Question on Founder (feed)

rivherrat · 10-23-2009, 09:40 PM

My last horse foundered and had rotated. My vet had me switch to oats. and bute for a couple of weeks.
My friends small horse has heaves and has foundered. Her vet says that the oats have to much starch. I thought oats were low in starch. I told her that i thought pelleted food like Senior feed was good but it was to high also and that being a pellet wasnt good for heaves. She took her mineral block away also . Said that protein wasnt good for founder. Never heard that. If you have to soak hay for heaves , how do you do it in the winter? also he told her to give bute for a few weeks. I told her no way would i give my horse bute for more than 2 and low dose. It can cause ulcers.
Is there any good grain that is not to high in starches or fat? Would appriciate all the help i can get. thanks

evelynwolfe · 10-24-2009, 01:51 AM

Have you been to your local feed store and spoke to someone who is knowledgeable about feeds? And not neccisarily the manager, when I worked at Tractor Supply Co he knew absolutely nothing about horses and feed. Or you can go to someone who is a custom feed blender and talk to him/her about it. I got very blessed by being right down the road from a custom blender who is very knowledgeable about that sort of stuff.
It sounds like your friend needs a second opionion from a different vet, and not one from the same office.

Sweet Haven Farm · 10-24-2009, 05:25 AM

You could also check online. triple crown nutrition has a table of which types of feed for different horses, low starch and such...I had a pony with heaves, and we watered down hay cubes for her, as hay tended to be too dusty for her. Good luck!

bntnail · 10-24-2009, 12:09 PM

Go to safegrass.org

Check out articles and links.

bntnail,farrier

horsecrazygal · 10-24-2009, 04:43 PM

I wouldn't feed oats. It's to high in starch. Look for feeds with a low % NSC. Soybean hulls,and coastal hay both have a low glycemic index and should be safe to feed.

Here are some excellent articles on feeding laminitic horses:

http://www.ecmagazine.net/Fall2008/F...iticHorses.htm
http://www.cfcfarmhome.net/images/E0...rsenewsmar.pdf

rivherrat · 10-24-2009, 07:35 PM

Sweet Haven, how did you water the hay in the winter?

Sundance_Solo · 10-24-2009, 08:41 PM

I would try not to grain at all. Use a high quality grass hay and a supplement like laminex.

sweetwaterarabians · 10-25-2009, 06:36 PM

I've been dealing with founder this year as well and my vet had me put my two on Nutrena Safe Choice. Actually, I switched all of mine to it because I'm now paranoid. My growing colt is the only one on a high fat diet and gets something else.

You might want to try feeding soaked beet pulp too. Low in sugar and good for horses with founder type issues.

sweetwaterarabians · 10-25-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundance_Solo

I would try not to grain at all. Use a high quality grass hay and a supplement like laminex.

Oh yes, forgot to mention. I'm feeding very, very little. Vet's orders. The foundered mare is actually a little ribby right now but the vet said I need to keep her light during her healing process. They don't need too much weight on those tender feet while they are healing.

Slim Pikkens · 10-25-2009, 06:53 PM

Newer research reveals that oats actually assist with healing ulcers. Omaprazole will reach stomach ulcers but not the hind gut. Apparently this is where oats are a benefit. Perhaps the oats were recommended to help stave off ulcers the bute could cause.

rivherrat · 10-25-2009, 09:31 PM

WOW i thought oats were low in starch and easy to digest.

Range · 10-26-2009, 07:07 AM

No, oats are not good for a foundered horse.

If they are good for ulcers, I guess you have to look at which is worse...ulcers or futher damage from founder.

Oats are second only to corn in high carbohydrates.

pippy · 10-26-2009, 08:48 AM

I've had a couple that would founder over the years- both had other issues going on- one was insulin resistant the other was Cushings....in both cases the food that prevented it from reoccuring was good quality hay, as someone else mentioned...no grain. They were both on bute for for longer then 2 wks and did not develope ulcers, but I suspect this varies from horse to horse- what was the dose of bute the vet recommended? Maybe it is a lower dose so he figures she can give it longer? Ours recommended a higher dose at the onset w/ a much lesser dose in the following weeks.

