Retirement Ethics question

[singing tree]

Karen, I always look forward to reading your posts on training, because they are bound to have some worthwhile ideas.

I have been following this thread, and the one that struck me as the most helpful was about trying to place your lesson horses before they need to be retired. I do this with my dogs. It is hard, because I certainly get attached, but once my females are done having puppies, age 6 or usually younger, they are spayed and placed in a home where they are cherished for the rest of their lives. (I don't breed more than once or twice a year, by the way). It has worked out very well. People are always waiting for my older dogs.
I would think that with the wonderful training ethic that you have, people would be anxious for your "still in their prime" animals as well.

Also - have you considered using Haflingers as jumpers? Most of them are very good at it, and with their more substantial bone structure, it would seem that they would remain more sound longer. Just a thought...

As to your current dilemma, I would just start trying to find the special homes that your 2 need as soon as possible. You cannot worry yourself sick over what happens after you sell - or you business will not prosper as you need it to.

I also have a good friend who is a vet. Vet schools have to have experimental horses, some of whom are put down in order for the students to learn things they can learn no other way. Not fun to think about, but reality none the less. Otherwise, no progress can be made medically. If I had your appy, I think I would really consider this option...

Thanks again for all the time you take to address training issues on HT. I appreciate them!

[GoLightly]

"I teach jumping lessons".
Not if you own horses that can't jump that often, for whatever reason. I'm sorry, but this is something foreseeable, and perhaps you can learn from this experience.
Everyone should always be open to learning experiences. EA has admitted her "guilt" as it were. It's not a terrible thing, it's something that needs learning from.
Horses with arthritis can indeed be managed over fences, but to think that a TB is more suited to jumping, because of his arthritis, is an odd thing to me. Quite the opposite is usually true. Dressage may have been a better choice, depending on the issues.
Continuing to use a horse over fences when he's falling down, is worrisome.

I'm just concerned for the horses and the safety of EA's students. Of course, EA will, and has done right by, her horses, to the best of her ability. Does that mean she will "never" learn anything again?
I sure hope not
Most professionals are always eager to learn something else.

Lesson horses need to be mostly functionally sound, or they don't last.
Jumping is a tough sport, and requires an even sounder animal.

I wish all the best to EA. If you don't ask questions, you don't learn.

[horsecrazygal]

Just wanted to say that you should use caution when looking to donate to a vet school.

I went to UF and I did not agree with the way they treated their animals. When they were done with their research projects, they would often put down the horses with very limited/ no efforts to get them rehomed. Even if the horses were young (under 10), sound, and healthy- they just lacked training. The "trainer" in charge of the horses was often abusive, at least one of the farrier's was abusive, and many of the students learned from the teachers to be abusive and rough on the horses. (beating a weanling with the whip to get it out of the trailer, hitting horses repeatedly with the rasp when they won't stand still, slapping the horses in the face etc). Although it is good to know there are other universities that treat their horses better than UF.

All I'm trying to say is there are many good homes out there, but it takes time to sort through them, and just because someone has a good reputation doesn't always mean they will treat their animals well. Regardless, I am certain you will do what you feel is best. Good Luck. Maybe the vet school thing will work out and your horse will have a happy life.

[EquineAlberta]

GOlightly, I am not sure when I said he was more suited to jumping because of his arthritis, he is more suited to jumping in general (because of his build and temperment). What I did say is that our vet did not feel that jumping would make the issue worse (any more than other work) due to its type and location. He does some dressage work, but can't really go beyond a low level. ALL my horses do some dressage work. THe arthritis has progresses slower than our vet forcasted, likely due to the high level of maintenance/care and special shoes and arena footing. It would progress even if he was left in a paddock and never worked...that is the nature of arthritis due to concussive injury.

The appy NEVER fell down with a rider, or in the arena EVER. ONLY when in the barn. The vet never figured out why and it is/was easy to manage; never tighten the girth in the barn. When that rule is followed he never fell down. Anytime his hips became sore he was rested and treated until better. This is the first time his entire back has been sore. A new development we cannot seem to fix. He has NOT been ridden since his back became sore. I would NOT use a horse in lessons that ever fell down with a rider (or reared).

