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Old 02-22-2010, 08:42 AM  
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Enrich 32... thoughts?

Hey all!

(If you want to get past the fluff, the question is the last sentence at the end of this post )

I've recently made an effort to bite Logan's weight issue where it hurts by doing what I can to get him to his proper weight again. Logan has always been a hard, hard, hard keeper and a picky eater to boot. I've tried everything from beet pulp, to rice brain, corn oil, and grain meant to fatten up a horse (of course he would not eat it; Fibergized)

I recently had a friend suggest Enrich 32 for him... What are your opinions on this grain?

Right now Logan is on Senior Feed (request of vet) at 12lbs a day. Will have free choice hay when things dry up, right now we just have square bales... weather permitting they have round-bales.

I've tried Omegatin in a combination of alfalfa pellets with his grain without much success either. Logan is an easily stressed horse, so I was thinking he could possibly have ulcers, but I also haven't had him scoped nor do I know if it'd hurt to give him Ulcerguard if he doesn't have them?

What are your opinions on Enrich 32? I was wanting to start Logan on it ASAP when I find it, so I felt I could trust the judgment here and ask first.
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Leo - 8 Year Old AQHA Gelding
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:27 AM  
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I was just reading up on it, and it looks to be something you feed as a 'complement' to your feeding 'program' already in place.
I guess I would ask you, what type hay, and grain you are currently feeding now?
As well, I notice it only has 5% Fat,.., I've always been under the impression that higher % of Fat is most beneficial on older, or 'harder keep' horses.
Also, how old is Logan??
When were his teeth last looked at, etc?

Sorry, I just like as much info as possible when I'm learning about something new, or offering a comment or opinion about something.

PS. I've become some what 'turned off' of Purina horse feeds lately,.., just personal preference, but,..., JMO with 'reason'.
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:41 AM  
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Purina's Enrich 32 is, indeed, a vit/min supplement.

I probably would not give a thumbs down on it for normal healthy horses that someone wants to feed a vit/min supplement to, eventhough like redboy I am not a Purina fan either.

However, I just switched my insulin resistant horse to it because it is supposed to be created with obese/metabolic horses in mind.

My I-R horse is only half way thru the bag and he has become slightly "off" in his general well-being.

I have just got my hay and feed analysis back and it turns out the Enrich 32 is higher in iron than the Sprint 25 I was feeding. That explains why my I-R horse is "off" because metabolic horses can't even have iron requirements that a normal horse can have.

If the teeth have been checked and the vet has checked the horse for ulcers, and I am assuming worming is UTD, then I would highly suggest equine rice bran.

I feed Equi-Jewel at the rate of 4 measured ounces twice daily to all four horses. Metabolic horses can have rice bran. http://www.kppusa.com/equi-jewel.html

Rice bran is 22% healthy fat and provides a cool energy.

With all due respect to your vet, 12# of anything sounds to be too much unless the horse is in hard work.

If you decide to try rice bran, it has to be stabilized and calcium fortified for horses.

Beet pulp puts weight on too, but use beet pulp without molasses.

Hope this helps some
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Old 02-22-2010, 10:12 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redboy View Post
I was just reading up on it, and it looks to be something you feed as a 'complement' to your feeding 'program' already in place.

I guess I would ask you, what type hay, and grain you are currently feeding now?
Orchard / Timothy mix, we'll be switching to a higher Orchard mix shortly, the guy we buy from now is great; but his hay is mostly for cattle and the last 10 bales; they'll eat. But aren't the greatest unfortunately.

He's on Purina Equine Senior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redboy View Post
As well, I notice it only has 5% Fat,.., I've always been under the impression that higher % of Fat is most beneficial on older, or 'harder keep' horses.
Also, how old is Logan??
When were his teeth last looked at, etc?
I agree, I haven't had the chance to do extensive research on it, so I was oblvious to the fat content until now.

Logan is 17 this year, his teeth were done I believe last June. So he's due, but even after having his teeth shortly done he doesn't maintain weight easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redboy View Post
Sorry, I just like as much info as possible when I'm learning about something new, or offering a comment or opinion about something.

No reason to apologize, it's beneficial to me if you have all the information you need to give me an accurate answer


Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post
If the teeth have been checked and the vet has checked the horse for ulcers, and I am assuming worming is UTD, then I would highly suggest equine rice bran.
He had them done at the very latest in June, I don't have the records at hand right now while I'm at work; but I do know he'll be coming around to being due, teeth wise. However, he is wormed regularly and UTD on that. I have tried the Rice Bran with him and he hasn't been to crazy about it. Last winter I was packing beet pulp, rice brain, alfalfa pellets, Equine Senior, and that Omegatin and seemed to be doing better than he is this winter.

