Dog Bites

[pippy]

Last weekend, my daughter was at a friend's place, she's been there before- spent the night and everything previous to last Sunday and been around this dog and all was fine- she went in the house (Sun.), was talking to the owner when their dog jumped up on her- growling and bit her- in the face- my daughter has 21 stiches now on her face, it will leave a scar. She is 14.. I am upset about the dog, as he was not provoked, infact did this right infront of his owner as she faced the owner and talked to him(as if it didn't matter his master was there) and I guess this was completely out of character for this dog (just over a year old lab type). Since this dog was a rescue, we wonder if something my daughter did triggered this reaction at that time except that she wasn't doing anything wrong- the only thing different on Sunday than any other day was that she had been playing paintball outside, we wondered if something of the smell of the paint balls (she had it splattered on her) triggered the dog?
I am not angry at my friend or her husband as this dog was not a known aggressive dog and they would never want this to happen. I am upset though w/ the dog. Most say that I should demand he be put down, this is his first offense- I have not asked that the dog be put down. I feel the family has had enough heartache and this was a fluke of nature? The police microchipped him and said if he does it again, he will have to be put down or they pay a huge bond.. I do not know what their homeowners will say- can they force him to be putdown? She mentioned this could be a problem. This family has recently had loss of child and have been alot of people coming and going and I thought maybe the dog was upset w/ the environment lately and my daughter was unfortunately the one there that he took it out on?...so for you dog gurus (as I am not)
what do you think of this otherwise non aggressive dog biting serious enough to warrent 21 stitches? how many think the dog should be put down (all my friends/ family tell me to force them to put the dog down- I am on one hand understanding (it was an unfortunate happening- accident? but it was willful so that is not an accident right?) and the other thinking friends/family are right but ultimately it is out of my control (up to homeowners) and that is probably good as these folks are our friends & I hate to lose that but then again, my daughter is scarred forever now-- and if the dog was abused as a puppy (say 3 months old) by a paintballer or that type smell, would 8-9 months later the dog still react this way? Could it be the stress of the death in the family or all the above that triggered? In the end we'll never know.
Just wondering what others experience is?
I feel bewildered.

[Diamond_Y]

I would say a dog would remember if he had been abused by a paintballer.

We were not home and some of my daughter's friends wrapped our house. Front yard was no problem, but they tried to put TP in our pool. To do that, they had to get into the backyard. Our dog didn't approve and showed them back to the fence, they came back with their paintball guns and shot him. From that time forward, if he saw any gun, even a toy one, he would cower. He was terrified of them. Now this dog did not have an agressive bone in his body, but he definitely remembered.

[roberts617]

That is a very sticky situation. I am sure that the dog would remember if he was abused by a paintball gun. But you will never know if that is for sure what it was. Could be a number of things that happened to him and triggered his reaction.
I am so sorry that happened to your daughter and wish you the best of luck in finding your answer. I know how hard that must be for you.

[wildcat180]

Normally, I'm all for proper training/corrective training. In this case, I'd have to say put the dog down. You didn't mention much about the dog's history, only that it's a year old Lab type. Either they've had the dog since he was very young, or they just got him. In which case, he was either too young to have such a violent reaction to the smell of paint balls, or they didn't know just what this dog was capable of, having not had him long.

At a year old, this dog is still very much a puppy. Mentally, anyway. For him to attack and cause that much damage, totally unprovoked, I'd have to say there's something wrong with the dog. Put him down.

As for the homeowners insurance, their current company may do one of two things. Either they're going to cover the claim and then drop them, or they're going to demand they get rid of the dog. No insurance company will touch them with this claim on record and them still owning the dog.

I'm sorry this happened to your daughter. Such a horrible thing...

[Carri]