Singing tree; I would love to use Halflingers or similar type, but they aren't exactly popular around here...and I am leary of buying from too far away. Although that triggered the interesting idea of working with a breeder of a certain type of horse to help them market them...another interesting business plan.

Horsecrazygal...stuff like that worries me too.

I think I know what I will be doing wiht my two current horses. What I am trying to do is learn for the future.

Karen

[tuffsmom]

Karen, I know you will make the right decisions for your horses. After being on this board for awhile with you, I also feel that you would never put your lesson students in a dangerous situation.

People thing we are weird but we only use our lesson horses for a couple 3 years. We make our lesson horses. We then hopefully will go to one of the lesson students as their horse. I have one horse that is going to be hard to replace but I also feel that they don't need to be lesson horses all their lives and really need a human of their own.

[lopintoo]

Originally Posted by AlbertaGirl

I just wanted to say that I'm quite offended with the tone this thread has taken... Karen has been on here for a long time, and all of her posts speaks volumes about her love for horses, the care she puts into them, and how much time and effort she puts into thinking outside the box, to help "problem" horses. She has said a few times already that she is learning from her mistakes, and these "mistakes" are ones that I'm sure tons of people have made. Yes, she is a lesson barn, but she's worked hard at trying to provide an reasonably priced place people can learn to ride, and her place is very nice! She's even had rubber crumbles put in the arena to provide better footing for the horses. Just because she does lessons and training does not mean that she always knew everything there was to know about every nuance of how using these two for lessons would be affected by their conformation. I've personally seen way worse than anything mentioned in this thread, and long time "horse people" who didn't think there was anything wrong with it and not willing to make any changes

I have learned a lot from her, both in person and through this forum, and would never hesitate to recommend her services to someone. I took lessons there for a couple months, and rode most of the lesson horses at one point or another, I know for sure I rode horse #1, and I'm pretty sure I recall riding #2 as well. They both seemed very happy, well maintained and comfortable at that time, obviously once that changed a bit, she turned here for advice, which indicates someone who has the best interests of the horses at heart... so make people should back up a step and think about that a little more before being so harsh.

I don't feel this has taken a bad tone at all....this is the realities of being in the horse business. There are times when you can allow yourself to think and act with your heart - that is why most of us got into it to begin with, but other times you have to remember the business side of things and find a mix of the two. Life is not perfect, we do the best we can and then sometimes have to evaluate and weigh that what is best is sometimes not the perfect fairytale ending.

If it is not financially possible for her to keep them well cared for and comfortable and she cannot find suitable homes for them, or these horses become too ill to be pasture sound, then the most humane thing to do would be to put them down. I would hate to think of these horses living sick, miserable lives because nobody wanted to step up and do the respectable/responsible thing - it really has nothing to do with business, dollars, or how much someone loves them - but ultimately the horse's well being and comfort. Having to put a horse down does not mean someone is irresponsible, ill-intentioned, or only thinking about money.....it is having the guts and information to do the right thing if that is what is truly needed.
Only EA can make that decision.

I think this discussion has brought to light alot of good things and thoughts. It may make people re-evaluate what a horse is suitable or not suitable for before buying it, rather than someone buying a horse and then doing something with it just because that's what they want to ride or compete in. It may make some folks study conformation and form-to-function principles also.

[SirenAlecto]

Originally Posted by bubbleslove

Lopintoo has a really sound idea - one of the lesson barns I used to go to got their horses from contacts up in the Yukon. They free leased or bought seasoned, calm, sound trail horses, and used the more advanced students to train them up for jumping etc. Once they were trained enough, they started using them in the lower level lessons - most made fantastic beginner horses, because they were shorter, stouter, and calmer. When they came across one who, after a few years, wasn't holding up or just seemed to not enjoy the lesson horse life, resale was MUCH easier, since they were already proven trail horses as well as having some arena work on them.

My old riding instructor used this same basic idea - she'd buy a horse and make sure it had the basics and then she and the advanced lesson students would work with the horse until it made it's way down the chain to the less experienced riders as it got more miles.

