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Old 12-28-2009, 08:18 PM  
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Stone Bruising or something else? Help!

Can someone tell me what this might "look" like? What signs of discomfort or pain my horse might be exhibiting?

I ask because (and here's the backstory):
Socks colic'd Saturday night. Just some gas colic, lots of hand walking, so we got farts and poop. Put him in his pen, where he ate just a little bit listlessly, then went to lay down.

No way, got him back out and gave him some banamine, then did more hand walking.

He was still in a bit of pain when we put him up again, but he had pooped and he was a bit more interested in eating.

WHEW!

This morning (Monday), the BO calls to tell me that Socks is hurting. I can't make it out until tonight, but she says she'll keep an eye on him and let me know if he gets worse.

She mentioned a swollen knee.

But, when I went out tonight (after dark, mind you), he was standing fine.

Until I pulled him outta the pen, where he started limping. Badly.

Thought perhaps an abcess, and he was a wee bit tender near the frog, but I took my hoof knife to it and pared down some of the growth. No icky black stuff, or anything. Nothing, in fact. (Side note, farrier mentioned that with the cold, thrust has died off in the ground, so this shouldn't be an issue. Fact or fiction?)

So, I felt his leg; knee isn't swollen. Hoofs are warm, so there's circulation. Couldn't find any puncture wounds, or any particular sore spots on his leg.

Which lead me to wonder if he might have gotten a stone bruise during the hand walking, but with the banamine, didn't hurt at the time, but is hurting now? Maybe he wrenched a muscle in that leg when we were walking, and didn't exhibit pain?

ANY ideas?

I hate seeing him in pain like this and so am fishing for some ideas as to what to do.

BO is suggesting, of course, bute. I have none, though she has some powdered on hand (guess who'll be looking at doing that ASAP?!); so am considering it just to ease his discomfort.

I swear, he's usually Mister Reliable-Doesn't-Give-A-Moment's-Worry, and now he's Momma's-Big-Klutzy-Baby.

Horses!
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:27 PM  
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Colic can very scarey, and yes banamine can help the leg and mask the pain, if he continues to act "off" my suggestion is to get vet out to take blood test and determine if he is having these issues due to something else going on..
Lyme, infection, sand colic,
Hopefully he will be fine, sometimes it is just better to be safe than sorry. jmo
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:51 PM  
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Do you think that he might be experiencing founder??
Sometimes a horse that is foundering will want to get down, and take the weight off his sore feet.
You did say the hooves were warm to the touch.
Also, if he were foundering, the pain could have made him act a little 'colic y' as well.
I would want my vet out ASAP, and get a proper diagnosis.
Founder, and colic both, are 2 things that can get a lot worse if not properly attended to.
Hope Socks get straightened out, but if he were my horse, I would have my vet out to diagnosis the problem (s).
Good luck and keep us posted.
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:26 PM  
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is the horse

is the horse shod or barefoot?
Have you used clencher calipers to compress the hoof in different areas to determine sensitivity.......Do not give this horse bute or bannamine.....this will aggrevate his stomache more then give him relief......especially if you think he is colicky....you cannot diagnos the problem either if you dull the pain before checking him out......The hoof should not feel warm or hot in any way........how much grain/sweet feed do you feed this horse? The only way for him to founder really is OD on the starches in the winter....ie....get into the grain bin or too many apples or too many carrots etc.......
That is not true whatsoever about thrush dying because of the cold.....absolute nonsense.....I assure you it is alive and well......it is a balance issue like the PH of the hoof..........that is why ACV works well for it....please the next time do not pare out the frog........you just increased your horses sensitivity on his feet by doing so.......LET IT ALONE......only if it is necrotic do you cut it out.....only the flaps can you clip or cut off never pare into the frog.......you want it as big and tough as it can grow.......it is there for a reason and will manage itself if given the chance......unless of course you have shoes on your horse....then your frog is basically a dead chunk of flesh that receives no stimuli.......that is why your farrier cuts it out to look real nice because it is non functional.
See your VET if this problem persists.......
Horses stone bruise because they do not have enough depth in the sole of the foot.......the bottom of your horses foot should exhibit concavity.......put a flat stick across the hoof at its widest point....it should be atleast 3/4 of an inch for the collateral groove depth........this measures your sole thickness........post some pics of your horses feet lifted off the ground....underneath.....from the sides and catch the angles......
NS4H
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:45 AM  
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Shayla any update and above post was spot on, except I give shot of banamine to keep horse comfortable until vet arrives. of course with vet on the phone giving instructions.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:57 AM  
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I understand its cold, but have you tried soaking the foot in warm water with epsom salts and applying ectymol (drawing sauve) then wrapping the foot ?? If it is a bruise/abcess this outta help.

