navicular or not...please see films...NEW PICS and POSTS!!! LOOK!

RedHotTamale17 · 11-15-2009, 06:57 PM

Pics are not good but is anyone familiar with what navicular looks like on digital films...my horse was diagnosed with navicular last spring by one vet ...got a 2nd opinion using the same films and the 2nd vet doesnt see navicular on these films. The films are on a link to my facebook...PLEASE take a look if you are familiar with it. The 2nd vet is a lameness specialist...keep in mind this same horse had a hoof infection in his heels during this same time causing him to be ouchy it was a nasty infection, his heels are still soft, its take so long for them to toughen up so he still gets ouchy, just looking for other opinions and advice!

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...1&id=506445387

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...1810929053 87

redboy · 11-15-2009, 09:17 PM

I would want additional info on the horse's current uses, and symptoms.
When did the lameness start, what were the symptoms of the lameness, and what do you generally use this horse for?
Also, how old or young id this horse?
Sorry, I just like as much info as possible when considering what the problem might be.
Thanks.

misstishus · 11-15-2009, 09:48 PM

I guess I'm not sure what to tell you except to go to a different vet. I've worked in a couple national class barns and dealt with a lot of injuries, lameness issues/pre-purchases, etc and I have NEVER seen a vet willing to evaluate a horse for navicular without a full set of x-rays with shoes pulled. I don't know how they could properly evaluate without top/bottom views. I wish you the best of luck in your situation but my advice is to pull shoes and have a full set of xrays taken and evaluate by another vet.

bntnail · 11-15-2009, 11:25 PM

Can't see rads. Says to log in.

Range · 11-16-2009, 06:42 AM

Navicular is very difficult to diagnose with x-rays. Almost need to have an MRI.

What does the farrier think?

RedHotTamale17 · 11-16-2009, 06:29 PM

Thanks for your help guys...
Redboy: Background on my gelding...he is a 15.2 hands 15 year old AQHA gelding, he is a 2D barrel horse, has been raced on and off since i bought him in 05. Before them i imiagine he was ran pretty hard, and rodeoed...not properly maintained as he is pigeoned toed and i had aa lot of corrective trimming done when i bought him. I ran him in shoes up until about 2 years ago and ran him a little until i went to college. I wanted to bring him back this year to NBHA, this past spring i decided to shoe him and get him back in shape, almost immediately after reshoeing he came up gimpy...i think coincidence because he ended up getting a nasty infection in his frogs and around his heel, pulled the shoes, trimmed out the infection and treated w/ DMSO/ Metronidazole mix from my vet, His heels were open and draining for a while (it was something similar to thrush but not thrush) So i gave him time off, that healed so i tried more riding, he still was gimpy from time to time, so my vet saide try re shoeing him again to give him time to heel...did that still slightly gimpy. So decided to x-ray, those to lateral films are the ONLY x-rays she took and immediately said NAVICULAR. she said to give him more time off and try navicular shoes, did that...not mcuh of a change so by the mid summer i went for a 2nd opinion, didnt do films at that point b/c he was trying to save me money, to make a long story short he blocked him to his toe on both feet and at that point he was sound other than a little sticky in his hocks...age an wear ...typically for a barrel horse, so he had me try 2 weeks of isoxsuprine and i sent the x-rays HE told me with those 2 films he did not see nav. but needed a series...at that point i was about to graduate college ,had just gotten engaged and couldnt afford it....so i pulled the shoes turned him out and ran one of my mothers all year, i have ridden him on and off....i took him to a show saturday and he had thebest runs he's ever ran, i gave him a gram of but that AM and ran him that evening...he was AWESOME...his heels and frogs are still semi soft so im not convinced its not just taken this long for him to toughen up but i dont know enough about navicular so wanted others opinions.

Range: my farrier really doesnt know, we've tried just about everything ith shoesing and trimming and he still comes up slightly limpy at times...somedays you can tell somedays not...i dont think he is in pain with as hard as he runs and wants to run but at the same time i dont want to pushy him if he shouldnt be pushed...his symptoms are really just a slight limp...sometimes so slight you can barely tell (keep in mind he is pigeoned toed, 15 turning 16 and had that hoof infection last spring....i just dont know!!!

