potentially dangerous dog

[paso_lover]

I have had Keesha (gsd x)now about 9 months and she about a year and a half old.

History: got her from my friend because she was too much for her to handle with 4 kids (3 of them boys) with the youngest being ADD and on meds. She has had her from 8 weeks till I got her in the fall. Very good dog and friendly yet protective with the family just VERY high strung due to the lack of knowledge and discipline.

As I said she is a GOOD dog around us and most strangers as long as they are boys and grown up men and women. PROBLEM.....she wants to rip apart any little girl she sees. Not just barking and growling, I mean pull the 100lbs dog house across the driveway to get at them. We have 3 girls next door and when my son hurt himself they all came running out of the barn to see what happened and she literally dragged her house to get to them, she is maybe 55lbs.

Yesterday I decided it was fair time to start socializing her the proper way as I was pretty much done with my other puppy and Kenya would be able to handle her as long as I was at her side all the time. We went to my son's soccer game and sat away from everyone but close enough for them to understand the proper behaviour out in public. Shyla has issues with other dogs...pretty much fixable as she is only 1 but Keesha on the other hand was really good and goofy around the boys. Rolling over me and having a grand ol' time being out but as soon as some girls came passing by she turned into satans keeper . Needless to say I will be taking her to get a mussel fitted for when we are out. She is NOT aggressive with my daughter at all so how do I go about fixing this??

[Appylover]

Get a trainer?? Did she have promblems before you got her? Like did the prevous owners daughter hit the dog or anything??? other than that I got no idea! sorry!

[Range]

I'm going to second that...did she have problems in the past with little girls abusing her?

I like that you're socializing her, but very scary if she were to pull away from you!

I have a dog that I have to cage when children come to visit. He cannot handle them and I don't take any chances.

[RockItDontKnockit22]

One of our dalmatians, Pongo, is a rescue. The people couldn't handle him and I believe we got him for free but I don't remember as it was a good 10 or so years ago. But anyway they had bought him due to the 101 Dalmatians movie bringing about that trend...and quickly found they couldn't handle his, well, spirit. He was uncut at that time, but we had him fixed. And boy did his personality change. I can't find anywhere that you said she was spayed, though she probably is. If not though, I would suggest it.
I would also say she's been beaten. I know the orig. owner is a friend but maybe she was hit too hard or something. Pongo was beaten by a man sometime in his life, and when my strange men go to pet him, the dog puts his head to the ground and his butt in the air and squints his beady eyes shut. He also hates men with hats, and usually when they take the hat of he is ok.

Another story: My grandma has a schnauzer (sp.? the kind of dog that is grey and is built like a scottie) who was a stray, and they got her as a pup. She hates me, and I haven't done anything to her. But we assume somewhere along the line, a rough teenage girl must have abused her or something.

Good Luck! I hope she calms down for you.

[wildcat180]

Why did you wait 9 months to start socializing her? Younger is always better...

I would highly suggest a trainer at this point. Putting a muzzle on her to take her into public is not going to help the socialization issue. Yes, it will stop her from biting someone, but there are other things to consider.

Think of how you'd react towards a strange dog, out with its owner, wearing a muzzle. Are you going to be quick to approach this dog to pet it? Or are you going to stay out of its range for safety reasons? Most people would stay away. So what Keesha is going to see, when she's out with her muzzle, is that people, who she's wary of to begin with, are acting differently and evasively. That could reinforce her behavior. She could end up making the association of the people avoiding her as justification for her mistrust. She's not going to think it's because of the muzzle...

I'm sure there's a better way to explain what I just said, which is a clear as mud now that I reread it. But hopefully, you get the idea behind what I'm trying to say.

Get a trainer that can work with both of you in a controlled and professional manner. That's the best option at this point.

[mandelyn82]

Definately have the muzzle on her when you expect to be around little girls. You could start her out by giving her treats when she doesn't make a fuss over the little girls. As soon as she tries to, calm her. Put her into a sit, even if you have to practically sit on her yourself. Teach her a no-bark command... i.e. "no bark", "shush", or something like that.

If you speak to her in soothing tones, in an attempt to calm her, that is perceived by the dog as praise for the behavior. She needs to be commanded to stop this display of aggression. Attempting to calm her by being nice only makes the problem worse.

