Retirement Ethics question - Page 2

lopintoo · 10-30-2009, 05:39 PM

First off, I don't understand why you would buy a horse knowing it has or is developing arthritis and then proceed to jump him? I don't jump, but I wouldn't buy horse knowing he is going to have arthritis and then expect him to hold up for years doing something that I know is detrimental to health. The other horse has problems but you have jumped him too?
I just don't understand it...

If a horse is hurting you know he's not going to be happy. If you can't take care of him (or don't want to) then find him someone that will be happy to do so as either as a pet or pasture pal. If nobody wants to commit to the expense of the upkeep of them the the kindest thing is to put them down. I have had to do it, and will not hesitate to do so again if needed. (with two in their mid 20's it may not be far off) It's sad, but way better than seeing a painful dwindling shell that used to be a happy powerful horse.

EquineAlberta · 10-30-2009, 10:35 PM

lopin, you do make a good point, and I do feel guilty that my actions may have made the Appy worse. We have had a few vets look at him over and over and NONE have ever said not to jump him...turns out vets don't learn a lot about functional conformation in school. Since then I have discussed his build with a conformation expert and she pointed out many flaws that on their own wouldn't be so bad, but together are an issue.

It is a situation were we owned the horse, and tried to find a role for him in our business rather than sell him. Had he ever been unwilling to jump, we would have stopped jumping him. We NEVER punish our horses for refusing a jump.

The TB's ankle hasn't been made worse by jumping (it is not like we jump him big) but as with most arthritic conditions, it will degrade on its own. His arthritis is due to an injury and not wear and tear. Should we have bought him and retired him? In a perfect world, yes. should we have let him go to the B tracks and bought something else? Maybe, but he has been a good horse for us, and I think we have offered him a slightly better fate.

Still, I am learning from experience, and will be vetting future lesson horses much better...no more "pity" buys. Regardless, they will all wear down and get older, and we will face this decision with even the best chosen horses.

Karen

horsecrazygal · 10-30-2009, 11:51 PM

Where I took lessons at, many of the horses were older (15+ years). When it came for retirement, many times the horses were given to their favorite student when that student became ready to look for a horse of his own. Sometimes that meant giving the horses away for free or selling them really cheap, or giving them up before they were ready for retirement just because the student was ready for a horse at that time. Maybe that doesn't apply in this case, but for future ideas...

WickedNag · 10-31-2009, 10:23 AM

Would horse number one last longer if he was retired now and not in two years. Seems like jumping would shorten his usefulness.

EquineAlberta · 10-31-2009, 10:52 AM

WickedNag, depends what you mean by "last longer". Do you mean would he be pasture sound longer? Likely, just like everyone else's horses would likely "last" longer if we stopped riding, but that is a tough one for a business financially. If we retired him, he would still need special shoeing in the summer and some additional maintenance to stay sound (he has small/hard feet, and needs special shoes with packing to keep them pliable in the summer). He costs about $2000 a year to keep. We have cut back on the height of jumps and the amount of work. He does not need bute or other pain killers to stay in working condition...we will retire him before that happens, which I think will be in a year or two.

HorseCrazygal, most of our students live in the city, so gifting them a horse would mean they would have board bills. Not really much of a gift, and we don't have the room/pasture to offer them board to. If that became an option, we would of course do that.

I have been thinking alot about Lopin's post, and it is true and I do feel guilty. At the same time though, the purchase of sound, well trained, tall and well built horses for jumping lessons would be financially a struggle...we would be looking at paying $5000 or up (even in this bad market). So for 6 horses, that is $30,000.

It made me think of other barns who have jumping lesson horses...most are former show horses, and are in the 15 and over age group...you can't tell me they don't have soundness issues, as at that age, almost all jumping horses will have arthritis. I know some barns have all their lesson horses on bute...so is it financially possible to run an ethical jumping lesson barn without charging a fortune for lessons? Maybe that is a new topic though...

Karen

lopintoo · 10-31-2009, 10:20 PM

EA - this may be a bit off topic....but I just got to thinking....

We went to a catalog consignment sale today, so I guess fresh fuel for thought....

Could you take a quiet, trail broke horse with athletic potential and train it for your lesson program. Now I realize it wouldn't be a been there done that type jumping horse or one with years of show experience....but could you, in the next year make it into the kind of horse you would need to replace the one with arthritis? If so, I know we may be a bit far, but down here in the states that type of horse is going for anywhere from a few hundered to $1,500 ( a few hundred for a sorrel with not so popular bloodlines and more for well known bloodlines or "color"). I know you'd have to add your fuel and time costs to it, but still way cheaper than a finished, ready for jumping lessons horse. If you bought 2 or 3 while you were down here it would cheapen it up that much more. Just a thought, don't know if it would work but alot of good ready to use horses went real cheap today and they weren't trader horses many of them came from individuals. It was the cow horses that topped the sale, not many wanted the well broke trail horses.