I am so sorry that this happened.
I would have hoped that the owners of the dog, in good consience, would have him put down out of fear of what he might do to someone else. What if it had been a toddler? The same bite could have killed a small child. What if it had been just a little lower? It would have killed your daughter. I cannot believe that they would take that risk. Whatever the reason is for the dog to do this, there is no excuse, and it will probably happen again. I, for one, would make sure that any time your daughter spends with them in the future is not at their house and not around the dog.
There are so many good dogs in this world looking for a home, why keep one that is so vicious? Even as a one time incident (so far) it was NOT an accident and it will undoubtedly happen again.
My daughter got a lab/pit bull mix for her birthday when she was 5, and we raised it from a tiny puppy, and after it was a year old it suddenly turned on my husband. She did not break the skin, and he got away from her and got her in her crate. He was trying to give her a bath, so we excused it, and started taking her to the vet for a bath. One day, she completely turned on the vet tech bathing her, and tore up his arm. She did not come home from the vet that day. We should have heeded the warnings she gave us.
To replace my daughter's dog, we took her to the pound and she picked out a cute little corgi/basenji mix, and we played with him and he seemed great with the kids, so we took him home. He was great for a few weeks, and then one night, I was tucking my daughter into bed, and tried to get him out fo the bed to take him downstairs with me, and he attacked me. I had to have stitches in my lip. He attacked so fiercely that I had to just shut him in my daughter's bedroom and wait for my husband to get home (she had run out when he started attacking me). I could have understood even if he had just growled or snapped when I tried to get him down, but he kept coming after me even when I backed off. I had no qualms about taking him back to the humane society and telling them what he had done, knowing full well what they would do with him.
I am a dog lover, I have 4 dogs, a rottweiler/german shepherd mix, a rat terrier, a king charles spaniel, and a miniature wire haired dachsund. I love dogs as much as anyone, but I am the first to say that a bad one should be put down. There are so many good dogs in the world that need homes, it is better to find them homes so they will not be put down than to keep the bad ones in good homes. A vicious dog is very dangerous.

[Jadesmygirl]

Oh Pippy, I am so sorry! What an awful predicament to be in with your friends, and worse yet, the suffering your daughter might endure. Fourteen is such a delicate age.


If the dog was a rescue, there is no telling what his history as been. I am making some assumptions here, but perhaps he had been aggressive and that is why he was given up by previous owners. Or, whatever he needed to be rescued from (abuse, neglect?) caused aggression in him.

Then again, there are people who breed rather indiscriminately (particularly if they have a popular breed that sells fast) and he could be the product of inbreeding, or an aggressive parent.

You will probably never know the reason for sure. I do think most dogs that have been abused would be more likely to cower and slink away than attack unprovoked though.

I feel for you and your daughter. I feel for your friends too-it sounds like they have been through the wringer.

With all the extenuating circumstances, I am not even sure what I would do if in your shoes.

I hope your daughter heals quickly. I will keep you all in my prayers!

[AlbertaGirl]

I immediately wondered if maybe when your daughter was talking to the owner, she did something almost imperceptable to anyone except the dog, maybe even just gesturing quickly, and the dog felt the need to protect his owner? Whatever the reason, it wasn't right and I feel bad for your daughter! Hope she heals up much better than expected...

If they've done everything to raise that dog right, I also feel bad for the owners, as it doesn't sound like it was their fault at all, and you said they'd just lost a child... The stress of the death in the family could've had something to do with it, but I doubt anyone will ever really know. Have they made any mention about considering putting the dog down?

[joustinggirl]

Lets not forget that medical problems can cause otherwise nice dogs to do an unpredictable act. Brain tumors, seizure activity and some breed specific problems(rage syndrome) comes to mind.

[barnmom]

I'm so sorry this happened to your daughter.

Dogs do remember abuse, my pinky was abused as a puppy and she is 12yrs old now.

Anything with wheels, scare her, she has never been in our basement and she follows me everywhere, you can't pet her neck...the list goes on, but she definitely remembers.

She has come a long way but some scars won't heal.

[wildcat180]

Of course animals remember abuse, that's evident enough to anyone that's ever dealt with a truly abused animal. It's how that animal reacts that matters, really. If it's first reaction is turn violent, you have an animal that could become a danger to the people around them. Dogs that show tendencies like this in animal shelters are usually put down because the shelter is aware of the liability these types of animals can be.

My oldest male pit bull was found, as a four month puppy, tied to a tree with a teenager shooting at him with a BB gun. He was trying to make him mean. Zeus needed surgery to remove BBs that had been embedded under his skin. You what? We have guns of all kinds, even BB guns. Zeus doesn't react to them. He most likely remembers what happened to him and how bad it was. But he overcame it. He doesn't turn into a raving lunatic in instant attack mode when he sees, or hears, a BB gun and has never had issues with being tied up when outside.

Even if this dog was abused with a paint ball gun, it's still no excuse for the level of aggression that the dog showed. Making excuses like that for a dog that attacked on such a level is asking for someone else to get hurt. If this had happened during a shelter evaluation, the dog would've already gotten the needle.

[sugarsgal]

This same situation happened to a good friend of mine. Her daughter spent alot of time at this friends house and 1 day the dog just bit her in the face for NO reason at all. She had to have 10 + stitches The dog was not put down as my friend said no to that (Dogs first and only attack) but she did sue the dog owner. She settled out of court but they are no longer on speaking terms. As for the dog it never (to my friends knowledge) went after anyone again

If the dog was a rescue and new to the home and is going through a family misfortune and traffic in and out, I'm sure this all played a part in the dogs attack.

