Back issues, weak hips, shivering

[EquineAlberta]

I have a 9 year old appy/Tb cross gelding. we have had him for close to 7 years now. I bought him in Dec of his two year old year to keep my mare company when we first moved to our farm, thinking he would be a good horse for hubby, but as he matured, his back got longer, particularly in the lumbar, and his hips just never seemed to develope.

i did a little work with him as a 3 year old, but he was hard to balance. At age 4 we built a round pen thinking that may help, but he couldn't handle doing much more than a slow jog in the 55' space. He definately could NOT canter in there even without a rider/tack.

it wasn't until he was 6 that he could canter a corner successfully without dropping a lead. At that point we did have a vet look at him as his hips kept getting sore. The vet said he had slight spavin in his hocks; injections fixed that, and an excercise fixed his hips...but only for a week before we had to redo it.

Fast forward...he has been in our lesson program and part leased out for the past 2.5 years. He has shown hunters/jumpers (up tp 2'6'), and walk/trot dressage. He STILL can hardly canter a turn smaller than 60', and his hips are still weak, with his croup often being sore when you brush him.

last year he developed an issue in the barn; if the kids did the girth up snugly in the barn, he would fall down and lay there until we untied him. we would then get him up, untack him, walk him until he relaxed, resaddle him, lunge him to make sure he was ok, and then he was fine to ride. He has done this 5 times now...anytime anyone does the girth up at ALL tight in the barn. They can tighten it fine in the arena.

Had the vet out for that, and she could not find an issue other than that he was still sore in his croup area. Flexed 100% fine. tried accupuncture, but like the chiro excercises the effects only last 1-2 weeks.

Horse doesn't stop at jumps or act unwilling once you are on him, but he doesn't like to stand when mounted (always using a mounting block).

And now the present:
Lease rider went to get on him and he started to back up hard so I told her to get off. I checked saddle fit, seemed fine, so she lunged him a bit then got on and had a good lesson.

The weather had started to get colder rather suddenly (even the trees and the grass weren't expecting it..they are still green) and Diesel did not seem to be adapting to the cold. Even with a lined rain sheet he was shivering at near freezing temperatures (he has access to a shelter and is the boss of his paddock and he gets 30 lbs of hay a day). So I put a heavy weight winter blanket on him...the same one he wore last year when it was -30 out.

Still shivering a little, but not bad, but his back is now sore all along his spine (not just when you press beside the spine, but also right on it). Had the vet out. Again he flexes fine. Starts our sore/stiff on the lunge, but works out of it. can't hold his canter on the lunge, and it looks like he just can't bring his hips under him.

Obviously he can't be ridden now, so he is getting time off, and I am giving him daily bute to see if that helps. the weather is also warming up for the weekend.

Vet and I aren't sure if he is shivering because he is in pain, or if he is in pain from constantly shivering.

He doesn't deal well with being in a stall.

Vet took blood and should have results back soon. Also suggested a massage therapist so will be getting her out asap.

But...I feel there is something we are missing and I am very worried for this horse and am starting to worry about putting people on him. Worried that maybe he just isn't built for what I am asking him to do, but it too kind not to do it.

Any advice/suggestions/things we can try?

Karen

[Morgan Horse]

Contact Dr. Laura Taylor. You have tried traditional vets now try Laura. She helped us bring back one that was written off by a traditional vet. We couldn't even ride this boy he was so sore. And just last month he went to andersons and got a 1st,2nd, and 4th ;reserve champion in the 1.1m; 1m-1.10m Out of 4 classes. And he was competing against John Anderson and Telfords. She doesn't cost as much as a regular vet for a farm visit. And is drug free. She is also up in edmonton area atleast once a month.. Pm me if you would like her info. Also if you would like I could send you some info as to why the chiro only lasts 1-2 weeks.

[kanoo32]

You know, I had a horse come in 2 years ago, that presented with similar problems as this one....I sent him up for scintigraphy and bone scans, and MRI's....all were inconclusive.......I treated him for EPM, stall rested him, then started llimited turnout, with handwalking inbetween,for 8 months....I then took him to swim for another 60 days, then put him on an equisizer mixed with turnout for another 45 days.....he started to present with the same symptoms again....this time I pulled a few radiographs of his spine, starting cervical.....we found 2 compressed vertebrae that were old and nothing more......Sent him up to Pennsylvania to resume training in Philly.....he ended up at New Bolton.....diagnosed as a Wobbler......he was humanely destroyed.....I hope this is not the case with your horse, but when I started reading your story, the first thought I had was of this horse that I had.....