EquineAlberta · 11-01-2009, 12:43 AM

Lopin, thanks for the idea, as you are right, some markets are much more hurt by the economy than others, so I should use that to my advantage while I can. Most of the trail/stock type aren't that suitable for what we do (just aren't built for the length of stride), and tend towards being sickle hocked which isn't good for jumping or dressage.... but prices here are low now too for certain other types of horses, and I am looking at some different crosses...arab crosses mostly, that are smaller than ideal for show horses, or the wrong breed, as it occured to me most of my students are short, and if the horse is stocky enough, then they should be able to handle a taller rider. Plus, if they want to show bigger, they can buy or lease...I have to stop trying to provide people with more horse than we can afford.

I am thinking the most sense would be to find horses that can jump now (with training), but that have the personality, gaits, and type to be suitable for beginners when they get older. Buying horses that will never be suitable for beginners makes it harder to phase back their work load. Plus, as long as the horse is over 5 and trained on the basics, I think I have students that may enjoy doing some training.

I keep trying to learn from my mistakes!

Karen

WickedNag · 11-01-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EquineAlberta

WickedNag, depends what you mean by "last longer". Do you mean would he be pasture sound longer? Likely, just like everyone else's horses would likely "last" longer if we stopped riding, but that is a tough one for a business financially. If we retired him, he would still need special shoeing in the summer and some additional maintenance to stay sound (he has small/hard feet, and needs special shoes with packing to keep them pliable in the summer). He costs about $2000 a year to keep. We have cut back on the height of jumps and the amount of work. He does not need bute or other pain killers to stay in working condition...we will retire him before that happens, which I think will be in a year or two.

karen

What I meant was to stop now instead of aggravating the issues. I see that lopintoo already addressed the issue. IMO if you keep working the horse jumping that is only going to cause a faster breakdown. I would not have expected these horses to work in the condition they were in. Jumping is hard on the joints. Think of it in terms of your own self and think if you had the problems of either the TB or the Appy, if you would like to be jumping.

JMO ... seems like they were not up to being lesson horses and they condition is only being worsened by the way they are expected to preform.
I hope you find them good homes though lots don't want to take on the problems of a horse with soundness issues in the market today.

Drafty · 11-01-2009, 08:17 AM

You might not like this answer. My instructor told me once, when talking about several of the boarder's horses that were starting to show their advanced age, that for her, this is a business. When one of her horses is no longer earning it's grain, it has to go. Much loved lesson horses who had worked hard their entire lives carting around dead beginners, included. She was a real business woman and always found a way to sell these horses to good homes -- she has never had to advertise a horse or send one to auction, that is the kind of business she runs and the names he has. But because this is her job, she has to make tough choices like this. She would put a horse to sleep rather than keep it around with poor quality of life and no purpose. I know that is not the popular answer, but this is a woman who was into serious show jumping until that once-in-a-lifetime horse passed away. Then she stopped showing and with her good name started a thriving business boarding horses and giving lessons. I will also say that she has always invested in quality horses for lessons. Pre-existing issues are a big no-no in a business. Do they pull at your heart? Sure! But resist if you really want to make money, otherwise be satisfied with it as a hobby.

WickedNag · 11-01-2009, 08:23 AM

Drafty, a big Kudos for a great post.

bubbleslove · 11-01-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EquineAlberta

Lopin, thanks for the idea, as you are right, some markets are much more hurt by the economy than others, so I should use that to my advantage while I can. Most of the trail/stock type aren't that suitable for what we do (just aren't built for the length of stride), and tend towards being sickle hocked which isn't good for jumping or dressage.... but prices here are low now too for certain other types of horses, and I am looking at some different crosses...arab crosses mostly, that are smaller than ideal for show horses, or the wrong breed, as it occured to me most of my students are short, and if the horse is stocky enough, then they should be able to handle a taller rider. Plus, if they want to show bigger, they can buy or lease...I have to stop trying to provide people with more horse than we can afford.

I am thinking the most sense would be to find horses that can jump now (with training), but that have the personality, gaits, and type to be suitable for beginners when they get older. Buying horses that will never be suitable for beginners makes it harder to phase back their work load. Plus, as long as the horse is over 5 and trained on the basics, I think I have students that may enjoy doing some training.

I keep trying to learn from my mistakes!

Karen

Lopintoo has a really sound idea - one of the lesson barns I used to go to got their horses from contacts up in the Yukon. They free leased or bought seasoned, calm, sound trail horses, and used the more advanced students to train them up for jumping etc. Once they were trained enough, they started using them in the lower level lessons - most made fantastic beginner horses, because they were shorter, stouter, and calmer. Arabs or appendixes are probably closer to what you want confo-wise, and could be used for low level jumping/dressage, or as training projects when they're a little green over jumps. When they came across one who, after a few years, wasn't holding up or just seemed to not enjoy the lesson horse life, resale was MUCH easier, since they were already proven trail horses as well as having some arena work on them.

