or somesuch to support the heels and sole while the changes occur if needed.
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