RedHotTamale17 · 11-16-2009, 06:30 PM

Thanks for your help guys...
Redboy: Background on my gelding...he is a 15.2 hands 15 year old AQHA gelding, he is a 2D barrel horse, has been raced on and off since i bought him in 05. Before them i imiagine he was ran pretty hard, and rodeoed...not properly maintained as he is pigeoned toed and i had aa lot of corrective trimming done when i bought him. I ran him in shoes up until about 2 years ago and ran him a little until i went to college. I wanted to bring him back this year to NBHA, this past spring i decided to shoe him and get him back in shape, almost immediately after reshoeing he came up gimpy...i think coincidence because he ended up getting a nasty infection in his frogs and around his heel, pulled the shoes, trimmed out the infection and treated w/ DMSO/ Metronidazole mix from my vet, His heels were open and draining for a while (it was something similar to thrush but not thrush) So i gave him time off, that healed so i tried more riding, he still was gimpy from time to time, so my vet saide try re shoeing him again to give him time to heel...did that still slightly gimpy. So decided to x-ray, those to lateral films are the ONLY x-rays she took and immediately said NAVICULAR. she said to give him more time off and try navicular shoes, did that...not mcuh of a change so by the mid summer i went for a 2nd opinion, didnt do films at that point b/c he was trying to save me money, to make a long story short he blocked him to his toe on both feet and at that point he was sound other than a little sticky in his hocks...age an wear ...typically for a barrel horse, so he had me try 2 weeks of isoxsuprine and i sent the x-rays HE told me with those 2 films he did not see nav. but needed a series...at that point i was about to graduate college ,had just gotten engaged and couldnt afford it....so i pulled the shoes turned him out and ran one of my mothers all year, i have ridden him on and off....i took him to a show saturday and he had thebest runs he's ever ran, i gave him a gram of but that AM and ran him that evening...he was AWESOME...his heels and frogs are still semi soft so im not convinced its not just taken this long for him to toughen up but i dont know enough about navicular so wanted others opinions.

Range: my farrier really doesnt know, we've tried just about everything ith shoesing and trimming and he still comes up slightly limpy at times...somedays you can tell somedays not...i dont think he is in pain with as hard as he runs and wants to run but at the same time i dont want to pushy him if he shouldnt be pushed...his symptoms are really just a slight limp...sometimes so slight you can barely tell (keep in mind he is pigeoned toed, 15 turning 16 and had that hoof infection last spring....i just dont know!!!

bntnail · 11-16-2009, 10:08 PM

Couldn't see rads, but by your last post, there's no way to tell if nav by only lateral views. How is horse shod? Bar shoes? If not, you may want to try. They are a standard treatment for nav, however they are beneficial for many other types of heel/caudle foot pain. Sounds like this may help if treating a persistent infection in the caudle aspect of the foot. Pics of foot may help as well.

bntnail,farrier

RedHotTamale17 · 11-17-2009, 04:53 AM

he is not wearing shoes right now i am planning to have him shod soon, i pulled the nav shoes because he had pulled one anyway and didnt have him re- shod...im trying to get my farrier out here soon to do it...i wish i could figure out how to load the film pics into the message...i know theres a way i just dont know how to do it!

redboy · 11-17-2009, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHotTamale17

Thanks for your help guys...
Redboy: Background on my gelding...he is a 15.2 hands 15 year old AQHA gelding, he is a 2D barrel horse, has been raced on and off since i bought him in 05.
Before them i imiagine he was ran pretty hard, and rodeoed...not properly maintained as he is pigeoned toed and i had aa lot of corrective trimming done when i bought him.
I ran him in shoes up until about 2 years ago and ran him a little until i went to college. I wanted to bring him back this year to NBHA, this past spring i decided to shoe him and get him back in shape, almost immediately after reshoeing he came up gimpy...i think coincidence because he ended up getting a nasty infection in his frogs and around his heel, pulled the shoes, trimmed out the infection and treated w/ DMSO/ Metronidazole mix from my vet, His heels were open and draining for a while (it was something similar to thrush but not thrush)
So i gave him time off, that healed so i tried more riding, he still was gimpy from time to time, so my vet saide try re shoeing him again to give him time to heel...did that still slightly gimpy.
So decided to x-ray, those to lateral films are the ONLY x-rays she took and immediately said NAVICULAR. she said to give him more time off and try navicular shoes, did that...not mcuh of a change so by the mid summer i went for a 2nd opinion, didnt do films at that point b/c he was trying to save me money, to make a long story short he blocked him to his toe on both feet and at that point he was sound other than a little sticky in his hocks...age an wear ...typically for a barrel horse, so he had me try 2 weeks of isoxsuprine and i sent the x-rays HE told me with those 2 films he did not see nav. but needed a series...at that point i was about to graduate college ,had just gotten engaged and couldnt afford it....so i pulled the shoes turned him out and ran one of my mothers all year, i have ridden him on and off....i took him to a show saturday and he had thebest runs he's ever ran, i gave him a gram of but that AM and ran him that evening...he was AWESOME...his heels and frogs are still semi soft so im not convinced its not just taken this long for him to toughen up but i dont know enough about navicular so wanted others opinions.