GoLightly · 11-01-2009, 10:50 AM

Drafty, kudos.

and yes, I was frankly appalled by some of what I've been reading here. Quite worrisome.
I think, in many cases, the instructor listens to their students, instead of teaching them properly, they jump on seriously compromised animals.
You are not contributing to sound teaching practices, by putting your own students in danger.

"and these horses worked 15 or so hours a week, 50 weeks of the year...how did they not earn a respectful end?"

Your horses sound like they are being worked too hard. 65% of my schoolies were of very advanced age, with various, non-life/humanthreatening like the appy cross, issues. They weren't worked hard, ever. I should say, they were worked within their limitations, kept comfortable always. The students worked THEIR bloody areses off. As they should. Yup, the horses did about 15 hours a week. The students did as much as possible, outside of riding time. Reading, watching, cleaning, grooming. If your students truly love horses, that's what you teach them to do. If they aren't that interested, it's no loss to you, in the long run. The horses benefit.
Old horses can go on for years and years, treated well. My cousin had an appy cross lived to be 41 years old, I believe. Lesson horse. He finally coliced, and was euthed. Won ribbons right up to the end.
The best kind of animal, or at least, they should be.

Why on earth can't people say no to "Can I jump?" My old boys jumped, but they jumped once, twice a week, if the old guys looked like they were up for it. Only with the advanced students. Keep the students that don't deserve to advance where they belong.
I'm sorry if I sound a little vehement.
Sore spot for me.

again, Drafty, thank you.

I read something wonderful learned by JimWofford at the US Cavalry School at Fort Riley, Kansas. Thanks to Practical Horseman magazine.
"Walk for muscle, trot for balance, canter for wind, or endurance".
This is true of riders, too.
Best of luck!

Dream Ponies · 11-01-2009, 02:39 PM

As much of a business it may be, if you take on the responsibility of a living breathing horse, he is your responsibility no matter what. And if you have earned a great living from that horse you have even greater responsibilities to care for them. At the dressage barn my daughter rides at the owners would never put down a horse because they can't be used anymore. I know this because their oldest lesson horse had a very bad time last year. They fought tooth and nail for this mare and she now is happily enjoying retirement. Business may be business, but I don't ever want my children to think any living thing can be tossed away because old age or lack of use. That is a lesson barn of the wrong kind.
And Karen, I have always had the greatest respect for you and don't doubt you will find the right solution for each horse.

Rafflesgirl · 11-01-2009, 03:08 PM

Wow this is really worrisome for me also. I do understand that this is your business I truly do. But I am also of the mindset that when we adopt an animal whether for pleasure or business we have a very serious committment to them. Not only to care for them while they are useful but to then try and find the best home possible when they are not useful.

Now if after much searching that wonderful retirement home is not found then I also support humane euthanasia but the ages of these horses concern me. If they were pushing 20 or older then I would be more in support of euthanasia, but at younger ages, say under 10 or early teens I would definitely try the rehoming.

There are actually people out there willing to take on a retired animal and give it the best possible home ever. I'm one of them. I'm fortunate that financially I can do that. We have a retired 25 year old shetland pony who I keep and take excellent care of because we used him for the kids to learn on and we love him. And he could probably be used by someone's child, but he might not get the care he needs so I keep him.

I have also adopted a 24 year old retired stud, had him gelded and he lived out his life happily with my mare and her filly. This was 4 1/2 more years of love and attention. For me it's not just about being able to use them or ride them or whatever, it's the joy of seeing them happy out in the field doing nothing at all. It's the happiness I get brushing them, washing them, pampering them. And I'd do that again if I could but I have the pony now and another mare who is only lightly used and my daughter has a horse that she shows so I'm at my limit ha ha.

So you sound like a really kind, responsible person, I just wanted to say that people like me do exist! Good luck with all your horses and horse business!

EquineAlberta · 11-01-2009, 03:20 PM

Golightly, the part you quoted was at a barn I used to learn at. My own horses go 4-6 rides per week, with 1 or 2 of those typically being lease rides (non-jumping, lighter work). Horses do not jump more than 3 times per week.

I teach jumping lessons, so students expect to jump. That doesn't mean we always jump...if something happens and I have to use an older horse in a jumping lesson, we will do dressage instead. We also jump small for the most part, and only go to 2'6" on occasion. I do not feel my horses are overworked by any means, but that they are worked enough to maintain their fitness to allow them to do their job.

Dream Ponies, i agree with you, that these horses are my responsibilty, which is why I am not selling them as they now, or will soon, require maintenance I do not think I can trust someone else to maintain. The truth is that the appy is currently not what I consider pasture sound, and I am not ok with leaving him to live out his days in pain even though I accept it is likely my fault he is in pain. I just don't know if it is within our means to figure out the base of his issue.