It isn't until winter that I realize how much muscle he loses, I can't ride regularly on my property. If it's not snow covered, it's sopping wet with mud; so in turn.. he loses his muscle which makes him look worse in the end.

He's built tiny as it (believe it or not his Grand Sire is Impressive)... not sure what happened there

Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post
With all due respect to your vet, 12# of anything sounds to be too much unless the horse is in hard work.
I agree, 12lbs seems excessive for any horse and when it's not working it's even more frustrating. Fortunately we are no longer using that vet, especially after we lost my mare who'd we had for 8 years to a colon twist (it was a freak accident that started it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post
Beet pulp puts weight on too, but use beet pulp without molasses.

Hope this helps some
What I'll probably end up doing is a combination of what's suggested on here. I feel horrible because it's so much effort for very little progress and I feel bad for him. He seems to be content and happy, but still. I did order some Smartpak Weightgain4 this morning to contribute to feeding him.

Here's a picture of him from last week, while his winter coat "fills him out" I can still feel his ribs slightly. They aren't protruding, but you can feel them.

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Logan - 21 Year old Bay Dun AQHA Gelding
Leo - 8 Year Old AQHA Gelding
Sierra - 3 Year Old Miniature Mare
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Old 02-22-2010, 10:19 AM  
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Smile

If you are feeding a Sr. feed... don't care who manufacturers it... there is a minimum amount that is "reccommended", very strongly, so that all of the daily requirements are met for the horses vit. and minerals. That 'magical' number will be differnet based on the size of the horse, not his weight, but height he stands at and the amount of work he is consistantly doing.

As for ulcer medicines... have been doing some reading. I have found that some, not all really don't work effectively unless given 1/2 hour - 1 hour before actual feeding time so the stomach has a chance to be nuetralized of acid? and a chance to coat the stomach has taken place. Now, as I said I'm only reading and don't know how this is actually going to work to pre-treat before feeding.... not even sure it is feasible, but it does make sense when you think about it that the "shielding product" needs to be in place before the introduction of the food into the digestive tract. Many of the ulcer products are administer with feed... so it is being absorbed in the food at the same time it is needed to combat the digestive jiuces... I have more reading to do...
You need to do your own "homework/investigating" and see what might be the best solution for your situation. Of course, this is based on the assumption the horse has been seen by a vet and diagnosed with a possible ulcer. (this also sounds a pretty common ailment to a lot of peoples horses by reading some of the previous posts)

As for Purina products... I do use them and have good results and no problems so far... I feed Sr. and also feed Amplify which is a 30% fat, 14%protein top-dressed on my guys feed ration. It made a difference in packing some weight on him sooner rather than later. It is not a very nice taste I'm told by Purina feed experts that I have spoken to. Rather unpalatable on its own due to the high fat content... they told me this is true of any manu. very high fat foods. To feed it by itself most horses will take a mouthful and walk away... thats not good. Purina also has Ultium which is another 12% protien and 12% fat product they say to top dress for the same reasons used to help promote weight gain or stabilization on hard working horses.

Purina has a wonderful website as does Southern States, Seminole, Buckeye and Nutrena. Tons of helpful information on each one about their specific product. I personally have no allegiance to any one, just I use Purina because their feed dealer is local and has what I need. For the other brands Iwould have to travel 10 - 20 miles. At gas prices today... you know where I'm heading.

Good luck
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Old 02-22-2010, 10:47 AM  
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Are you concerned of to fat or to thin??? I'm not sure which? Ribs to me is to thin!! No topline is no muscle and missing weight, mostly muscle mass is weak.