Range: my farrier really doesnt know, we've tried just about everything ith shoesing and trimming and he still comes up slightly limpy at times...somedays you can tell somedays not...i dont think he is in pain with as hard as he runs and wants to run but at the same time i dont want to pushy him if he shouldnt be pushed...his symptoms are really just a slight limp...sometimes so slight you can barely tell (keep in mind he is pigeoned toed, 15 turning 16 and had that hoof infection last spring....i just dont know!!!

The reason I asked about symptoms is often
'toe pointing' is a symptom with a horse with navicular issues, as is 'on and off again' subtle lameness (over a period of time), and stumbling.
I can't personally tell much from the xrays, as my 'eye' is not that educated to the differences, or changes in the bone's appearance.
I do know that generally the navicular bone begins to have a 'pitted' or swiss cheese appearance.

It could also be a problem in the joint.

I also know that barrel horses are good candidates for navicular disease, due to the constant turning on the same front foot around a barrel pattern.
Is that the foot your vet believes is the problem, also?
Given his age, and his barrel 'career', it could easily be navicular, but I think I would want a 2nd opinion, as well, that my farrier's opinion concurred with vet's opinion.
I also think

HT member 'Sirita' currently has a horse she is treating for navicular problems,.., maybe you could PM her and ask her about your horse?

Wish I could help more,...,
Good luck and keep us posted on his progress.

Sirita_88 · 11-17-2009, 06:35 AM

You cannot diagnose Navicular from that set of xrays, I do see some possible cysts in the navicular bone on the second xray, but those are NOT the right xrays.

I think you can tell from xrays if a horse has navicular, it just doesn't tell you why without an MRI.

Here are the two angles you need to diagnose navicular, along with areas I have circled that show the "changes" to the navicular bone:

this is what it should look like (solid)

You need new radiographs.

Your horses angles could indicate navicular, but they are not so severe. Do you have pics of his hoof from the outside and his heels? Contracted heels are a fairly good indication that the horse is suseptable to navicular, as well as a long toe.

Sirita_88 · 11-17-2009, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHotTamale17

Thanks for your help guys...
Redboy: Background on my gelding...he is a 15.2 hands 15 year old AQHA gelding, he is a 2D barrel horse, has been raced on and off since i bought him in 05. Before them i imiagine he was ran pretty hard, and rodeoed...not properly maintained as he is pigeoned toed and i had aa lot of corrective trimming done when i bought him. I ran him in shoes up until about 2 years ago and ran him a little until i went to college. I wanted to bring him back this year to NBHA, this past spring i decided to shoe him and get him back in shape, almost immediately after reshoeing he came up gimpy...i think coincidence because he ended up getting a nasty infection in his frogs and around his heel, pulled the shoes, trimmed out the infection and treated w/ DMSO/ Metronidazole mix from my vet, His heels were open and draining for a while (it was something similar to thrush but not thrush) So i gave him time off, that healed so i tried more riding, he still was gimpy from time to time, so my vet saide try re shoeing him again to give him time to heel...did that still slightly gimpy. So decided to x-ray, those to lateral films are the ONLY x-rays she took and immediately said NAVICULAR. she said to give him more time off and try navicular shoes, did that...not mcuh of a change so by the mid summer i went for a 2nd opinion, didnt do films at that point b/c he was trying to save me money, to make a long story short he blocked him to his toe on both feet and at that point he was sound other than a little sticky in his hocks...age an wear ...typically for a barrel horse, so he had me try 2 weeks of isoxsuprine and i sent the x-rays HE told me with those 2 films he did not see nav. but needed a series...at that point i was about to graduate college ,had just gotten engaged and couldnt afford it....so i pulled the shoes turned him out and ran one of my mothers all year, i have ridden him on and off....i took him to a show saturday and he had thebest runs he's ever ran, i gave him a gram of but that AM and ran him that evening...he was AWESOME...his heels and frogs are still semi soft so im not convinced its not just taken this long for him to toughen up but i dont know enough about navicular so wanted others opinions.