Why does it make people feel better to watch a horse grow old and suffer? I see the other side though...that people shouldn't feel ok using up a horse and then dumping it...that is the issue I grapple with. I am ok with paying a certain amount to get him pasture sound, but then what? He is only 9. Do we pay $150.00 a month plus vet care to retire him? We have limited space which is another consideration. Max 30 horses. So we have one horse who is semi retired (I use him for ponying) and pasture sound already, I don't think our business can have as many retired horses as usuable horses.

drafty, she found those horses "good homes", but how does she know that they didn't go elsewhere from there? It scares me to think of where these horses could end up. Particularly in the market we have right now...low on hay, high meat prices....lots of horses for sale and not a lot of buyers. Not that these horses need to go anywhere anytime soon, so things could change, but what won't change is that there are some VERY unscrupulous people around here...who borrow kids to look honest, and then pack the horse to the slaughter houses (big issue with the TB farms last year). Do you have any idea how she networked to find her old horses new homes? What sort of home could a horse that wasn't able to cart around beginners find? Maybe there is a market I just don't know about.

Karen

lbequ4002 · 11-01-2009, 03:41 PM

Not sure if someone has already said this or not but you could always donate to a vet school. I used to volunteer at the vet school at my university and that particular vet school maintained the horses beautifully. Some were used in their various programs but none were abused and all were maintained. Many times if the horses were sound they were used by the university's equestrian team and still maintained by the vet school. You won't be able to check up on the horse once it's donated though. The owner is never permitted to come back into contact with the horse. Sometimes, the horses are sold at auction but it was typically foals and young horses from the universities breeding program. I'm not sure they every sell the donated horses.

One trainer who I greatly admire starts young horses nice horses and puts them in her lesson program. She uses her more confident and better riders to put mileage on the horses and then sells them after a year or two in the lesson program. So basically they are sold when their value is highest and her students are putting the show miles on them so she does better businesswise and always has fresh horses. she also have several 30+ year olds for the beginners but she's got a knack for finding horses with good dispositions and sometimes they are leased or psuedo leased (only one or 2 different people ride them). She doesn't overwork the horses and doesn't seem to get into situations where horses get bored and out of tune from being a "lesson" horse.

EquineAlberta · 11-01-2009, 04:06 PM

lbequ, What would the horses do at a vet school? That is an interesting idea for the appy...I will discuss it with my vet and my student who just graduated from a localish vet school to see what she thought about how the horses were cared for at it. If there was a massage school he would be ideal for students to work on!

Your idea about using the program to add value to horses and sell in their prime is an interesting one as well. We do have to wait until a horse is at least 5 for students to use them (or void our insurance!)....but maybe we could get the lease students "in on it" so they could qualify for a commission and could help with marketing which would also add an educational aspect to the process. By doing that we would then just have a few core "lifers" that we would have to be prepared to retire, rather than all of them.

If I look at it from that angle, I would need to relook at the types of horses I am searching for though, to look at resale value rather than just longevity. Interesting. Thanks!

Karen

AlbertaGirl · 11-01-2009, 04:09 PM

I just wanted to say that I'm quite offended with the tone this thread has taken... Karen has been on here for a long time, and all of her posts speaks volumes about her love for horses, the care she puts into them, and how much time and effort she puts into thinking outside the box, to help "problem" horses. She has said a few times already that she is learning from her mistakes, and these "mistakes" are ones that I'm sure tons of people have made. Yes, she is a lesson barn, but she's worked hard at trying to provide an reasonably priced place people can learn to ride, and her place is very nice! She's even had rubber crumbles put in the arena to provide better footing for the horses. Just because she does lessons and training does not mean that she always knew everything there was to know about every nuance of how using these two for lessons would be affected by their conformation. I've personally seen way worse than anything mentioned in this thread, and long time "horse people" who didn't think there was anything wrong with it and not willing to make any changes

I have learned a lot from her, both in person and through this forum, and would never hesitate to recommend her services to someone. I took lessons there for a couple months, and rode most of the lesson horses at one point or another, I know for sure I rode horse #1, and I'm pretty sure I recall riding #2 as well. They both seemed very happy, well maintained and comfortable at that time, obviously once that changed a bit, she turned here for advice, which indicates someone who has the best interests of the horses at heart... so make people should back up a step and think about that a little more before being so harsh.

lbequ4002 · 11-01-2009, 04:20 PM

different horses are used in different ways. Some are used for research purposes (trying out new drugs/treatments/husbandry/hoof care etc since most donated horses have issues and are good candidates for research) some are used for equine science majors and the like to teach a person how to halter/exercise basic horse care. Vet students learn to deworm, wrap, work with feet, give shots, put in a catheter, ulatrasound etc. It really depends on the university and their policies. I remember one donated horse had a cleft palate and they were trying experimental ways to correct it so the horse could actually live a productive life. That particular horse had a couple surgeries but would have died without the experiemental treatments.

As far as lesson horses you could probably find started 5 year olds reasonably priced. There's always good deals if you know how and where to look. I've found several nice horses for under $1500 that with mileage were worth $5k-$10k or better. Good training can help ensure a better life more so than anything else.