Once she'll sit and be quiet, give her a treat and praise. She's now being rewarded for shutting her mouth and being a good dog. After this you can start having girls toss her a treat. From a safe distance of course.

With time and continued exposure, you should reach the point where the dog thinks little girls are just fantastic because of all the treats they give her. But it has to start with you having her chill out so that the girls can begin coming in a little bit closer each time.

It might help if your daughter stands with the treat giving volunteers, to make the connection in your dogs head.

I like to use extra special treats like cooked Chicken, Liver, or tuna. Something that has a strong smell so that she can catch a whiff from a distance.

Shepherds have an instinct to protect. If they're not given a job, they'll find their own things to guard against. Your's has chosen little girls for one reason or another. My dad's shepherd has singled out the mailman and people approaching dad's truck after dark.

Mine have class where they can bark their fool heads off, but all other times it's a no-no. They have to sit, stay, and remain calm if I've said not to bark at whatever or who ever got their shackles raised.

[JoAnne]

I have a similar problem dog, but older. Recommenda trainer. Also a wire cage muzzle. It actually does help to calm them down, he is meeker with it on they can pant and lick but can't open their mouth for growling and snapping. best to walk with one on till she is better socialized.

[mandelyn82]

I see what Wildcat is saying about the muzzle and people's responce, that didn't even occur to me.

If little girls are the only social hang-up she has though, a trainer will not see that problem unless there are little girls around for her to get riled up over.

If you look into a trainer, see if there is one that can come to your house, to personally see how she acts with the girls next door. Then the trainer can help you through that in the inviroment that the problem occurs in.

[Jadesmygirl]

Personally, I would be far more concerned with the safety of innocent little girls than with how the dog might perceive the world right now.

It will do no one any favors, particularly Keesha, if she bites someone before she is given the chance to receive training. I totally support your use of a muzzle for the sake of children, YOU (liability) and the dog!!

If you do hire a trainer, s/he can decide if the use of a muzzle is warranted or appropriate, as well as offer solutions to avoid its use, if that is your goal. But I agree that a "potentially dangerous dog" is best left to the professionals, and until then, a muzzle is in order.

It is not unusual for dogs to react aggressively to fear in humans. Given the bit of Keesha's history you have provided, and her environment, it seems a more likely scenario might be that she found entertainment in barking at passers by. Somewhere along the line, there was probably a young girl whose response was to become fearful and run. Maybe Keesha reacted to the fear smell, or perhaps her gsd herding instinct kicked in and frustrated her..who knows?? Either way, Keesha, untrained and undisciplined-possibly bored-may have found the reaction rewarding.

Since it does not appear that Keesha is wary or timid,( you stated she was playing and rolling around at the game) it sounds more like an aggression issue, in my opinion. Therefore, especially, I would not worry about her psyche in regards to muzzling, and instead worry about keeping everyone safe!

[wildcat180]

Jadesmygirl, she wanted to know how to go about fixing the problem. Muzzling, in this case, is a band aid. It won't fix the problem, just stop the dog from biting. Since pasolover didn't ask how to prevent the dog from biting, I addressed the issue at hand and stand by every word I said. I would hope that it goes without saying that she needs to be cautious with the dog to avoid having her bite someone.

I'll even go a step farther and say it DOES matter how Keesha views the world. That's the main source of the problem. There's something about the girls that set her off, her "view" of them, if you will. It needs to be addressed, by a professional.

A professional trainer will be able to address specific problems, especially ones that are well known. So, PL can call one and say, "hey, I've got this dog that seems to be real aggressive when around little girls". Trainer doesn't have to wait to see, or hope that it pops up, to know it's a problem. Many professional trainers are contacted for very specific problems. This case is no different.

[Slim Pikkens]

If this dog respected you, the other issues would disappear. I had such a dog which I obtained as a 3yr old. I put a nylon collar on him and walked him on leash. As soon as his attention went elsewhere he got a sideways tug on the collar. Sometimes I bump his neck with my hand or give him a bump with my heel to get his attention. He never knew which one he might get. It wasn't to hurt him, just get his attention on me. After one 10 min session I saw great improvement. We reviewed this the next day and the dog became a pleasure to have around instead of a rambunctious idiot that chased whatever moved. He still wants to chase but at least he turns the instant he hears his name and "come".