Range: my farrier really doesnt know, we've tried just about everything ith shoesing and trimming and he still comes up slightly limpy at times...somedays you can tell somedays not...i dont think he is in pain with as hard as he runs and wants to run but at the same time i dont want to pushy him if he shouldnt be pushed...his symptoms are really just a slight limp...sometimes so slight you can barely tell (keep in mind he is pigeoned toed, 15 turning 16 and had that hoof infection last spring....i just dont know!!!

Reading this post leads me to belive that your horse does have a lot of signs of navicular.

Navicular horses will be on and off lame, They should be pretty sound after the first block, which your horse was.

What type of navicular shoes did you try? Depending on what is really causing the navicular will determine what type of shoeing will work best. It really depends on the horse.

Bute can be really beneficial for some horses with navicular, but not always. But I see yours responded well.

Isoxsuprine is NOT proven to do a single thing for a navicular horse. I had my horses on 30 pills a day for a longgg time. When my second horse was diagnosed I went to a specialist and he said there was no real point to giving it. I haven't noticed a difference in either of my horses since I took them off of it, and it has been months.

Sirita_88 · 11-17-2009, 06:50 AM

Oh, and for comparison, these are pics of my other horse right before he was diagnosed with navicular. These are not navicular radiographs, they were taken for angles (later we got a new set with navicular xrays). But as you can see, you can't really tell much.... (BTW, his angles were wayy off, his toe is too long)

NorthernHorseGirl · 11-17-2009, 06:25 PM

You need x-rays taken from the bottom of his feet to really see anything. Navicular horses do the 'walking on eggshells' walk and are generally short-strided.
I hate to say it but it does sound like navicular to me from what you've said and the x-rays seem to show a ragged edged bone but I could be wrong and I sincerely hope I am.
I've mentioned on here before that we had to have a lovely paint filly put down before her 4th birthday due to severe navicular. I can still see the x-rays in my head. Devastating. We'd only just started her but the vet figured a combination of small hooves and slight pastern deformity that caused her front feet to turn in just a bit was the cause.
There are good options for keeping them comfortable these days, but it's not something that's reversable or curable.
Good luck.

RedHotTamale17 · 11-17-2009, 07:19 PM

sirita, Thank you so much for taking the time to help me and explain a few more things and loading your pics, it makes me question my vet's credibility when she took these 2 lateral views and jumped on that ban wagon...had me re shoeing him every 3 weeks w/ navicuakr shoes, its money i could have saved and just had a series done right noff the bat. Im going to look into getting more films done with the lameness specialist...thats really my only option, im going to try the bar shoes recommended to me as well...anything's worth a try at this point....after the lameness specialist did the full block and saw the films he TOLD me that if he had nav. it was less than 30% of his problem...but to fully diagnose the problem i WOULD need a series...that was back in may, i just havent had the funds to do the films yet but im going to see what i can come up with. He told me he would also recommend injecting his hocks so im going to look at those options as well. He is a great horse and REALLY wants to run so if i can do that for him with out hurting him i want to get to that point, if its going to harm him i will not continue. Thanks so much again!

RedHotTamale17 · 11-18-2009, 05:56 PM

Finally figured out how to do this...these are the lateral shots that were the "diagnosis of navicular" ...my next pics will be photos of his legs, and hoofs

RedHotTamale17 · 11-18-2009, 06:24 PM

Here are tops and bottoms of his hooves, he is 4 or so weeks out from his last trim. The indention in his right hoof was from last srping when i was bandaging his foot for the infection to hold the medicine in...fiance tried to help and wrapped too tight so he does have that pressure mark so that is what that line is ...the bottom of the right hoof looks bruised, i think thats what that dark area is but im not really sure... any ideas?