Dream Ponies · 11-01-2009, 05:57 PM

Karen, the responsibility comment was directed towards the "business" comments. I think its sad the some people look at horses as strictly a business and sometimes forget the honor owed to an aged school horse. Without them many of us would never have learned to ride at all. At the end they deserve a life full of dignity and loving care. Your situation is a completely different one altogether. These horses have problems that they may not be able to overcome, but you gave them a loving home when they needed it. That is what loving horses is truly about.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Breeder Ethics Question	Bear Bait	Breeding & Genetics	28	05-07-2008 09:21 PM
Question for the Farriers?	seerfarm	Hoof Talk	2	02-25-2008 04:06 PM
Do Horses Go To Heaven?	Bonanza	General Horse Advice	335	02-14-2008 05:25 AM
Grain question	kupersma07	General Horse Advice	15	02-13-2007 09:19 PM

10-30-2009, 05:39 PM
lopintoo Coming two Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,903	First off, I don't understand why you would buy a horse knowing it has or is developing arthritis and then proceed to jump him? I don't jump, but I wouldn't buy horse knowing he is going to have arthritis and then expect him to hold up for years doing something that I know is detrimental to health. The other horse has problems but you have jumped him too? I just don't understand it... If a horse is hurting you know he's not going to be happy. If you can't take care of him (or don't want to) then find him someone that will be happy to do so as either as a pet or pasture pal. If nobody wants to commit to the expense of the upkeep of them the the kindest thing is to put them down. I have had to do it, and will not hesitate to do so again if needed. (with two in their mid 20's it may not be far off) It's sad, but way better than seeing a painful dwindling shell that used to be a happy powerful horse. Last edited by lopintoo : 10-30-2009 at 08:50 PM. Reason: re-read info and facts, changed my thoughts

10-30-2009, 10:35 PM
EquineAlberta Kid Safe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 6,004	lopin, you do make a good point, and I do feel guilty that my actions may have made the Appy worse. We have had a few vets look at him over and over and NONE have ever said not to jump him...turns out vets don't learn a lot about functional conformation in school. Since then I have discussed his build with a conformation expert and she pointed out many flaws that on their own wouldn't be so bad, but together are an issue. It is a situation were we owned the horse, and tried to find a role for him in our business rather than sell him. Had he ever been unwilling to jump, we would have stopped jumping him. We NEVER punish our horses for refusing a jump. The TB's ankle hasn't been made worse by jumping (it is not like we jump him big) but as with most arthritic conditions, it will degrade on its own. His arthritis is due to an injury and not wear and tear. Should we have bought him and retired him? In a perfect world, yes. should we have let him go to the B tracks and bought something else? Maybe, but he has been a good horse for us, and I think we have offered him a slightly better fate. Still, I am learning from experience, and will be vetting future lesson horses much better...no more "pity" buys. Regardless, they will all wear down and get older, and we will face this decision with even the best chosen horses. Karen __________________ New Hillside Website The Art of Praise

10-30-2009, 11:51 PM
horsecrazygal Newborn Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: FL Posts: 29	Where I took lessons at, many of the horses were older (15+ years). When it came for retirement, many times the horses were given to their favorite student when that student became ready to look for a horse of his own. Sometimes that meant giving the horses away for free or selling them really cheap, or giving them up before they were ready for retirement just because the student was ready for a horse at that time. Maybe that doesn't apply in this case, but for future ideas...

10-31-2009, 10:23 AM
WickedNag Long Yearling Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 1,008	Would horse number one last longer if he was retired now and not in two years. Seems like jumping would shorten his usefulness. __________________ ~D~ Please feel free to visit my sites and light a candle http://amanda-garner.memory-of.com/ http://samantha-evink.memory-of.com/

10-31-2009, 10:52 AM
EquineAlberta Kid Safe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 6,004	WickedNag, depends what you mean by "last longer". Do you mean would he be pasture sound longer? Likely, just like everyone else's horses would likely "last" longer if we stopped riding, but that is a tough one for a business financially. If we retired him, he would still need special shoeing in the summer and some additional maintenance to stay sound (he has small/hard feet, and needs special shoes with packing to keep them pliable in the summer). He costs about $2000 a year to keep. We have cut back on the height of jumps and the amount of work. He does not need bute or other pain killers to stay in working condition...we will retire him before that happens, which I think will be in a year or two. HorseCrazygal, most of our students live in the city, so gifting them a horse would mean they would have board bills. Not really much of a gift, and we don't have the room/pasture to offer them board to. If that became an option, we would of course do that. I have been thinking alot about Lopin's post, and it is true and I do feel guilty. At the same time though, the purchase of sound, well trained, tall and well built horses for jumping lessons would be financially a struggle...we would be looking at paying $5000 or up (even in this bad market). So for 6 horses, that is $30,000. It made me think of other barns who have jumping lesson horses...most are former show horses, and are in the 15 and over age group...you can't tell me they don't have soundness issues, as at that age, almost all jumping horses will have arthritis. I know some barns have all their lesson horses on bute...so is it financially possible to run an ethical jumping lesson barn without charging a fortune for lessons? Maybe that is a new topic though... Karen __________________ New Hillside Website The Art of Praise