Sending (((HUGS))) to your daughter and prayers for a speedy recover with a minimal scaring. I feel for her especially at her age and dealing with such a scar

[KatieMae]

Can't really help you on why the dog could have done it, all I can offer is that I've been in that situation... Only like, 16 years ago... Being bit in the face by a dog, that is... My scar's basically gone, now, but the dog narrowly missed my eye, thankfully... Basically, I feel her pain... Sorry that had to happen

[Applejack]

I don’t have any advice to share, but I wanted to say I’m so sorry for what your daughter is going through and I wish her a speedy recovery.

[starry lane]

This dog behavior can happen without any abuse in the background of the dog. We see this a lot in dogs that have been allowed to establish a dominance in their household. One thing everyone needs to remember are that dogs are pack animals, from the largest Great Dane to the smallest Chihuahua. That instinct to protect the "members" of their pack are still there. My guess of the situation is that with all the stress going on in the neighbor's household, the dog reacted, and not in the best way. It doesn't mean the dog is vicious. It means the dog was taking clues from the neighbor's body language (however subtle) and reacted to it. The dog feels it is on an equal basis with the members of the household and "allowed" to react as he feels it is needed. The problem now is, since the dog has done this, the neighbor will now feel even more tense and nervous whenever the dog is around people, and her anxiety may trigger the dog to react again. My suggestion would be to place the dog with someone experienced in dog handling, who can work with establishing a firm "proper" bond with this dog. The family should choose a new dog that has been temperment tested properly, and scores high in the 3 range of the testing. These dogs are more likely to give control to their owners and not want to be the dominant "pack leader". My guess is their dog would test in the 1-2 range, which is a dog that needs an experienced dog person. I am very careful to never place any of my 1-2 scoring puppies into families with young children or first-time dog owners. I did it once in the past, with a family who promised to work with a trainer, but thought they could do it themselves. A year later, I ended up getting the dog back because she was "unmanageable". A little training and placement in the right type of home, she is now a happy, well-trained, sweetheart of a dog.

Linda
Starry Lane Kennels

[pippy]

Hi all, thank you for your thoughts and wishes for my daughter.
I am not sure if this dog is a full lab or a lab mix but if mix, it's more lab than not from the way it looks. It is only a year old & they've had it since it was very young, I am not for sure how old but I think a couple months old when they got it, so for the most part it's been in their family except for those first couple or three months. My friend said she does not want to put the dog down. She said their homeowners insurance (since the homeowners will pay the med bills for this) may require to put the dog down but she said she would lie (say she put the dog down and then don't) if she had to so that she could keep the dog because she feels this was an accident type occurance or a one time deal out of the ordinary, that something on that day triggered the dog but that the dog would not do this again but because he is classified as potentially dangerous now they will take all precautions to not let this happen again.
I know she means this and will do what she needs to do without having to lose the dog.
Their young child used to play w/ the dog and the dog was never aggressive and they don't think he is a threat. They said if they thought he was dangerous they would definitely put the dog down. The dog is tied in to memories of the child they just lost, so maybe it's hard for them to think of losing both - literally with in 3 weeks of each other.
I'm hoping for everyone's sake they are right in that this is a one time event, I'm upset that it happened though. I'm hoping the wound does heal well and with minimum scarring. It was only a inch from her right eye so I am very grateful it didn't get her eye.

[wildcat180]

When you have a dog that has already PROVEN itself to be a biter, you really do NOT want to lie to your homeowners insurance company. She cannot guarantee that this will never happen again, no matter how good her intentions are, mainly because she doesn't know WHY it happened in the first place. If she knew the exact cause, I'd have a different opinion because it could be avoided. But she doesn't. She is putting EVERYTHING her family has worked for and owns at risk for the sake of a dog that has already bitten unprovoked. If the dog should bite someone else, the homeowners insurance company will NOT cover the claim if they required her to get rid of the dog and she didn't. This WILL leave her open to a huge lawsuit. The fact that it's on record that the dog has bitten already will only work to cause her a great risk of loss because she can then be found to be negligent.