RedHotTamale17 · 11-18-2009, 06:30 PM

This is my boy, you can see that he is pigeon toed and not exactlly the best confirmation that a barrel horse should has but he does still run 2D times, he is consistant and willing and LOVES to run...he is a good boy but not built to his advantage

this was him this past weekend when he ran those awesome times...he was not gimpy, but now i guess from the stress he is sore

bntnail · 11-18-2009, 07:36 PM

Amanda,
I went back and re-read your post(problems,problems,more problems) and apparently this horse had bar shoes and wedges on before. From the looks of the rads he needs them. He has a flat or "zero" plane to his coffin bones. The angles should be brought up. Bars will provide "flotation" to the caudle/rear of the foot as well as support and lessen med/lat shearing. He also has low,under run heels. They need to be brought back farther in order to correct. However this will lower the angles further, necessitating the need for wedges even more. Coffin joint is way out of alighnment, possible cause of soreness. Low angles and lack of heel support is another cause and if nav is not currently present, will become so down the road. Low angles are probably the reason he became sore after you last ran him,sore tendons.

Also was wondering how old the rads are. I see he's wearing shoes at the time they were taken,however, the pics of his feet show him to be barefoot w/ no sign of nail hole. Clear indication the shoes have been off for a while.

Get a good farrier and trust his/her judgment. Good luck.

bntnail,farrier

RedHotTamale17 · 11-18-2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bntnail

Amanda,
I went back and re-read your post(problems,problems,more problems) and apparently this horse had bar shoes and wedges on before. From the looks of the rads he needs them. He has a flat or "zero" plane to his coffin bones. The angles should be brought up. Bars will provide "flotation" to the caudle/rear of the foot as well as support and lessen med/lat shearing. He also has low,under run heels. They need to be brought back farther in order to correct. However this will lower the angles further, necessitating the need for wedges even more. Coffin joint is way out of alighnment, possible cause of soreness. Low angles and lack of heel support is another cause and if nav is not currently present, will become so down the road. Low angles are probably the reason he became sore after you last ran him,sore tendons.

Also was wondering how old the rads are. I see he's wearing shoes at the time they were taken,however, the pics of his feet show him to be barefoot w/ no sign of nail hole. Clear indication the shoes have been off for a while.

Get a good farrier and trust his/her judgment. Good luck.

bntnail,farrier

The rads are about 8 mos old...i then put navicular shoes on which he kept throwing even with bell boots so when he last threw them i left them off and basically gave him time off....im going to get him re- shod asap. thanks so much for taking the time to look...i will print your reply off and let my farrier read so that we can come up with a plan for his new shoes...if he cant suit my needs i WILL find someone who will!
Thanks!!!

11-15-2009, 06:57 PM
RedHotTamale17 Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 70	navicular or not...please see films...NEW PICS and POSTS!!! LOOK! Pics are not good but is anyone familiar with what navicular looks like on digital films...my horse was diagnosed with navicular last spring by one vet ...got a 2nd opinion using the same films and the 2nd vet doesnt see navicular on these films. The films are on a link to my facebook...PLEASE take a look if you are familiar with it. The 2nd vet is a lameness specialist...keep in mind this same horse had a hoof infection in his heels during this same time causing him to be ouchy it was a nasty infection, his heels are still soft, its take so long for them to toughen up so he still gets ouchy, just looking for other opinions and advice! http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...1&id=506445387 http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...1810929053 87 __________________ Amanda Wolfe- Windy Wood Farms (Lexington SC) http://www.windywoodfarms.bravehost.com "All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl." -Author Unknown Last edited by RedHotTamale17 : 11-20-2009 at 06:21 PM. Reason: editing images

11-15-2009, 09:17 PM
redboy Greenbroke Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland Posts: 3,566	I would want additional info on the horse's current uses, and symptoms. When did the lameness start, what were the symptoms of the lameness, and what do you generally use this horse for? Also, how old or young id this horse? Sorry, I just like as much info as possible when considering what the problem might be. Thanks.