10-31-2009, 10:20 PM
lopintoo Coming two Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,903	EA - this may be a bit off topic....but I just got to thinking.... We went to a catalog consignment sale today, so I guess fresh fuel for thought.... Could you take a quiet, trail broke horse with athletic potential and train it for your lesson program. Now I realize it wouldn't be a been there done that type jumping horse or one with years of show experience....but could you, in the next year make it into the kind of horse you would need to replace the one with arthritis? If so, I know we may be a bit far, but down here in the states that type of horse is going for anywhere from a few hundered to $1,500 ( a few hundred for a sorrel with not so popular bloodlines and more for well known bloodlines or "color"). I know you'd have to add your fuel and time costs to it, but still way cheaper than a finished, ready for jumping lessons horse. If you bought 2 or 3 while you were down here it would cheapen it up that much more. Just a thought, don't know if it would work but alot of good ready to use horses went real cheap today and they weren't trader horses many of them came from individuals. It was the cow horses that topped the sale, not many wanted the well broke trail horses. Last edited by lopintoo : 10-31-2009 at 10:25 PM.

11-01-2009, 12:43 AM
EquineAlberta Kid Safe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 6,004	Lopin, thanks for the idea, as you are right, some markets are much more hurt by the economy than others, so I should use that to my advantage while I can. Most of the trail/stock type aren't that suitable for what we do (just aren't built for the length of stride), and tend towards being sickle hocked which isn't good for jumping or dressage.... but prices here are low now too for certain other types of horses, and I am looking at some different crosses...arab crosses mostly, that are smaller than ideal for show horses, or the wrong breed, as it occured to me most of my students are short, and if the horse is stocky enough, then they should be able to handle a taller rider. Plus, if they want to show bigger, they can buy or lease...I have to stop trying to provide people with more horse than we can afford. I am thinking the most sense would be to find horses that can jump now (with training), but that have the personality, gaits, and type to be suitable for beginners when they get older. Buying horses that will never be suitable for beginners makes it harder to phase back their work load. Plus, as long as the horse is over 5 and trained on the basics, I think I have students that may enjoy doing some training. I keep trying to learn from my mistakes! Karen __________________ New Hillside Website The Art of Praise

11-01-2009, 08:17 AM
Drafty Coming two Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,563	You might not like this answer. My instructor told me once, when talking about several of the boarder's horses that were starting to show their advanced age, that for her, this is a business. When one of her horses is no longer earning it's grain, it has to go. Much loved lesson horses who had worked hard their entire lives carting around dead beginners, included. She was a real business woman and always found a way to sell these horses to good homes -- she has never had to advertise a horse or send one to auction, that is the kind of business she runs and the names he has. But because this is her job, she has to make tough choices like this. She would put a horse to sleep rather than keep it around with poor quality of life and no purpose. I know that is not the popular answer, but this is a woman who was into serious show jumping until that once-in-a-lifetime horse passed away. Then she stopped showing and with her good name started a thriving business boarding horses and giving lessons. I will also say that she has always invested in quality horses for lessons. Pre-existing issues are a big no-no in a business. Do they pull at your heart? Sure! But resist if you really want to make money, otherwise be satisfied with it as a hobby. __________________ "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Mahatma Gandhi Breeding solid paints is like breeding spotless Appys - just plain wrong!

11-01-2009, 08:23 AM
WickedNag Long Yearling Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 1,008	Drafty, a big Kudos for a great post. __________________ ~D~ Please feel free to visit my sites and light a candle http://amanda-garner.memory-of.com/ http://samantha-evink.memory-of.com/

11-01-2009, 10:50 AM
GoLightly Newborn Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 46	School Horses Drafty, kudos. and yes, I was frankly appalled by some of what I've been reading here. Quite worrisome. I think, in many cases, the instructor listens to their students, instead of teaching them properly, they jump on seriously compromised animals. You are not contributing to sound teaching practices, by putting your own students in danger. "and these horses worked 15 or so hours a week, 50 weeks of the year...how did they not earn a respectful end?" Your horses sound like they are being worked too hard. 65% of my schoolies were of very advanced age, with various, non-life/humanthreatening like the appy cross, issues. They weren't worked hard, ever. I should say, they were worked within their limitations, kept comfortable always. The students worked THEIR bloody areses off. As they should. Yup, the horses did about 15 hours a week. The students did as much as possible, outside of riding time. Reading, watching, cleaning, grooming. If your students truly love horses, that's what you teach them to do. If they aren't that interested, it's no loss to you, in the long run. The horses benefit. Old horses can go on for years and years, treated well. My cousin had an appy cross lived to be 41 years old, I believe. Lesson horse. He finally coliced, and was euthed. Won ribbons right up to the end. The best kind of animal, or at least, they should be. Why on earth can't people say no to "Can I jump?" My old boys jumped, but they jumped once, twice a week, if the old guys looked like they were up for it. Only with the advanced students. Keep the students that don't deserve to advance where they belong. I'm sorry if I sound a little vehement. Sore spot for me. again, Drafty, thank you. I read something wonderful learned by JimWofford at the US Cavalry School at Fort Riley, Kansas. Thanks to Practical Horseman magazine. "Walk for muscle, trot for balance, canter for wind, or endurance". This is true of riders, too. Best of luck! __________________ Hope is the thing with feathers, that perches in the soul, and sings the tune without the words, and never stops at all.. Emily Dickinson. When I was born, I was so surprised, I didn't speak for a year and a half. Gracie Allan. Last edited by GoLightly : 11-01-2009 at 10:58 AM. Reason: correction to quote