Your horse without a doubt sounds to me like he has some neurologic presentation.......that is the area I would be looking for sure......

[EquineAlberta]

His blood work came back normal, but i am not sure what all she tested. The one specific test she mentionned was a test that shows if the muscles are repairing themselves properly and they were.

I have a vet recommended massage therapist coming out late next week... that is the earliest she can make it as she is about an hour away. He will have time off and bute until then. Currently we have him on daily bute to see if this reduces his shivers and back pain.

Something I forgot to mention; he appears to have slight stringhalt, but backs up normally.

Morgan Horse, i will keep that info in mind once my vet's ideas have run their course.

Karen

[beth55051]

My old girl has back issues from a trailer accident and carrying foals. I keep her blanketed as heavy as she needs as soon as it starts to get cold. If her back gets at all wet it takes forever for her to get warm and loosen up again. I don't bute her but I do try to keep her on a joint supplement which seems to help. I also don't stall her at all as it only makes her stiffer and get chilled easier from not being able to move around.

It seems to make a huge difference with her if I can keep her back warm and dry.

[Deanna]

Sounds nuerological as well have they done Xrays? These may not be conclusive either back trouble is sometimes hard to diagnose even in humans. We had a patient that had fallen well she could not sit up at all without extreme pain. Xrays and CT revealed nothing then an MRI was done and they found hairline fractures in her sacrum. It sounds like its thoracic in nature he could have a pinched nerve in a spot that when to much pressure is applied he loses control of motor function such as his dropping when the girth is applied to tight. This can make him weak in the hind end and uncordinated as well. This is obviously causing him pain I would look into it further with maybe your local Vet university. Constant impacts from jumping could have caused damage to disks in his back which can bulge and place pressure on the spinal cord these may not show up on Xrays.

[tuffsmom]

I would also say nuerological. With him looking like he has stringhalt have you had him tested for EPSM? He doesn't have to tye up to have that.

[Amrwmblds2]

We had a gelding boarded here that was diagnosed with EPM- sounds eerily similar to this- right down to the falling down when the girth is tightened on occasion.
Checking that would be my next step- it requires testing his spinal fluid

[EquineAlberta]

I do not think we are a region that has EMP...don't you need opossums for that? We do not have those around here, and he is locally born and raised. I admit it is not something I really know much of anything about.

EPSM was one thing my vet did consider, but she felt that the fact he could back up fine, worked out of any lameness/stiffness, and that his blood tests came back normal and did not show damage/toxins in the muscles, meant it was an unlikely diagnosis. i think it is something we will test for if the massage person is unable to find and treat his issue as you are right, he does fit enough of the symptoms to make it seem like a possibility.

Deanna, x-raying a horse's back is not really possible due to all the muscles. If I could, I would! Scintigraphy would be the only way I know of to scan his back, but it would be quite involved and quite expensive. I think the closest clinic to do a scintigraphy is 3 hours away and he would he have to be there for a few days to let the radiation wear off...it would be big committment.
not sure if it is in the budget except as a last resort.

Something I realized today was that his issues are worse when it is cold...but is it the cold, or is it because when it is cold that we ride inside which is a narrower ring than outside?

I am going to take a photo of him tomorrow so you guys can see his build and muscle (or lack thereof).

I appreciate all the imput!

Karen

[horspoor]

EPM can be carried by other animals, not just possums. I've lost two to it. It is one of the worst things you will ever witness a horse go through. If this has been going on for any length of time, and it is EPM you will notice some physical sign, (most likely, not always). You will probably see unilateral muscling. Some ataxia, and other neurological issues. Most vets still use the spinal tap to verify EPM. There is a newer method, but I'm not sure if it is as accurate.

The falling when cinching quickly and snuggly can cause a horse to fall. There is a nerve that runs straight from between the front legs and back down the medial line toward the back. If that nerve is hit, the horse will collapse. Another reason to cinch gradually, and move the horse around. If it is cold, it will probably be worse.