11-15-2009, 09:48 PM
misstishus Yearling Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 563	I guess I'm not sure what to tell you except to go to a different vet. I've worked in a couple national class barns and dealt with a lot of injuries, lameness issues/pre-purchases, etc and I have NEVER seen a vet willing to evaluate a horse for navicular without a full set of x-rays with shoes pulled. I don't know how they could properly evaluate without top/bottom views. I wish you the best of luck in your situation but my advice is to pull shoes and have a full set of xrays taken and evaluate by another vet.

11-15-2009, 11:25 PM
bntnail Halter broke Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: mid-west Posts: 135	Can't see rads. Says to log in.

11-16-2009, 06:42 AM
Range Kid Safe Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Back of Beyond Posts: 7,275	Navicular is very difficult to diagnose with x-rays. Almost need to have an MRI. What does the farrier think? __________________ "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it all... you just might get it all, and then some you don't want." Chris Daughtery www.goatsandsoaps.com for all your Boer goat and bath soap needs.

11-16-2009, 06:29 PM
RedHotTamale17 Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 70	To Redboy and Range Thanks for your help guys... Redboy: Background on my gelding...he is a 15.2 hands 15 year old AQHA gelding, he is a 2D barrel horse, has been raced on and off since i bought him in 05. Before them i imiagine he was ran pretty hard, and rodeoed...not properly maintained as he is pigeoned toed and i had aa lot of corrective trimming done when i bought him. I ran him in shoes up until about 2 years ago and ran him a little until i went to college. I wanted to bring him back this year to NBHA, this past spring i decided to shoe him and get him back in shape, almost immediately after reshoeing he came up gimpy...i think coincidence because he ended up getting a nasty infection in his frogs and around his heel, pulled the shoes, trimmed out the infection and treated w/ DMSO/ Metronidazole mix from my vet, His heels were open and draining for a while (it was something similar to thrush but not thrush) So i gave him time off, that healed so i tried more riding, he still was gimpy from time to time, so my vet saide try re shoeing him again to give him time to heel...did that still slightly gimpy. So decided to x-ray, those to lateral films are the ONLY x-rays she took and immediately said NAVICULAR. she said to give him more time off and try navicular shoes, did that...not mcuh of a change so by the mid summer i went for a 2nd opinion, didnt do films at that point b/c he was trying to save me money, to make a long story short he blocked him to his toe on both feet and at that point he was sound other than a little sticky in his hocks...age an wear ...typically for a barrel horse, so he had me try 2 weeks of isoxsuprine and i sent the x-rays HE told me with those 2 films he did not see nav. but needed a series...at that point i was about to graduate college ,had just gotten engaged and couldnt afford it....so i pulled the shoes turned him out and ran one of my mothers all year, i have ridden him on and off....i took him to a show saturday and he had thebest runs he's ever ran, i gave him a gram of but that AM and ran him that evening...he was AWESOME...his heels and frogs are still semi soft so im not convinced its not just taken this long for him to toughen up but i dont know enough about navicular so wanted others opinions. Range: my farrier really doesnt know, we've tried just about everything ith shoesing and trimming and he still comes up slightly limpy at times...somedays you can tell somedays not...i dont think he is in pain with as hard as he runs and wants to run but at the same time i dont want to pushy him if he shouldnt be pushed...his symptoms are really just a slight limp...sometimes so slight you can barely tell (keep in mind he is pigeoned toed, 15 turning 16 and had that hoof infection last spring....i just dont know!!! __________________ Amanda Wolfe- Windy Wood Farms (Lexington SC) http://www.windywoodfarms.bravehost.com "All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl." -Author Unknown