The knee, could he have twisted the leg going up/down during his colic episode.

Are you for sure the pain/limp is in the lower foot and not higher ?

Call the vet ~now !! We can only give advise and not diagnose. This forum is not to replace your vet !!

Redboy was right about founder, but not sure if it would come on so quick.

When your vet it out, ask for the bute. It comes in a tub that is already ground up and you just keep it in your fridge in the barn and is so handy to have for times like this. Pain increases a horses stress.

Good luck
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:17 AM  
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I'm more leaning toward abcess/stone bruise, honestly. It's a 'go with your gut' kind of thing, and in every other way, he's acting normally.

The only time he went down during his colic was when both I and the BO were present, and he just laid down like normal. Being careful though, I went back in, he got right back up again like normal, and I haltered him and we went for a walk.

It's not founder. He's in a pen unless I'm there to allow him out, and for turn out he's in an arena. He also doesn't display any of the other normal founder signs.

No sand for sand colic (we don't have sand here). The colic was just gas colic, which he's had before a few years ago and the vet handled in exactly the same fashion. Banamine and lots of walking until he pooped and farted and was back to normal.

I keep leaning to stone bruise because his pen doesn't have many rocks/stones, whereas where we walked did/does. Also thinking abcess because it came on so quick.

Didn't have access to warm water, though I could have soaked him in cold as I did with my other abcess. Will probably do that this evening after work.

Am sure it's lower leg/hoof, mostly because of the way he was propping it on the toe of the hoof more often than not. Again, it's the way I feel in my gut about it.

Beside his foot being ouchy, he's acting normally in every other way. Wants his hay, inhales his feed and acts like he always does.
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:34 AM  
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answer this

how could just walking your horse on stones or rocks give it a stone bruise.......I do not understand.........you should also not pen this horse up....you should turn him out 24/7........movement will break up the abcess, bruise, whatever.......when you get punched in the arm and you get a big bruise....do you put your arm in sling? Or do you move your arm stretch it and massage it to break up the bruise???? why would not your horse get the same opportunity......movement and percussion stimulates blood flow which helps bring white blood cells which help fight abnormalities.....
So even if you get your horse past this episode you still have a problem....no way in heck should you stone bruise so easily...........my horses walk on a stone track at my house....they have a choice but they prefer the outside track of stone to the grassy field.....I used to have a fence like a lane to keep them on it, but they don't need it any longer they just walk in the area that used to be fenced and then they poop in the grassy areas........I put hay out stretched out about 100 apart and they just move pile to pile.....just food for thought.....
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:43 AM  
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Because he could have had a stone bruise before the colic episode. Or an abcess that just so happened to crop up so close to a colic episode. Stranger things have been known to happen.

I board. Not everyone has the ability to do 24/7 turn out. We work with what we can with what we have. And, what I have available to me for my use that I feel is the best and safest for my horses is a boarding situation where they are kept in large and adequate pens with a BO who lives on site 24/7. If not for her, and if they were pasture kept, the colic episode might not have been caught in adequate time in the first place to have prevented it from getting worse. So, this whole set up works best for my horses, thanks.

His pen isn't small; it is, in fact, a rather large size pen where he has plenty of room to move.

The only drawback to his pen is with all the rain, the pen is muddy, which has caused his feet to be unusually soft for him (my farrier says he has some of the best feet he's ever seen on a horse). And most likey DID, in fact, contribute to one of my other horses having an abcess back in September. This is why I feel this is a far more likely explanation.