[GoLightly]

"$2000.00 even though he had the start of arthritis in an ankle and is about the oddest built horse you have ever seen. He is a decent lesson horse, although he has his quirks so isn't suitable for beginners...and conformationally isn't suited to dressage, so he is a jumping horse."
That was my gasp? moment.
That's like saying the horse is not suited for riding, to me.
Dressage is training the horse. All horses are suitable for dressage/training.
Unless they functionally cannot do the job you want them to do.


I wish you well with whatever you choose to do, EA!
It's never a pleasant choice.

[EquineAlberta]

TO a certain point you are correct GoLightly; so perhaps I didn't go into enough detains. The reason he isn't suited to beginners is that his trot is really bouncy...hard to stay with. I don't mean rough...I mean needing a parachute to find your way back to the saddle. I like it as I ride warmbloods, but beginners should have an easier gaited horse in my opinion. Temperment wise he is great.

To think any horse is suited to advance through the levels of dressage is not true. Dressage past training puts more strain on the horse's hips and hocks. Any horse can do training level, but by first and beyond they need certain conformational attributes. This horse can go through the moves of leg yeild, shoulder in and so on, (although he gets frustrated if you do to much) but he wouldn't suite true collection due to his sloped illium, slight sickle hockedness and low set neck...the same attributes which are good for jumping. he is also very difficult for a twice a week rider to sit the trot on...another thing a rider needs to be able to do to advance beyond training level...although he is a good horse to test a rider's core muscles with!

When I bought both the horses in question, I did not forsee I would be teaching much dressage at all, as my background is hunter/jumper. If I thought I was going to be 50/50 dressage/jumping I would not have bought this horse, or even gone to look at him. His flaws are more acceptable in a jumping horse than in a dressage horse. I was also not prepared for how much faster students progress with in a more focused learning environment.

Karen

[Drafty]

Originally Posted by EquineAlberta

drafty, she found those horses "good homes", but how does she know that they didn't go elsewhere from there? It scares me to think of where these horses could end up. Particularly in the market we have right now...low on hay, high meat prices....lots of horses for sale and not a lot of buyers. Not that these horses need to go anywhere anytime soon, so things could change, but what won't change is that there are some VERY unscrupulous people around here...who borrow kids to look honest, and then pack the horse to the slaughter houses (big issue with the TB farms last year). Do you have any idea how she networked to find her old horses new homes? What sort of home could a horse that wasn't able to cart around beginners find? Maybe there is a market I just don't know about.

Karen

Karen,

It is the kind of business she runs and the kind of people that she associates with that enables her to "network" and find these old lesson horses good homes. Reread my post, and you will see that I mentioned how she never has to advertise a horse. People come to her, and she knows many people in the industry. She has top-dollar horses and they sell for what they are "worth" regardless of economy. Again, the type of business she runs and the name she has plays an important role. And I know that it is very unpopular, but she is not against putting a horse down. People don't like the idea of putting a "healthy" horse down who has spent its life serving mankind, but if that horse is not able to be used, it's future is uncertain in this economy as you have stated. I myself would rather put the horse down than risk it ending up in the wrong hands. But for me, this isn't a business, and I can afford to retire MY 35+ year old. My friend just switched to a place that charges $50 for an hour group lesson, and they are jumping horses that I would NEVER jump (wonky ankles/hocks in the back). So I really can't judge others but I know what I would and would not do with MY horses.

[FlyinSoLow]

Originally Posted by Drafty

Again, the type of business she runs and the name she has plays an important role.

I like all of Drafty's posts.

The woman whom taught me everything I know, the one who I always looked up to, and apprenticed under for over 5 years said somthing once that will always stick with me.

"If you want to make money, you want a business, not a hobby. In any good business you have employees, and rarely fo they work for you forever, and usually you have to fire some and get better ones, thats a business... thats how to make money"

However, she did it for a hobby, never made a buck and hardly broke even but she helped a lot of horses and people.

Working at lesson barns for a few years you learn fast that the kids get bored with having the same old horses time and time again, and the horses get bored going in circles and being arena ridden again and again....

circle of life and all that jazz