11-16-2009, 06:30 PM
RedHotTamale17 Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 70	To Redboy and Range Thanks for your help guys... Redboy: Background on my gelding...he is a 15.2 hands 15 year old AQHA gelding, he is a 2D barrel horse, has been raced on and off since i bought him in 05. Before them i imiagine he was ran pretty hard, and rodeoed...not properly maintained as he is pigeoned toed and i had aa lot of corrective trimming done when i bought him. I ran him in shoes up until about 2 years ago and ran him a little until i went to college. I wanted to bring him back this year to NBHA, this past spring i decided to shoe him and get him back in shape, almost immediately after reshoeing he came up gimpy...i think coincidence because he ended up getting a nasty infection in his frogs and around his heel, pulled the shoes, trimmed out the infection and treated w/ DMSO/ Metronidazole mix from my vet, His heels were open and draining for a while (it was something similar to thrush but not thrush) So i gave him time off, that healed so i tried more riding, he still was gimpy from time to time, so my vet saide try re shoeing him again to give him time to heel...did that still slightly gimpy. So decided to x-ray, those to lateral films are the ONLY x-rays she took and immediately said NAVICULAR. she said to give him more time off and try navicular shoes, did that...not mcuh of a change so by the mid summer i went for a 2nd opinion, didnt do films at that point b/c he was trying to save me money, to make a long story short he blocked him to his toe on both feet and at that point he was sound other than a little sticky in his hocks...age an wear ...typically for a barrel horse, so he had me try 2 weeks of isoxsuprine and i sent the x-rays HE told me with those 2 films he did not see nav. but needed a series...at that point i was about to graduate college ,had just gotten engaged and couldnt afford it....so i pulled the shoes turned him out and ran one of my mothers all year, i have ridden him on and off....i took him to a show saturday and he had thebest runs he's ever ran, i gave him a gram of but that AM and ran him that evening...he was AWESOME...his heels and frogs are still semi soft so im not convinced its not just taken this long for him to toughen up but i dont know enough about navicular so wanted others opinions. Range: my farrier really doesnt know, we've tried just about everything ith shoesing and trimming and he still comes up slightly limpy at times...somedays you can tell somedays not...i dont think he is in pain with as hard as he runs and wants to run but at the same time i dont want to pushy him if he shouldnt be pushed...his symptoms are really just a slight limp...sometimes so slight you can barely tell (keep in mind he is pigeoned toed, 15 turning 16 and had that hoof infection last spring....i just dont know!!! __________________ Amanda Wolfe- Windy Wood Farms (Lexington SC) http://www.windywoodfarms.bravehost.com "All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl." -Author Unknown

11-16-2009, 10:08 PM
bntnail Halter broke Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: mid-west Posts: 135	Couldn't see rads, but by your last post, there's no way to tell if nav by only lateral views. How is horse shod? Bar shoes? If not, you may want to try. They are a standard treatment for nav, however they are beneficial for many other types of heel/caudle foot pain. Sounds like this may help if treating a persistent infection in the caudle aspect of the foot. Pics of foot may help as well. bntnail,farrier

11-17-2009, 04:53 AM
RedHotTamale17 Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 70	he is not wearing shoes right now i am planning to have him shod soon, i pulled the nav shoes because he had pulled one anyway and didnt have him re- shod...im trying to get my farrier out here soon to do it...i wish i could figure out how to load the film pics into the message...i know theres a way i just dont know how to do it! __________________ Amanda Wolfe- Windy Wood Farms (Lexington SC) http://www.windywoodfarms.bravehost.com "All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl." -Author Unknown

11-17-2009, 06:35 AM
Sirita_88 Greenbroke Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mt. Juliet, Tennessee Posts: 3,138	Navicular Images You cannot diagnose Navicular from that set of xrays, I do see some possible cysts in the navicular bone on the second xray, but those are NOT the right xrays. I think you can tell from xrays if a horse has navicular, it just doesn't tell you why without an MRI. Here are the two angles you need to diagnose navicular, along with areas I have circled that show the "changes" to the navicular bone: this is what it should look like (solid) You need new radiographs. Your horses angles could indicate navicular, but they are not so severe. Do you have pics of his hoof from the outside and his heels? Contracted heels are a fairly good indication that the horse is suseptable to navicular, as well as a long toe. Last edited by Sirita_88 : 11-17-2009 at 06:47 AM.

11-17-2009, 06:50 AM
Sirita_88 Greenbroke Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mt. Juliet, Tennessee Posts: 3,138	Oh, and for comparison, these are pics of my other horse right before he was diagnosed with navicular. These are not navicular radiographs, they were taken for angles (later we got a new set with navicular xrays). But as you can see, you can't really tell much.... (BTW, his angles were wayy off, his toe is too long)

11-17-2009, 06:25 PM
NorthernHorseGirl Coming two Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,515	You need x-rays taken from the bottom of his feet to really see anything. Navicular horses do the 'walking on eggshells' walk and are generally short-strided. I hate to say it but it does sound like navicular to me from what you've said and the x-rays seem to show a ragged edged bone but I could be wrong and I sincerely hope I am. I've mentioned on here before that we had to have a lovely paint filly put down before her 4th birthday due to severe navicular. I can still see the x-rays in my head. Devastating. We'd only just started her but the vet figured a combination of small hooves and slight pastern deformity that caused her front feet to turn in just a bit was the cause. There are good options for keeping them comfortable these days, but it's not something that's reversable or curable. Good luck. __________________ Some horses come into our lives and quickly go. Others stay awhile and make hoofprints on our hearts and we are never, ever the same. Anonymous Rest in peace Clint, I'll always love you and I'll miss you for the rest of my life. You were and will always be my perfect horse.