Smilie · 10-28-2009, 08:23 PM

protein does not cause founder. That was a misconception in the 70s, that high protein levels caused founder in susceptable horses, and also OCD in young growing horses
Not true by recent equine nutrition research
What causes both laminitis in susceptable horses, and OCD in young growing horses is excess energy ( sugar and starches ) Grains are high energy feeds
If you need to add calories to your horse beyond what is available in the forage, then feeding fat instead of NSC is the answer. Many senior feeds have high fat levels for older horses that need the calories but have issues like IR that make high grain diets not safe
Some IR horses need to be dry lotted, esp in the seasons where grass is growing rapidly.Horses that have foundered, if fat, do need to be on a diet. However, they should not be deprived of protein, as proteins are needed to rebuild healthy tissue,, including those in the hoof. They need their NSC levels controlled in all of the feed.
Why would you remove minerals??? That only makes sense if you are using a mineral block held together with mollasses
If anything, horses that have founder issues need to have a high level of the correct minerals suplimented. My two IR horses get a special mineral blend formulated by my Natural hoofcare expert, every day in their beet pulp, even though they have a mineral block available
Chromium and Mag have shown to decrease insulin resistence

rivherrat · 10-28-2009, 08:56 PM

Pippy- The vet had her on 3 grams a day. And now she is down to a half a day. She seems to be doing better. She has heaves also. She had a second vet out and she said she thought she had foundered from all the meds the first vet was giving her. My friend has asma and uses a nebulizer and rigged up a milk jug to work for the horse. She says it helps her horse also !!

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10-23-2009, 09:40 PM
rivherrat Weanling Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Iowa Posts: 255	Question on Founder (feed) My last horse foundered and had rotated. My vet had me switch to oats. and bute for a couple of weeks. My friends small horse has heaves and has foundered. Her vet says that the oats have to much starch. I thought oats were low in starch. I told her that i thought pelleted food like Senior feed was good but it was to high also and that being a pellet wasnt good for heaves. She took her mineral block away also . Said that protein wasnt good for founder. Never heard that. If you have to soak hay for heaves , how do you do it in the winter? also he told her to give bute for a few weeks. I told her no way would i give my horse bute for more than 2 and low dose. It can cause ulcers. Is there any good grain that is not to high in starches or fat? Would appriciate all the help i can get. thanks

10-24-2009, 01:51 AM
evelynwolfe Halter broke Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Southern IN Posts: 183	Have you been to your local feed store and spoke to someone who is knowledgeable about feeds? And not neccisarily the manager, when I worked at Tractor Supply Co he knew absolutely nothing about horses and feed. Or you can go to someone who is a custom feed blender and talk to him/her about it. I got very blessed by being right down the road from a custom blender who is very knowledgeable about that sort of stuff. It sounds like your friend needs a second opionion from a different vet, and not one from the same office. __________________ Sell the cow, buy the sheep, but never be without the horse. ~ Irish Proverb

10-24-2009, 05:25 AM
Sweet Haven Farm Newborn Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hartly, DE Posts: 14	You could also check online. triple crown nutrition has a table of which types of feed for different horses, low starch and such...I had a pony with heaves, and we watered down hay cubes for her, as hay tended to be too dusty for her. Good luck! __________________ Kate

10-24-2009, 12:09 PM
bntnail Halter broke Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 68	Go to safegrass.org Check out articles and links. bntnail,farrier

10-24-2009, 04:43 PM
horsecrazygal Newborn Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: FL Posts: 29	I wouldn't feed oats. It's to high in starch. Look for feeds with a low % NSC. Soybean hulls,and coastal hay both have a low glycemic index and should be safe to feed. Here are some excellent articles on feeding laminitic horses: http://www.ecmagazine.net/Fall2008/F...iticHorses.htm http://www.cfcfarmhome.net/images/E0...rsenewsmar.pdf

10-24-2009, 07:35 PM
rivherrat Weanling Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Iowa Posts: 255	Sweet Haven, how did you water the hay in the winter?