I sympathize with their loss. But they really need to see the bigger picture. Since they've had this dog since it was a puppy, they obviously could not prevent this situation from happening to begin with. They have no idea why the dog attacked like it did and it is, forgive my harshness here, totally irresponsible for them to even CONSIDER keeping this dog without taking MAJOR (and expensive) precautions. (Like a liability insurance policy on the dog should it ever bite again, an outside enclosure that locks and the dog can't dig or climb out of, and working with a professional trainer, just to name a few.) It's also totally selfish of them to consider keeping the dog when they can't handle the dog. (Which is evident by the fact the dog attacked unprovoked.) So, this dog gets to stay with them, right? OK, let's say they lock the dog away anytime they have company. Is that fair to the dog? Is that helping with the dog's problem? The answer to both questions is no.

How many times does the dog have to bite before they realize they have a problem? Do they have to lose their home? Their money? Do they want the stigma of keeping a dangerous dog? For what? It's just not worth it. This is coming from someone who doesn't believe in getting rid of animals for anything less than a major offense. I currently have two pit bull males that can not ever be together because they will fight. I have come up with a system that allows both dogs to be in the house, but it's not a convenient method by any means. When one is loose, the other is crated. I'm only saying this to show that I deal with a difficult situation everyday and I have not had a fight in over two years with this method. However, I'm a very strong leader and I understand the basic behavior of my dogs. I know what triggers the fights. I also know that I can't avoid those triggers when both dogs are loose together, so they can't be loose together.

Fighting between dogs is one thing. My dogs are my kids, but you can bet your behind if they EVER bit someone, they'd be taking a trip to the vet. Human aggression is NOT something I tolerate. (Unless it's an abusive situation and the dog is defending itself.) If one of my dogs had attacked like this dog did, it would already be at the vet's.

I sincerely hope this was a one time thing. I really do. I just can't believe your friend would be so willing to put everything they have at risk for the sake of something that has proven itself to be a problem. It's just mind boggling to me.

[texas sassy]

Much sympathy to your daughter, will you let her go to this house again? What a sticky situation! I'm with Wildcat 100% on this one, and I bet this will be a debate, but a dog that has bitten a child, esp in the face, is NOT welcome in my house. There are dogs being put down every day that would not do this. I have no room in my house for aggressive dogs. I feel for these people, they have gone through hell lately, but this dog has crossed the line IMO.

[Seanachie]

Stop trying to rationalize it. It's black and white: If the dog bit a human without blatant provocation the dog should be put down. End of story.

Note: I also don't try to reason out the applicability of whether or not a violent criminal was deprived of his Game Boy cartridges at age 14. I don't care. If he's proven to be a threat to society, he needs to be removed from society.

[Horse poor]

The dog bit a human who was still and none threatening. There is only one answer to the problem. I realize that the loss of a child will affect an animal. When our son died we had a border collie malamute mix that was close to our son. Having been there when the ambulance came to pick up our son. When we brought the ambulance to our house to clean it for the 4th parade( husband and I were EMT'S) he went around checking to see if we were all there and kept checking until the ambulance went back to the station. Still there is no excuse for total unprovoked aggression.

[Peter-John's Love]

First...great sympathy and prayers for your daughter to fully recover, both physically and emotionally. Any scar she carries will be a testiment to her love for her friends.

Second...prayers and sympathy to your friends. The loss of a child is so terrible....a deep and recent wound that stitches can't even close.

Third...put the dog down. Unprovoked and fear biting are the worst kind. If I take your food, if I hit you or your owner, if I provoke you; I might forgive the behavior. It might be possible to retrain or avoid this problem situation. If it comes from fear or unprovoked; the dog is dangerous. This dog should be put down. That is hard for me to even say that.

Fourth....you need to protect your daughter and your friends from future harm. I know you care for your friends...and should. But if they lie about keeping the dog (if they get told to put it down), or refuse to protect themselves, their children and others it will become criminal. It is not just about getting insurance. Insurance companies don't cover things that will cost them. They have numbers of how many dogs will do it again. Even if this dog wouldn't, it is like playing Russian Roulette. That is why insurance companies require a change.

Fifth...you need to help your friends understand all this. Have them get grief counseling or some kind of help....They cannot think with their heads right now...in 3 weeks, another loss of any kind is just to much. Most likely, professional help is needed. I am a pastor and we are trained in grief work. There are other places to get help, like most vet's or rescue groups should have training and / or experience in dealing with this type situation and can help evaluate and guide in the decision. This situation is so "touchy" in many ways. IMO...Do not confront, demand or pressure them...be with them and guide them to see the need. However, do not let it go. I believe you know in your own heart what must happen and posted this to be sure that is right.

Finally, note that You are grieving also (your friend's child dying, your daughter being hurt). Try to get someone to assist in the situation. Prayers for you also as so much of this is on your shoulders.

Please keep us updated as to what happens.

Hugs to you.