A quick test, to give you an idea if it maybe wobblers or another neurological disorder (a weakness behind) is to stand toward his rear, to the side. Take his tail and pull sideways. If he stumbles, and struggles to hold himself upright, you have problems. If you've possibly surprised him with this, try it again. If there is a true issue, he wont be able to hold himself upright. Try it on both sides. And call your vet.

[EquineAlberta]

horsepor, the vet did that test with the tail, and Diesel was fine.

I do not think we have EMP in this area.

We had the masseuse out today, and she was able to make him 95% better, with just some minor soreness left over his hips. This remarkable improvement seems to support that the issue is skeletal rather than neurological doesn't it?

His main soreness was his pelvis, chest, and tightness in his ribs. She agrees with my theory that cold weather intolerance as well as being conformationally poorly suited to being a lesson horse/jumper is what led to his unfortunate condition.

I have pulled him permanently from the lesson string and will start him back to work slowly and then hopefully find a more suitable use/home for him. He is such a sweet horse.

Karen

[kanoo32]

You know, the more I think about this particular horse, the more I think that his SI could be bothering him....A highly skilled Veterinarian can inject the SI(Sacro Iliac) and it could really change his entire life......if you dig you thumb and forefinger in deep on his rump between his flanks, on the flesshy part in front of where the hunters bump would be you can ellicit a pain response in these horses....After injecting the SI, I come back and have them do an internal blister of the back and glutes.......I bet that would help this horse immensely....

[Morgan Horse]

There is a way of fixing that SI without injections. I have seen it done.

[kanoo32]

If it is the SI, and it has gotten to the point of causingthis horse that many problems and that much pain and discomfort, the injections wil alleviate the inflammation associated with the SI and bring this horse some immediate relief....This is providing that it is the SI, that is purely specualtion on my part.....

[EquineAlberta]

kanoo, I have my vet coming out again this week and will run that by her. I am not sure she will have that type of experience, but I trust her to let me know if it is or isn't something she is comfortable treating if she does think that is the issue.

I am hoping that the massage will help enough that it will at least help us to pinpoint the area that is the worst...or that he will be good to go and I can help retrain him to use his muscles more effectively.

Karen

[GoLightly]

Could we please see a picture?

[kanoo32]

Originally Posted by EquineAlberta

kanoo, I have my vet coming out again this week and will run that by her. I am not sure she will have that type of experience, but I trust her to let me know if it is or isn't something she is comfortable treating if she does think that is the issue.

I am hoping that the massage will help enough that it will at least help us to pinpoint the area that is the worst...or that he will be good to go and I can help retrain him to use his muscles more effectively.

Karen

A lot of vets are not comfortable injecting the SI, and do not have the material to do it....it requires a special needle, it is obviously very long.....but if she is not, she probably can direct you t o someone that can, and since you use a chiro, they usually know a person that can do SI....your chiro can also do targeted SI manipulations that can help, and I have also seen Acupuncture help as well....

Karen, please keep me updated on this, I have given it a lot of thought, and would like to keep informed on your progress, it is an interesting case.

[EquineAlberta]

Kanoo, our vet does Accupuncture (both dry and with injection), but this did not help Diesel last year (effect lasted only a week) and he absolutely hated it. We had a massage therapist out who does some chiropractor, but isn't a true chiro.

here is a current photo of the boy:



His feet look deformed because they are muddy.
Karen

[kanoo32]

Have you tried aquapuncture?? Also have you spoken to your vets about the possibility of an internal blister to his back?? He has some wasting up top there along his spine that is interesting....I wonder what causes him to not develop up there, and his neck is long but his back short from wither to hip.....Interesting horse.....Interesting, all around!!!!

[EquineAlberta]

What is Aquapuncture?

I will mention the idea internal blister to my vet when I call her tomorrow. I wanted to wait a bit after the massage to let her know his status.

He has an odd shaped back...long withers and quite a dip above his hip.

He is also slightly pigeon toed, and set too far under with is hinds. His front legs aren't usually that pulled back, that is how he was standing before the massage...he is more square in front now.

Karen