10-24-2009, 08:41 PM
Sundance_Solo Newborn Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: PA Posts: 21	I would try not to grain at all. Use a high quality grass hay and a supplement like laminex.

10-25-2009, 06:36 PM
sweetwaterarabians Yearling Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Waynesboro, TN Posts: 615	I've been dealing with founder this year as well and my vet had me put my two on Nutrena Safe Choice. Actually, I switched all of mine to it because I'm now paranoid. My growing colt is the only one on a high fat diet and gets something else. You might want to try feeding soaked beet pulp too. Low in sugar and good for horses with founder type issues. __________________ Sweetwater Arabians & Web Design

10-25-2009, 06:53 PM
Slim Pikkens Seasoned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,047	Newer research reveals that oats actually assist with healing ulcers. Omaprazole will reach stomach ulcers but not the hind gut. Apparently this is where oats are a benefit. Perhaps the oats were recommended to help stave off ulcers the bute could cause.

10-25-2009, 09:31 PM
rivherrat Weanling Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Iowa Posts: 255	WOW i thought oats were low in starch and easy to digest.

10-26-2009, 07:07 AM
Range Kid Safe Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Back of Beyond Posts: 6,739	No, oats are not good for a foundered horse. If they are good for ulcers, I guess you have to look at which is worse...ulcers or futher damage from founder. Oats are second only to corn in high carbohydrates. __________________ "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it all... you just might get it all, and then some you don't want." Chris Daughtery

10-26-2009, 08:48 AM
pippy Started Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: minnesota Posts: 2,298	I've had a couple that would founder over the years- both had other issues going on- one was insulin resistant the other was Cushings....in both cases the food that prevented it from reoccuring was good quality hay, as someone else mentioned...no grain. They were both on bute for for longer then 2 wks and did not develope ulcers, but I suspect this varies from horse to horse- what was the dose of bute the vet recommended? Maybe it is a lower dose so he figures she can give it longer? Ours recommended a higher dose at the onset w/ a much lesser dose in the following weeks. __________________ "It's never to late to live happily ever after."

10-28-2009, 08:23 PM
Smilie Weanling Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alberta canada Posts: 205	protein does not cause founder. That was a misconception in the 70s, that high protein levels caused founder in susceptable horses, and also OCD in young growing horses Not true by recent equine nutrition research What causes both laminitis in susceptable horses, and OCD in young growing horses is excess energy ( sugar and starches ) Grains are high energy feeds If you need to add calories to your horse beyond what is available in the forage, then feeding fat instead of NSC is the answer. Many senior feeds have high fat levels for older horses that need the calories but have issues like IR that make high grain diets not safe Some IR horses need to be dry lotted, esp in the seasons where grass is growing rapidly.Horses that have foundered, if fat, do need to be on a diet. However, they should not be deprived of protein, as proteins are needed to rebuild healthy tissue,, including those in the hoof. They need their NSC levels controlled in all of the feed. Why would you remove minerals??? That only makes sense if you are using a mineral block held together with mollasses If anything, horses that have founder issues need to have a high level of the correct minerals suplimented. My two IR horses get a special mineral blend formulated by my Natural hoofcare expert, every day in their beet pulp, even though they have a mineral block available Chromium and Mag have shown to decrease insulin resistence __________________ Great horses are born, not made, we only put on the refinement[/IMG]

10-28-2009, 08:56 PM
rivherrat Weanling Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Iowa Posts: 255	Pippy- The vet had her on 3 grams a day. And now she is down to a half a day. She seems to be doing better. She has heaves also. She had a second vet out and she said she thought she had foundered from all the meds the first vet was giving her. My friend has asma and uses a nebulizer and rigged up a milk jug to work for the horse. She says it helps her horse also !!