If you understand that Sr. feed, I don't care which manufacturer, is a complete feed, then understand that his amount he ingests also has his daily hay ration already prepped in it. If you are feeding regular grain, yes ...12 qts would be a heck of a lot. In Sr. feed... to maintain a approx. 1000 lb. horse you need to feed a min. of ... I think the bag states around 16 lbs a day. No less than 6 lbs for any horse on Sr. To put additional weight on, you feed more according to size and what else the animal is consuming.
Any hay you feed is added calories and it is calories you are searching for for weight gain. Dense calorie feeds such as the one I put in the post above are weight enhancers. Each manu. has their own... but I can tell you that the caloric dense numbers of some other manu. don't come close to what I have found in Purina feeds. Translated... you feed less quantity of Purina compared to other brands for the same number of calories ingested. Ultimately this saves you $$ as you feed less grain and achieve the same results... more importantly... a horse is only able to digest a certain amount of grain in its intestional tract before it exits the body. The more calories in a smaller amount of feed to me means better utilization of what is fed along with less chance of grain overlaod. They say this can't happen in Sr. feeds... I would rather not chance it myslef. Also more grain feedings throughout the day and constant hay offered are helpful. You split up his grain feedings, not necessairly giving more quantity, but smaller amounts that he is able to digest better. Horses are grazers, they should eat most of the day, not our usual 2 -3 times as most of us do, due to workng and home committments.

I just realized you are referring to feeding your horse by quarts... take a deep breath, sit down and read below information. I did the same thing as I think many do at first!!!
*****Senior feeds are fed by pound, NOT by quart. You may actually not be feeding him anywhere near the amount you think. You need to weigh his feed, get a pounds feed scoop, or figure out how much in pounds your quart scoop holds then feed him accordingly.************ I apologize, you did write pounds, someone else I thought said quarts... either way, 12 lbs is not much feed in Sr. especially to gain weight. Lose weight, keep going, you will lose it, but never gain it on a hard keeper with not the greatest hay as you alluded to. Try alfalfa cubes (soaked) for extra calories and make sure you give a salt block too and lots of fresh water.

Last edited by horselover4life : 02-22-2010 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:18 AM  
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I'm very concerned at him being thin, he's the only one whose posed issues with weight. My others are fat n' sassy. He isn't rail thin, hips protruding, butt bones sticking out, etc (as in he doesn't have). But he is too thin for my taste and most likely his health than I think he should be. He is built petite, but being able to feel his ribs is enough for me to shift into gear to get him back to his healthy weight.

I haven't had a vet come out and confirm ulcers, I was making an assumption because Logan is a very energetic horse, easily excited, and I used to game on him and I've heard showing/gaming can induce ulcers as well as irregular feeding. In all honesty these kinds of things are new to me. I grew up with horses, but only knew the basics. I'm oblivious to supplements (outside what I've already stated that I've use) that help the horses. I didn't even know they had chiropractors for horses until the last year .

I've thought about stretching his feeding out, part of the problem is my parents have been difficult with feeding them and I am not entitled to leaving work during my lunch hour (not right, huh?). We only have the bare minimum in our pasture which is a run-in shed and I can't even get my Mom to assist me in feeding in the mornings. I work from 7-2:30 so I figure there is some room for me to make multiple, smaller feedings. I thought about doing 3 times daily, but never thought about decreasing the amount (in the past), but now that you mention it that's a better idea than shoving 24lbs+ a grain in him a day which now that I type it, would make absolutely no sense to do. Don't you love when you realize something sounds illogical when you're trying to explain what you're going to do.

One reason we started with the round-bales was because they're grazers, I wanted them to have free choice hay since they don't have access to a grassy pasture.

Those feed scoops are deceptive... I was always told they're pounds, I guess it goes to show how naive I am, glad to hear I'm not the only one whose done it though. He gets 2 full scoops of a 3qt. scoop.

Need I even state how much I hate living where we do at the present time hehe.

Thanks again for the suggestions, I'm definitely looking into it more because I really need to figure what works for him best before we get into his Senior years where it may become a harder battle with weight.

I'll give the alfalfa cubes a shot as well.
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Old 02-22-2010, 02:15 PM  
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Logan,
I switched from 'Purina' Equine Senior,
which I had fed for YEARS, to Triple Crown Senior just this past winter.
Triple Crown Senior is made by Southern States Coop., and I'm MUCH happier with the Triple Crown Feeds.
(It is a 'fixed formula' formulation, Purina is not.
'Fixed' formulation basically means, same exact formulation, using same ingredients each time,
not other ingredients, used as 'fillers' that may, or may not, be consistent.
As well, Triple Crown Senior is 10% fat).

I believe that Purina has JUST reformulated their Equine Senior, and it is now ONLY at 5% (maybe 5.5%) fat content.
I continued to find these past 5 years that Purina just wasn't working to keep the weight on my older gelding.
Triple Crown has made a complete difference in keeping the weight on him (he's a 28 year old gelding, by the way!