[beckyp]

I hope you can get the problem solved,we recently acquired a pit bull that seemed to be intimidated by guys with hats,he growled at my daughter's bf who was wearing a cap,but when cap was removed all was well. He also growled at me once,I believe he thought I was guy with my buzz cut,I let him smell my hand and then he was fine. You may never know why Keesha reacts that way with girls,but I hope you can find solution to improve behavior.

[PATrailGirl]

I have a dog with a very similar problem. He also tries to bite any little girls near him. I found out before I moved that while I was at work, my BIL would let the dogs out during the day for me, but instead of watching them the entire time like I did, he would put my rottiex on his 40ft. line and go inside. It turns out that several neighborhood girls would throw rocks at him. Believe me, when I found out I was furious, but the only way I found out was I was around the side of the house and they started doing it. My dog was not agressive towards anyone before this, and is only agressive to girls now, not women. It turned out really bad because when I caught the one girl after she climbed my fence fence to get closer to do this, my dog bit her hand. Luckily, it wasn't my fault b/c the girl climbed my fence, went to a dog that was also on a line(He would dig the fence line if off of it) and while trying to hit him with a rock, got bitten. I couldn't believe a child would do this, let along girls! The mother heard it from me, the police, and the dog warden! So, now my dog will try to bite any girl that comes near him. I am slowly introducing him to older girls under very controlled circumstances, and he is accepting them, so eventually I will work my way down in age. It seems like now he only tried to bite if young girls aggressively run towards him(which I don't allow anyways), but I don't think I will ever be able to trust him entirely again, and it's a shame b/c it's not his fault in the least bit.

[texas sassy]

When I was a baby, MANY years ago, my mom had to give away a beloved sheltie because he too hated little girls. It was the high pitched squealing he could not tolerate.

[SweetPea&Sage]

I think at this point in your dogs life it is going to be VERY hard to socialize her with young girls, and even if you do get her to that point with you around, what is she doing to do when you aren't around? Fears get ingrained in a dog when they are around 8 months old. Their are some severe steps you may be able to take, and you may be able to get her to the point where she can mangage to "contain" herself, but I'm guessing you will never get her to the point where she will like little girls for one reason or another.

At this point I think your going to have to look at how can you protect little girls from Keesha, rather than what can I do to socalize Keesha. This is a diaster waiting to happen if she got loose. The thing is, even though it is a band-aid, you may have to muzzle Keesha when you are not around, in case she does get loose... If you want to keep this dog, and because you understand her tendancy's, you may have to take extra stops to protect people from her. It is a lot of responsiblity to keep a potential time bomb contained.

Now one of the other tools I suggest with a dog to get it's attention when on a leash is a prong or pinch collar... they look like they hurt, but they are safer for the dog than choke collars (choke collars can damange windpipes)... they need to be kept tight and will rest towards the back of the head, rather than lower on the neck, but normally get even the most dominant dogs attention. Coco, my boxer/rot used to be very dog aggressive and once I got the prong collar, we could actually go on walks where he was not jumping all over the place everytime he saw a dog. But in the beginning I would put a muzzle on her when you take her out.

I have also used a muzzle with dogs to show them that a situation is okay (and I'm talking about dog aggressive dogs, not people aggressive dogs).. but the muzzle ensures the safety of other animal/person as long as it is fitted correctly. Even the best muzzle can be knocked off by the dog if it is not fitted correctly. And a prong collar won't work right if it is not fitted correctly either.

I wish you the best of luck, but please realize this may be a bigger problem than even some trainers can handle; it is specific issue, rather than a broad spectrum respect issue... something must of clicked in her head at some point that little girls were bad.... it's going to be hard to turn that off at this late of a stage in her development.

[wildcat180]

The prong collar is a good idea, but ONLY under the direction of a professional trainer. They can help you fit it properly, and use it properly. If used incorrectly, which many people do, they're far worse than a choker ever could be. I've seen dogs with the prongs embedded in their necks and in one case, the dog needed surgery to have it removed. Why was it that bad? Because the owner couldn't stop the dog from pulling when on a leash. When the dog would pull, even with the prong collar, the owner would pull back. Oh that was such a nasty sight...

But I do agree with the use of them, so long as there's proper guidance. In the right hands, those things can be magic.

[Jadesmygirl]

Very well said, Sweet Pea!