And, since you asked earlier, he is barefoot, but has never had an opportunity to walk around on rocks for long periods of time, and has always been a bit "ouchy" when I've had him walk over them because he doesn't have a callus built up (if I allow, he'll meander off the rocky road and walk in the grass as his personal preference). Some horses just don't do well on rocks/stones until they've had a chance to be on them. He's always been either in a grassy pasture in Kansas or just dirt pastures (again in Kansas). The ground here in central Texas is very different from the ground in Kansas. The farrier has, in fact, suggested I lay down pea gravel in his pen to help him build up callus, but, since it's not my property, that's not an option for me. Am looking at Easy Boots when we start trail riding come spring.
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:50 AM  
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Do you have availability at all to keep him up to a stall for a week or so? That way you could pack his foot and keep him in some very dry bedding and get his feet hardened back up??
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:03 AM  
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shayla

sorry shayla...I did not intend to make you feel offended that you do not do the best for your horses..........I know you do......I just come off as an a**hole sometimes....it is me I am sorry.......I cannot help it.......I really only talk to animals, so talking to humans is difficult because of my lack of tact. Except my wife but she really does not listen to anything I say. Horses are not in her world.
pea gravel is a wonderful idea........maybe talk to the BO and see maybe they would let you lay that in there.........yeah no horse will walk on gravel roads when they can walk on the side........my track is pea gravel and river rock......very smooth and round..........it helps allot for when I ride in Fort Valley...........
about the boots.........you know for rehabbing a foot.......easy boot epics are the best. but for performance the Renegade hoof Boots.......
http://www.renegadehoofboots.com/index.html
they work best for me and my friends...........they do endurance here in Va on the OD 100 and for eventing and foxhunting for those that choose boots.......
I view boots as a tool to adapt the hoof to becoming shoeless/bootless........I really do follow Pete Ramey because with his methodology I find the greatest results..........I follow his baseline but the hoof will tell you what to do best....
I would think if your farrier told you about pea gravel then he is atleast knowledgeable about alternative measures for hoof care........is he a barefoot trimmer? what methodology does he follow.........
NS4H

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Old 12-29-2009, 10:43 AM  
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Shayla - I think your instincts are correct. My horse will stone bruise quite easily on rocks that are as big as your hand and somehow that happens even though his sole is quite nicely cupped.

Also, when it's cold like it is, I sure hope that you'd feel some heat in the hooves since there IS blood flowing through there. When it's cold like this, if I was concerned about founder, I'd be feeling for a strong digital pulse instead of using heat in the hooves as a symptom. I mean, just the sun hitting a black hoof can make it feel warm in chilly temperatures.

Any number of things could've happened for him to strain something in there as well. Perhaps the strain came before the colic and the colic was a result? I mean, if I'm ouchy, I'm not going to want to move to my water....

I hope you continue to see improvement.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:12 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoShoes4Horses View Post
sorry shayla...I did not intend to make you feel offended that you do not do the best for your horses..........I know you do......I just come off as an a**hole sometimes....it is me I am sorry.......I cannot help it.......I really only talk to animals, so talking to humans is difficult because of my lack of tact. Except my wife but she really does not listen to anything I say. Horses are not in her world.
Well, you should really try to help it - being rude, that is.

I happen to personally know shayla and know that her horses do get the best of care. You can't just always assume that just because someone isn't doing things your way, they don't take care of their horse. It is possible to be passionate about your beliefs without being rude.


Shayla, since it's cold, you could try packing it with Icthammol to see if it draws anything out. Sorry Socks is hurt.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:14 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Range View Post

Also, when it's cold like it is, I sure hope that you'd feel some heat in the hooves since there IS blood flowing through there.
When it's cold like this, if I was concerned about founder, I'd be feeling for a strong digital pulse instead of using heat in the hooves as a symptom.
I mean, just the sun hitting a black hoof can make it feel warm in chilly temperatures.

Any number of things could've happened for him to strain something in there as well. Perhaps the strain came before the colic and the colic was a result?
I mean, if I'm ouchy, I'm not going to want to move to my water....

I hope you continue to see improvement.
Just for clarification, and to those who may not understand my original post here,..,
my comments about founder had to do with the OP mentioning the feet felt warm AFTER the Banamine had been administered (or was my understanding).
The Banamine could possibly MASK symptoms.
It would not be my ONLY indicator for founder, but sudden onset of 'ouchy/sore' feet would give ME reason to suspect possible laminitis or founder
(especially given that IRL, I 'personally', deal with an 'easy keeper' and unfortunately, in my 'personal' experience, it often tends to be near the top of my list when he comes up sore).
And the colic, or mild colic symptoms could be secondary to this possible 'brewing' issue.
I'm not a vet and I don't claim to be, but was just throwing out some 'possible' scenarios,.., and as ALWAYS, I would definitely suggest calling the vet.
Good luck, and hope he shows rapid improvement.

