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Old 03-21-2007, 08:32 PM  
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How to tell if a horse is proud cut?

I have someone interested in trading me a 3 yr old gelding for my filly. The owner says she thinks he is proud cut. Is there any way besides a vet exam to tell if he is or not?

If he is what can be done about it? Do they basically "geld" him again? What kind of cost is involved in something like this?
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Old 03-21-2007, 08:35 PM  
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A blood test for his testoterone level is the only way to tell. Most horses that people think are proud cut aren't....they are just rude! There are rare cases of horses being proud cut or having an underdeveloped 3rd testicle, or being sold as geldings but having undescended testicles, but the only way to know for sure is blood work.
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Old 03-21-2007, 08:45 PM  
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O you will know when your horse is proud cut...I am going through the same thing with my gelding....and to find out from a vet exam that he is in fact 'proud cut' I was told by my vet that there really isnt much you can do with a 'proud cut' gelding ...but im convinced there must be some sort of medication that can or should control testosterone levels.....but who knows. I sure hope if there is something I know about it soon before I trade my mare.

My gelding was mounting my mare...grunting and majorly 'in love' with her ....so signs are very noticeable in a proud cut gelding
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Old 03-21-2007, 08:51 PM  
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I've never had a proud cut gelding, but I think they have to have surgery to get the other testicle if I'm thinking correctly...

It's more costly then a normal gelding, and someone said it's harder because there is already scar tissue there so it takes longer to heal??

I wouldn't mess with a proud cut gelding... Sounds like they are justwanting to trade off thier problems for something else...
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:29 PM  
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IF[big if] he is proudcut-then he can be operated on to remove the retained testicle.
It really is rather uncommon. Every time a gelding acts out or mounts mares-a lot of folks think it is proud cut. Not so.
Vet can run a tetosterone level to see what his levels are and can also ultrasound to see what the situation is.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:37 PM  
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We had an Appy gelding act so stud like that we just had a blood test done, he wasn't just rude and naughty. A few conversations as to who was boss and he got over it.

On the other hand we also had a stallion that had one retained testicle and were told he'd get very agressive , dangorus and unable to breed. Three foals later we had him castrated and to this day he has been more lax than any of the geldings or mares. We did find he can easily jump a 4' fence which is no easy feet considering he isn't even horse size!

The price tag on his castration with hospital stay and meds........$1,200+

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Old 03-21-2007, 09:42 PM  
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There has been a lot of research that seems to show a link to passing the monorchid trait along-usually in the second generation.
Prevailing opinion seems to be not to breed them-for safety's sake.
IF there is a retained testicle there are very pressing reasons to get it out. Cancer rates are high in these animals
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:25 PM  
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Chances of a horse being "proud cut" these days with the availability of drugs for restraint and surgical techniques that most vets have aren't very high. It's more likely that the horse is a crypt or is just a jerk and they don't want to deal with or can't deal with his behavior. Most of the time the retained testicle is on the left side so if you take on this horse have that side checked first.

If you're seriously considering the trade do the blood test before you agree to anything. Depending on your location a crypt surgery can cost anywhere from $400-1500, and there's no guarantee that the testicle can be successfully located and removed depending on the skill level of the vet, the amount of scar tissue and the location of the testicle. Ours run about $400-700 depending on how long the horse is hospitalized and how long the surgery takes.

I bought a gelding last summer that ended up being a crypt. The sellers claimed they'd had their vet go in for a crypt surgery and she couldn't find anything. I took him in to work and we did surgery--it took about 10 minutes after he cut into him to locate the testicle on the left side--not a hard find as far as crypts go. Turns out there was no scar tissue on his left side at all so they hadn't even tried to remove the other testicle. We had the surgery done in August and he was very well behaved by October or so but I know of quite a few that continue on with their studdy behaviors.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:36 PM  
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The only conclusive way to determing if he a gelding, proud cut or a cryptorchid is a blood test for testosterone.