Wildcat, because PasoLover did not ask whether or not to muzzle Keesha, but rather stated she was getting the dog fitted for a muzzle, I wanted to show my support for the decision she had made when I saw it was in question.

I am sorry, but even though you stand in your opinion, I remain unconvinced. I believe that any impact on this dog's psyche by the use of a muzzle is unknown, and to assume the effect would be harmful is purely speculative.

Also unknown, is whatever sparked the dog's dislike, which imo deems it irrelevant. I have had dogs who were teased and none became aggressive. I have seen aggressive dogs that were never teased or mistreated. It could be bad breeding or inbreeding, an ear infection made painful by high pitch sounds, or maybe the dog views little girls as prey sized and delicious looking??

My point is that there are too many other factors that could have caused this aggression that have nothing to do with the dog's psyche. To fret over the dog's imagined view of the world, rather than immediately try to prevent her dangerous behavior (which is a known) could result in disastrous consequences. Unmuzzled known "potentially dangerous dog" bites child, child scarred for life, PL sued while dog is euthanized. Seems like a gargantuan risk to me.

I personally could not, in good conscience, put my dogs psyche ahead of the safety of a child-but that's just me.

I guess I have a different view on "band aid" solutions. I don't always see "temporary fixes"-if muzzling can be called that- as a bad thing. Sometimes the band aid is necessary for the healing to take place.

WC, I could go on, but I won't continue to bore you and others on why I support PasoLover's decision to muzzle her dog, but I am fine with agreeing to disagree.

Pasolover, as a mother, I certainly appreciate your efforts! I think you are on the right track in taking responsibility to ensure public safety and in asking for advice. I wish you and Keesha luck and sincerely hope you find a good solution for all!

[wildcat180]

Originally Posted by Jadesmygirl

I personally could not, in good conscience, put my dogs psyche ahead of the safety of a child-but that's just me.

Would you please show me where I said she should? Or where I even suggested that the dog's mental state should be put ahead of a child's safety? Or where I even said she SHOULDN'T use a muzzle? All I said was that it wouldn't fix the problem, and it won't. Keesha won't know WHY she's wearing the muzzle, only that she is. How is that going to teach the dog anything?

I think this dog would benefit greatly from the direction of a professional trainer. Plain and simple. If there's a fix to be found, it'll be that way...

But hey, I've only had the benefit of working with (and for) two women, for several years, who, between the two of them, have about 60 years worth of professional dog training experience...

[Jadesmygirl]

[quote=wildcat180;83750

I think this dog would benefit greatly from the direction of a professional trainer. Plain and simple. If there's a fix to be found, it'll be that way...
:[/QUOTE]

On that, we agree!

I may have misunderstood, WC, but your posts come across quite strong to me as the cons of muzzling. ?? It sounds like you have strong feelings about that, just as I have strong feelings about dangerous dogs being muzzled. Therefore, I responded with my own pros of muzzling type post.

Personally, I think its a good thing. PasoLover, or anyone else who references this topic, can now read differing points of view and decide for her or himself what might work best. Or maybe even try several suggestions?? Or, likelier still, be forced to find a more professional source for information!

I think there is plenty of room here for many voices to speak their mind. It is one of the joys of coming here-no one person can have all the answers, all the time, and different things work for different people! I am sure most of us enjoy getting many ideas and opinions rather than being force fed one!

Again, good luck Paso Lover-and sorry for getting a bit ot there!

[wildcat180]

Originally Posted by Jadesmygirl

I may have misunderstood, WC, but your posts come across quite strong to me as the cons of muzzling. ?? It sounds like you have strong feelings about that, just as I have strong feelings about dangerous dogs being muzzled. Therefore, I responded with my own pros of muzzling type post.

Oh no, I'm not against using muzzles at all. In fact, I have them for two of my male dogs, and have used them in dealing with their problem with each other. (They fight if they get free access to each other and there's an item (or person) of competition.) That's how I know that it's not a permanent fix. I had to address the issue between the two boys to see if it was going to work, and the muzzles allowed me to do that without anyone getting seriously hurt. They helped in that respect, but they solved nothing relating to the problem at hand. My use of muzzles was in conjunction with evaluating the problem and trying to find methods to solve it. Ultimately, it turned out that the problem couldn't be fixed, so they have to live separate lives in the same house. (Now that's fun! But I couldn't see sending Ike back to the kennel where he spent over two years in a crate.)