IMHO, Triple Crown is a much higher quality feed, therefore I am 'ultimately' stretching my feed dollars further also.
I, as well, feed hay cubes to supplement my hay since my guy deals with dental issues too.

JMO, but based in 'real' experience.
I've been feeding Red for 18 years now.

Here's a picture of Red from this winter,.., I think it speaks 'volumes' for Triple Crown feeds.

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Old 02-22-2010, 02:20 PM  
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When vet comes out have him tested for lyme and thyroid,
i feed my hard keeper arab stallion soaked hay cubes and a 10 % fat, and he has been picking up weight. I also give him two loaves of bread a day , sounds crazy but with little chewing teeth that is what is helping.
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:40 PM  
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I would start with the vet giving a full exam, even though he seems fine...making sure vitals are good, eyes, teeth... all the necessary tadas as I call them. Have blood drawn for a CBC and full chemistry. About $65.00, but it tells all of how the organs and all things inside are working. If there is anything "off or deficient" it will show and you will have a place to start to properly put him on the road to healthyness and vitality. No guessing and no spending money on this that or the other thing because it worked for so and so! A fecal count, will rule out any nasties not seen, and also possibly(you can do this part) find if you have a sand overabundance. If your horses gut is covered in sand or residue, he will be unable to absorb his feed nutrients through his digestive tract. ALL horses injest sand, dirt and debris while eating hay and scrounging on the ground. You may need to treat for that which is easy. Deal with that if you need to ...(grab a fresh handful of manure, preferably top of pile so less chance of touching sand/shavings.. put in a plastic sealable bag that you are now going to put water in till it covers the feces.Hang it someplace if possible, wait and come back and look at it in a hour or so... any sand will sink, otherwise everything floats. If it has alot of sand you now start a sand clear/physillium product...to clear out sand from intestines, very simple and easy to do)
It is not uncommon for horses to develop ulcers. One of the causes of them as I have been told by my vet, doing research and reading papers written by leading experts in the equine field is the inconsistant feeding times we are forced to have. The horse stressing about when he will eat doesn't do him good, hence a set feeding time and regimine to adhere to is so important. The horse must also be able to produce enough saliva to "tone down" the acidity level in their stomach to start proper digestion. That is one of the huge reasons why they need to 'chew', ...it creates saliva and nuetralizes some of that stomach acid.(if you already have an ulcer situation it needs to be treated, fixed/healed then maintained) Multiple small feedings of grain are preferable to 1 or 2(most manu. suggest not more than 5-6 lbs maximum grain per feeding), along with a near constant access to quality hay. Chuck the cheap stuff... if its not decent or good quality you are wasting your time and money trying to get weight on with it in my opinion. A few more dollars per bale/ton/load may make a huge improvement overall in how your horse responds to the better quality hay product.

OK... some things to think over and make some decisions about. The fact that you are concerned is good. It means you are aware and wanting whats best... now you just need to put together the recipe for your horse to succeed and thrive on his personal feeding 'diet'. You have advice from HT that have traveled this path before and are offering some good starting points. You do need to get with your vet and get some concreted answers so you know where to start... also their guidance. They are the experts, not any of us unless there are DVM lurking incognito out here. Feeds are your business and choice. Not every area of the country has every brand or manufacturer. You need to work with what you have access to and is available all the time for both hay and grain.
Not every animal responds the same way to every manufacturers product either. It may be a trial and error time for you for a while, but it will come together and your horse will start to pick up and thrive the way you so want him to.

If I can help you in any way, PM me anytime. If I am unsure of an answer, I am not to proud to admit it... this was a learning experience for me too. Hopefully, if I can keep you from making some of the same mistakes like I did you will attain results faster. I am sure other posters would welcome the chance to help you also.
My 35+ years of horse experience both professionally and as just a backyard horse owner have given me a good grip on reality!

You need to start with your vet though in my opinion to rule out any underlying medical problems. Address any issues uncovered and then proceed on getting your horse the way you want. Good luck.
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:52 PM  
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i have a really hard keeper that is also a picky eater, and the only thing that keeps weight on him is alfalfa hay or cubes. I've tried the whole 9 yards: supplements, vitamins, ulcer check, calfmanna, beet pulp, unlimited medium quality hay, and other weightgain methods. Alfalfa is the only thing that did the job. if you feed alfalfa start of slow but i think the recommended feeding for alfalfa cubes is 5 gallon bucket full of cubes distributed throughout the day. Worked for my boy. =)
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