Cryptorchids often have the highest testosterone levels, possibly because the retained testicle is overheated, or in many cases, tumorous. These horses will be "superstudly" - exceedingly aggresive with very high libidos. Very often in the case of horses with testicular cancer this behavior will start suddenly later in the horse's life.

Even a properly and completely gelded horse will still have some testosterone - the testicles are not the only testosterone producing organs (thought they produce most of an intacted horse's testosterone). The prostate and adrenal glands also produce tiny amounts of it, as will any portion of the vas diferens that's retained.

I've read that somewhere around half of geldings will retain the desire and capability to mount a mare at least occasionally. I've also read that geldings are more likely to try to breed a mare out of season than intact stallions.

Some geldings act more studly than others - usually its the ones gelded later, or after they've bred a mare, but not always.
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Old 03-22-2007, 05:21 AM  
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In our area many "farriers" and private people still castrate horses for people that only want to pay 30 bucks for the service....my friends colt had a whole testicle left in his belly when she bought him.
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:23 AM  
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ok here's one for you. i have my young boy prob. going on about 5. He is gelded. Not studdy, not aggressive, has never tried to mount a mare. But he does get, i guess "firm" would be the politest way to say it. EVERY time you put a saddle on him. (Not broke yet, but u can get on him) when you pet him (at least that isn't every time).

I have decided next time vet out for shots (June) i am going to show him this interesting re-action and see what he says. I consider it an early warning system, I know he's happy and not likely to try and toss me lol.

Any ideas?
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:41 AM  
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Geldings can sometimes do that - and are not proud cut - just "show-offs"

But I agree with the rest - get a blood test done before the trade, and then you will know what you are looking at.
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:56 AM  
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really? I have had so many people say they have never seen a gelding do that. One trainer even suggested there is a problem, maybe physcial or even physgolical (sp?) lol sure i get the horse that needs therapy.
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:02 AM  
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Nope, it is rare, but we have seen in a few times. of course, we have probably trained or owned more horses them most so bound to happen

They usually don't bother the mares, just a little personal time, if you know what I mean We had them tested just to be sure, but they were geldings
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:06 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToveroMom
There has been a lot of research that seems to show a link to passing the monorchid trait along-usually in the second generation.
Prevailing opinion seems to be not to breed them-for safety's sake.
IF there is a retained testicle there are very pressing reasons to get it out. Cancer rates are high in these animals
I should have added it was never our intent to breed the stallion knowing he could pass the trait on. One foal died at birth it was born to early the other two foals were sold with gelding stipulations and it was disclosed that the stud had been a crypt orchid. He was gelding as quick as we could come up with the money however Iam sure as most know comming up with an extra $1,200-$1,500 is not easy on one income. Since he had not ever shown intrest in the mares or any sort of aggression we chose to wait. Once he started to jump fences we made it high priority and had him gelded.......clearly to late.

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:38 PM  
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My mare is currently in heat and both brad's paint gelding and my new gelding Jake have tried to mount her....

They are seperated now, and they couldn't "actually" get the job done, but I didn't want them jumping on her and take the chance of her being injured either...

Silly boys!
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Old 03-29-2007, 05:12 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamcleaner
ok here's one for you. i have my young boy prob. going on about 5. He is gelded. Not studdy, not aggressive, has never tried to mount a mare. But he does get, i guess "firm" would be the politest way to say it. EVERY time you put a saddle on him. (Not broke yet, but u can get on him) when you pet him (at least that isn't every time).

I have decided next time vet out for shots (June) i am going to show him this interesting re-action and see what he says. I consider it an early warning system, I know he's happy and not likely to try and toss me lol.

Any ideas?
My 22 year old gelding drops everytime I saddle him, and then everytime when he is being unsaddled. He is definitely not stud-y acting. Its just the way some geldings are..there is nothing wrong with them physically or mentally. I actually appreciate it....it makes it easier to clean him
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