Last edited by redboy : 12-30-2009 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:05 PM  
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Dont know if he has a stone bruise or abcess. A ferrier can tell you. I always though a stone bruise would present itself on the underside of the hoof in the sole and be discolored, and usually doesnt show any signs of inflamation- thats how it always looks to me, but only dealt with a few of them.

Abcesses though.. I deal with them all the time! Normally the coronet band should feel no different in temp then the rest of the horse. If it is radiating a lot of heat then to me thats a sing of inflamation and a horse getting ready to abcess.
For pulled muscles or strains I have to try and find the tender spot and the litle bit of heat they radiate. Some spots on dream have been the size of a quarter in temp difference.. but usually it spreads over time unless I get pulticed.

I use Ice Tight (by at my local Tractor Supply Store) for my pultice and put it on the coronet band and ankle to help draw off the heat and may even wrap with a wet paper towel then a leg wrap. longer the pultice is wet the longer it draws out the heat. (when i did this with gaaylah this last time it was about 9*F out and I went to go check it an hour later to make sure her leg wasnt getting frost bitten.. i could have cooked eggs on the amount of heat it was drawing off!) And i do keep my horses out in the field though I may move them to a smaller pasture for easier access for me to doctor and so they dont feel the need to slog over 50 acres with the herd!

I've also noticed that depending on the size of the abcess and how fequently a horse gets one depends on how they show their pain. Ace who used to get one every other week might limp a day or two before it blows out and then is fine. Dream who gets more pulled muscles then abcess, shows pain for a little longer. My Gaaylah girl is having her first abcess and is acting like a little girl who has just stubbed her toe and swears its falling off.. i do admit its a big abcess, but still! LOL Such drama.
Signs of pain (at least for my horses) include: going off feed, not cleaing it up, not bearing weight, or in Ace's case.. I dont wanna walk but if your gonna try and catch me and i gonna gimp away as fast as I can!

I dont bute unless they really cant bear much weight on it and then only bute them once a day with a low dose ( i use paste in a tube as I have WAY too many picky eaters). I swear we buy in bulk from vet. 1 tube usually lasts one horse 1 week at a low dose. More expensive.. but so much easy to get down them.

The only time "i" soak the foot is after the abcess has blown and i soak with warm water and salt, then iodine and icthmal it. If the pastures are mussyI might dress it for a day or two and then leave it. Never had a problem with healing. Dont know about soaking in cold water.. but you could always heat the water to a boil at home and bring in a thermos! I use my tea kettle.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:32 AM  
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We have a horse at our barns that has tender feet every now and again. She does get stone bruising quite easily. She will be quite sore for about a day and a half and then fine again. She is a very healthy girl in every other way. Our filly also seems to have tender feet from time to time. Do you think it could be worse when they are in season? My mare's back tends to be sore when she is, just like human women.
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Old 01-01-2010, 05:13 AM  
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Sounds like an abscess to me. Soft feet and walking on rocky roads = recipe for an abscess/stone bruise. If he is really sore it is probably an abscess.
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:12 AM  
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Even though I'd guess from the posts that stone bruising ( or possible abcess) is what you're dealing with, there are a few things that need to be pointed out in this thread.

First, can you see a bruise in the sole or hoof wall? Bruises in horses are just like bruises in people but a little redder in color.

Secondly, what breed of horse is it? Horses do founder in winter, especially horses who ( like mine) only get grain when grass isn't growing. Some horses can founder ( even skinny ones) due to insulin resistance ( diabetes in humans) and Paso Finos are supposed to be extra susceptable to this issue.

Thirdly, noshoes4horses, you have some good points, like don't overly trim the frog and using "clencher calipers" ( I think you mean hoof testers) to check for sensitivity ( by the way, get someone who knows how to use them to teach you before you use them) , but you also have some serious misconceptions about hooves and farriers. Not all farriers over trim frogs, in fact I can think of more farriers who don't than who do.

The reason horses stone bruise is not always because they have too little sole depth, it's because they step on something that applies too much pressure to too small an area on the sole. So that's how walking on stones causes a bruise. As for leaving the horse out to move around and break up the bruise...to me, that's a radical idea...did you know there are shoe modifications designed to protect a bruised area on a hoof so that the bruise won't be engaged at all. And these modifications have been tested and proven effective in healing bruises for hundreds of years?