11-01-2009, 02:39 PM
Dream Ponies Yearling Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NY Posts: 763	As much of a business it may be, if you take on the responsibility of a living breathing horse, he is your responsibility no matter what. And if you have earned a great living from that horse you have even greater responsibilities to care for them. At the dressage barn my daughter rides at the owners would never put down a horse because they can't be used anymore. I know this because their oldest lesson horse had a very bad time last year. They fought tooth and nail for this mare and she now is happily enjoying retirement. Business may be business, but I don't ever want my children to think any living thing can be tossed away because old age or lack of use. That is a lesson barn of the wrong kind. And Karen, I have always had the greatest respect for you and don't doubt you will find the right solution for each horse.

11-01-2009, 03:08 PM
Rafflesgirl Weanling Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 491	Wow this is really worrisome for me also. I do understand that this is your business I truly do. But I am also of the mindset that when we adopt an animal whether for pleasure or business we have a very serious committment to them. Not only to care for them while they are useful but to then try and find the best home possible when they are not useful. Now if after much searching that wonderful retirement home is not found then I also support humane euthanasia but the ages of these horses concern me. If they were pushing 20 or older then I would be more in support of euthanasia, but at younger ages, say under 10 or early teens I would definitely try the rehoming. There are actually people out there willing to take on a retired animal and give it the best possible home ever. I'm one of them. I'm fortunate that financially I can do that. We have a retired 25 year old shetland pony who I keep and take excellent care of because we used him for the kids to learn on and we love him. And he could probably be used by someone's child, but he might not get the care he needs so I keep him. I have also adopted a 24 year old retired stud, had him gelded and he lived out his life happily with my mare and her filly. This was 4 1/2 more years of love and attention. For me it's not just about being able to use them or ride them or whatever, it's the joy of seeing them happy out in the field doing nothing at all. It's the happiness I get brushing them, washing them, pampering them. And I'd do that again if I could but I have the pony now and another mare who is only lightly used and my daughter has a horse that she shows so I'm at my limit ha ha. So you sound like a really kind, responsible person, I just wanted to say that people like me do exist! Good luck with all your horses and horse business! __________________ Kelli ~He is the lord of all horses and has been my friend through many dangers~

11-01-2009, 03:20 PM
EquineAlberta Kid Safe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 6,004	Golightly, the part you quoted was at a barn I used to learn at. My own horses go 4-6 rides per week, with 1 or 2 of those typically being lease rides (non-jumping, lighter work). Horses do not jump more than 3 times per week. I teach jumping lessons, so students expect to jump. That doesn't mean we always jump...if something happens and I have to use an older horse in a jumping lesson, we will do dressage instead. We also jump small for the most part, and only go to 2'6" on occasion. I do not feel my horses are overworked by any means, but that they are worked enough to maintain their fitness to allow them to do their job. Dream Ponies, i agree with you, that these horses are my responsibilty, which is why I am not selling them as they now, or will soon, require maintenance I do not think I can trust someone else to maintain. The truth is that the appy is currently not what I consider pasture sound, and I am not ok with leaving him to live out his days in pain even though I accept it is likely my fault he is in pain. I just don't know if it is within our means to figure out the base of his issue. Why does it make people feel better to watch a horse grow old and suffer? I see the other side though...that people shouldn't feel ok using up a horse and then dumping it...that is the issue I grapple with. I am ok with paying a certain amount to get him pasture sound, but then what? He is only 9. Do we pay $150.00 a month plus vet care to retire him? We have limited space which is another consideration. Max 30 horses. So we have one horse who is semi retired (I use him for ponying) and pasture sound already, I don't think our business can have as many retired horses as usuable horses. drafty, she found those horses "good homes", but how does she know that they didn't go elsewhere from there? It scares me to think of where these horses could end up. Particularly in the market we have right now...low on hay, high meat prices....lots of horses for sale and not a lot of buyers. Not that these horses need to go anywhere anytime soon, so things could change, but what won't change is that there are some VERY unscrupulous people around here...who borrow kids to look honest, and then pack the horse to the slaughter houses (big issue with the TB farms last year). Do you have any idea how she networked to find her old horses new homes? What sort of home could a horse that wasn't able to cart around beginners find? Maybe there is a market I just don't know about. Karen __________________ New Hillside Website The Art of Praise