11-17-2009, 07:19 PM
RedHotTamale17 Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 70	sirita, Thank you so much for taking the time to help me and explain a few more things and loading your pics, it makes me question my vet's credibility when she took these 2 lateral views and jumped on that ban wagon...had me re shoeing him every 3 weeks w/ navicuakr shoes, its money i could have saved and just had a series done right noff the bat. Im going to look into getting more films done with the lameness specialist...thats really my only option, im going to try the bar shoes recommended to me as well...anything's worth a try at this point....after the lameness specialist did the full block and saw the films he TOLD me that if he had nav. it was less than 30% of his problem...but to fully diagnose the problem i WOULD need a series...that was back in may, i just havent had the funds to do the films yet but im going to see what i can come up with. He told me he would also recommend injecting his hocks so im going to look at those options as well. He is a great horse and REALLY wants to run so if i can do that for him with out hurting him i want to get to that point, if its going to harm him i will not continue. Thanks so much again! __________________ Amanda Wolfe- Windy Wood Farms (Lexington SC) http://www.windywoodfarms.bravehost.com "All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl." -Author Unknown

11-18-2009, 05:56 PM
RedHotTamale17 Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 70	Bozo- lateral shots Finally figured out how to do this...these are the lateral shots that were the "diagnosis of navicular" ...my next pics will be photos of his legs, and hoofs __________________ Amanda Wolfe- Windy Wood Farms (Lexington SC) http://www.windywoodfarms.bravehost.com "All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl." -Author Unknown

11-18-2009, 06:24 PM
RedHotTamale17 Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 70	Bozo (pic heavy) Hooves Here are tops and bottoms of his hooves, he is 4 or so weeks out from his last trim. The indention in his right hoof was from last srping when i was bandaging his foot for the infection to hold the medicine in...fiance tried to help and wrapped too tight so he does have that pressure mark so that is what that line is ...the bottom of the right hoof looks bruised, i think thats what that dark area is but im not really sure... any ideas? __________________ Amanda Wolfe- Windy Wood Farms (Lexington SC) http://www.windywoodfarms.bravehost.com "All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl." -Author Unknown

11-18-2009, 06:30 PM
RedHotTamale17 Halter broke Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 70	Bozo- leg and body shots...pic heavy This is my boy, you can see that he is pigeon toed and not exactlly the best confirmation that a barrel horse should has but he does still run 2D times, he is consistant and willing and LOVES to run...he is a good boy but not built to his advantage this was him this past weekend when he ran those awesome times...he was not gimpy, but now i guess from the stress he is sore __________________ Amanda Wolfe- Windy Wood Farms (Lexington SC) http://www.windywoodfarms.bravehost.com "All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl." -Author Unknown

11-18-2009, 07:36 PM
bntnail Halter broke Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: mid-west Posts: 135	Amanda, I went back and re-read your post(problems,problems,more problems) and apparently this horse had bar shoes and wedges on before. From the looks of the rads he needs them. He has a flat or "zero" plane to his coffin bones. The angles should be brought up. Bars will provide "flotation" to the caudle/rear of the foot as well as support and lessen med/lat shearing. He also has low,under run heels. They need to be brought back farther in order to correct. However this will lower the angles further, necessitating the need for wedges even more. Coffin joint is way out of alighnment, possible cause of soreness. Low angles and lack of heel support is another cause and if nav is not currently present, will become so down the road. Low angles are probably the reason he became sore after you last ran him,sore tendons. Also was wondering how old the rads are. I see he's wearing shoes at the time they were taken,however, the pics of his feet show him to be barefoot w/ no sign of nail hole. Clear indication the shoes have been off for a while. Get a good farrier and trust his/her judgment. Good luck. bntnail,farrier