Also, measuring the collateral grooves ( that's the grooves between the side of the frog and bars of the foot) can indicate sole depth ( I see you've been reading Pete Ramey's stuff) however, there is no magic number 3/4 is a good guide (at the back of the groove, not at the widest part of the hoof) but I know horses who have much less and much more depth and go sound and since the deepest part of the collateral grooves are 1/2 in from the coffin bone you should add that amount when you're considering sole depth. The collateral grooves are much more usefull in determining angle of P3 ( the coffin bone) and in measuring medial/ lateral hoof balance.

I am glad that you are reading and trying to learn more about hooves I just think that some of the things you said are incorrect or not wholely correct. If you would like more reading suggestions please feel free to PM me. I wish more horse people would try to educate themselves more about feet and feed.

Hope this helps
David
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:00 PM  
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Holy Schnikes! I meant to come back and update this!

Just to let everyone know, Socks is fine. No abcess. And, while I still suspect he had a mild bruise somehow, he's moving around and acting just like his old self again.

Thanks Roberts for sticking up for me. I do try to take care of them, and, founder IS something my BO asked me about in passing one day. Now, I've only had Socks for the past 3 or 4 years (time's flying!), and he does have some of the founder 'traits' (for lack of a better word). However, he was a stallion right up to a few days before I picked him up, so I know that contributes to some of that 'look'.

The banamine, at the time, was given to him about 3+ hours after he'd started his first signs of colic (perhaps more). We hand walked for a few hours, he was showing signs of interest in grazing, so we walked a bit more, let him graze as he so desired, then put him in his pen to let him finish up his hay there while standing there to keep an eye on him.

After a few minutes, he laid down, which is when we pulled him out of the pen, gave him...man, memory elludes me now, but less than the full dose of banamine. Then, more walking.

He has never gotten into the feed room (it would take a heck of an act to get into either of the two feed rooms and he'd have to do some serious magic acts to accomplish it!), nor gotten out and gorged on hay/grass/etc.

Anyway, just the lowdown on him;
9 year old Arabian gelding.
Been barefoot for as long as I have had him, and I suspect when his previous (and only other owner) had him.
Has, according to all the farriers who have worked on him (all of 3), the best and toughest feet most of them have dealt with.
Gets 1 and a half scoops Strategy twice daily (no, I'm not 100% sure of the weight, and I know I SHOULD know...no need to spank me) currently, but will be backed down a bit either on that, or we'll be switching feed at some point.
Gets 2 flakes (again, not sure of the weight, BO tosses, and she's usually generous) morning and evening of hay.

My current farrier (who has trimmed both horses now 4 times) is a Master Farrier (trained in England, so he had to work his way up) who is very careful about their feet being balanced to the horse. He's also a huge barefoot advocate as well, though not adverse to shoes should the horse need them.

Now, the only abcesses I've dealt with have been on my Paso Fino, and they blew out the bottom/back of his hoof.

Some of the theories bandied about fpr the colic were; the dramatic weather changes and winds. The fireworks being shot off upsetting him, causing him to get an upset tummy. And, my BO once again suggested that since Strategy is basically 'glued' together with clay, that it just upset his stomach. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that suggestion (the other time was from my vet when he first gas colic'd a few years ago), although it'd be the first time with this particular feed.

Anyway, long story longer *g*, he's fine now. If he's abcessed, he's not displaying any pain signs. I think perhaps he just boo-boo'd himself somehow and it just took a few days to get over the lingering "ouch".

And Range, I meant to take all that useful "Horse Vitals" that are posted here (I used to keep a copy in my Explorer) so I could check digital pulse, but left it at home. Thanks for reminding me about that. DURH!!

And Kanoo; there are stalls available if needed, but he gets so worked up when separated from my other horse, I almost hated to do it (I know, buddy sour issues. Ugh). But, definately WILL do it if the situation calls for it.

Thanks David for posting here. It reminded me I hadn't updated about Socks!

And, so you can see Mister TroubleButt himself (please pardon the dirt!!):


(Yes, I know, he's grazing. Hadn't been but for a couple of minutes. Photo taken 12/19/09)
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:04 PM  
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My friends horse has been limping and she thinks her horse has a stone bruise on her front foot. She said there is a spot in front of the frog that is grey round in shape. Is that typical in what they look like?
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