11-01-2009, 03:41 PM
lbequ4002 Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Central AL Posts: 962	Not sure if someone has already said this or not but you could always donate to a vet school. I used to volunteer at the vet school at my university and that particular vet school maintained the horses beautifully. Some were used in their various programs but none were abused and all were maintained. Many times if the horses were sound they were used by the university's equestrian team and still maintained by the vet school. You won't be able to check up on the horse once it's donated though. The owner is never permitted to come back into contact with the horse. Sometimes, the horses are sold at auction but it was typically foals and young horses from the universities breeding program. I'm not sure they every sell the donated horses. One trainer who I greatly admire starts young horses nice horses and puts them in her lesson program. She uses her more confident and better riders to put mileage on the horses and then sells them after a year or two in the lesson program. So basically they are sold when their value is highest and her students are putting the show miles on them so she does better businesswise and always has fresh horses. she also have several 30+ year olds for the beginners but she's got a knack for finding horses with good dispositions and sometimes they are leased or psuedo leased (only one or 2 different people ride them). She doesn't overwork the horses and doesn't seem to get into situations where horses get bored and out of tune from being a "lesson" horse.

11-01-2009, 04:06 PM
EquineAlberta Kid Safe Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 6,004	lbequ, What would the horses do at a vet school? That is an interesting idea for the appy...I will discuss it with my vet and my student who just graduated from a localish vet school to see what she thought about how the horses were cared for at it. If there was a massage school he would be ideal for students to work on! Your idea about using the program to add value to horses and sell in their prime is an interesting one as well. We do have to wait until a horse is at least 5 for students to use them (or void our insurance!)....but maybe we could get the lease students "in on it" so they could qualify for a commission and could help with marketing which would also add an educational aspect to the process. By doing that we would then just have a few core "lifers" that we would have to be prepared to retire, rather than all of them. If I look at it from that angle, I would need to relook at the types of horses I am searching for though, to look at resale value rather than just longevity. Interesting. Thanks! Karen __________________ New Hillside Website The Art of Praise

11-01-2009, 04:09 PM
AlbertaGirl Greenbroke Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Alberta Posts: 3,906	I just wanted to say that I'm quite offended with the tone this thread has taken... Karen has been on here for a long time, and all of her posts speaks volumes about her love for horses, the care she puts into them, and how much time and effort she puts into thinking outside the box, to help "problem" horses. She has said a few times already that she is learning from her mistakes, and these "mistakes" are ones that I'm sure tons of people have made. Yes, she is a lesson barn, but she's worked hard at trying to provide an reasonably priced place people can learn to ride, and her place is very nice! She's even had rubber crumbles put in the arena to provide better footing for the horses. Just because she does lessons and training does not mean that she always knew everything there was to know about every nuance of how using these two for lessons would be affected by their conformation. I've personally seen way worse than anything mentioned in this thread, and long time "horse people" who didn't think there was anything wrong with it and not willing to make any changes I have learned a lot from her, both in person and through this forum, and would never hesitate to recommend her services to someone. I took lessons there for a couple months, and rode most of the lesson horses at one point or another, I know for sure I rode horse #1, and I'm pretty sure I recall riding #2 as well. They both seemed very happy, well maintained and comfortable at that time, obviously once that changed a bit, she turned here for advice, which indicates someone who has the best interests of the horses at heart... so make people should back up a step and think about that a little more before being so harsh. __________________ Some people say horses don't have a sense of humor... they obviously haven't met mine yet ;o)

11-01-2009, 04:20 PM
lbequ4002 Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Central AL Posts: 962	different horses are used in different ways. Some are used for research purposes (trying out new drugs/treatments/husbandry/hoof care etc since most donated horses have issues and are good candidates for research) some are used for equine science majors and the like to teach a person how to halter/exercise basic horse care. Vet students learn to deworm, wrap, work with feet, give shots, put in a catheter, ulatrasound etc. It really depends on the university and their policies. I remember one donated horse had a cleft palate and they were trying experimental ways to correct it so the horse could actually live a productive life. That particular horse had a couple surgeries but would have died without the experiemental treatments. As far as lesson horses you could probably find started 5 year olds reasonably priced. There's always good deals if you know how and where to look. I've found several nice horses for under $1500 that with mileage were worth $5k-$10k or better. Good training can help ensure a better life more so than anything else.

11-01-2009, 05:57 PM
Dream Ponies Yearling Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NY Posts: 763	Karen, the responsibility comment was directed towards the "business" comments. I think its sad the some people look at horses as strictly a business and sometimes forget the honor owed to an aged school horse. Without them many of us would never have learned to ride at all. At the end they deserve a life full of dignity and loving care. Your situation is a completely different one altogether. These horses have problems that they may not be able to overcome, but you gave them a loving home when they needed it. That is what loving horses is truly about.