Help save a dogs life.. joking.. sort of...

CowhorseGal · 10-30-2009, 08:03 AM

Ok, so So friends of mine decieded that I needed some protection here at the ranch.. you know, single, small statured woman, can barely defend herself.. llives here alone with her kids.. shoud have a large guard dog to stop any intruders that may or may not be lurking in the darkness .. never mind my friend, Smith and Wesson..

Sooo, I end up with a German bred female Doberman puppy.. Her sire was trained to a level 4 in that Schutzund Training,, imported from Germany they paid somwhere in the ball park of $40,000 for this dog Her dam is a out of two imported German Dobermans.. she is a level one .. my friends paid some where inther ball park of 15,000 for her.. and let me tell you this dog is awesome.. she is the sweetest thing on four feet..

So here is the problem.. My dog, Reata, will not quit jumping on the little kids.. She keeps knocking my son down (he is 22 months old and she is a good 6 inches taller that him at her back... knocked the hired help's 4 year old boy down and by the time we got over to her (about 50 feet away from us) she was completely on top of him.. playing, of course, but She has absolutley no intentions of listening when she knows I can't reach her..as soon as I get close enought to get a hold of her she runs off..she no longer jumps up on me (I would swipe her back feet out from underneath her when she did so).. But she has been impossible to teach anything to.. I can't get her housbroke either.. which totally defeats the purpose of having a protrection dog.. she has to stay in her crate if she is inside..

She won't come when I call her.. she will follow cars down the driveway as they are leaving.. headed straight for the busy road..

she was born April 8, so she is about 6 months old.. I seriously am ready to get rid of this dog.. any ideas for the jumping thing.. that is my biggest pet peeve.. she has scratched Morgan's face.. and quite honestly when she knocks him down, I have thoughts of just shooting the dog..( I am only about half joking here)

..

I can't turn my back on her or let her off of a leash.. so she spends every day in the kennel outside (while the other dos are running around having a great time) they are chihuahuas and don't jump on anybody..

I have thought about training classes.. time is kind of a factor here though.. do I have enough?..if we could just get thr jkumping thing undercontrol.. I just cannot have her jumpiong on people..

alliebath · 10-30-2009, 08:30 AM

Obedience training. If you cannot or will not take her to an organized class, at least do it at home. On a leash, hooked to a collar - at least 15 min. twice a day. Sit, down, come, stay, heel - get a book, get a DVD whatever - commit to working with her. Just like foals and kids, they do not come automatically trained. And if she is from strong working lines (there is not a Sch 4 that I am aware of though), she is probably higher drive than you may be used to - which means you have to take the time to not only train her but to exercise her. Every single day. This is not a farm dog - this is a dog with a lot of energy and needs a lot of stimulation - both mental and physical.

pasomystic · 10-30-2009, 08:48 AM

I agree with Allie--this dog will have a very high drive she has no idea what to do with. She needs obedience training, LOTS of directed exercise and much socialization with strangers and other dogs, or her protectiveness will kick in as she gets older and she will not know how to direct it--a time bomb waiting to bite the wrong person.

By directed exercise, I mean running free in a well fenced area with other large young dogs, trotting beside a bicycle, doing agility, hiking in mountains, jogging with someone, etc. Left on her own, she will not exercise enough.

She is not housebroken because she was not put on a strict schedule when very young. I tie pups up near me or to me if I cannot watch them during that process. The crate is only for night and when I am away, or seriously busy. If any other dog has messed anywhere, she will do her best to eliminate in the same spot.

She jumps because that is the instinctive greeting - sniff faces, and the way to play with siblings--as she views children. She was not taught children are to be very careful around, and they are above her in status. To stop jumping, she needs to be redirected--taught to sit to greet rather than jump. Wonderful treats given with each proper sit..then made to sit longer and longer for the treat--only given when she sits at greeting will have her sliding to a sit whenever someone comes into her space if you give everyone the idea of how to interact during training.

It sounds like you have a busy life--a mature trained dog would have been a better choice, and I sympathize with how much work this one will be. It is not her fault, she is just in the wrong situation for her youth and drive at the moment. I hope you either find a way to train or find a good home for her--she sounds great. Pics?

CowhorseGal · 10-30-2009, 08:51 AM

thanks alliebath..
as far as the level in shut. traing,,. IDK .. just what I was told.,, these guys have BSd me before so...anyway..

I do work with her at home on the leash.. she is great on a leash.. heels sits when I stop .. I actually used the lunge line to work on come.. she is great with that.. we do work daily on that.. I would not hestate to take her in public on a leash.. it is the second she is off...

It's not that I am unwilling to take her to a class.. it is the time factor.. My place is running full tilt right now...horses in training , rescues comming in.. kids with disabilities,... there are just not enough hours in the day.. So can you recomend a DVD? at least I can work with her after every thing quiets down at night..
I am not a kennel person.. so to me, if I can't get this fixed she will have to go to someone that can.. I want her to be part of my family.. not spend her days in a kennel outside and her nights in a crate inside.. but I WILL NOT toleraste her knocking the kids down..

CowhorseGal · 10-30-2009, 09:01 AM

thanks pasomystic..you are right her drive is very high.. I have always had small dogs.. so this is different for me.. i guess I am going to need to deciede if I have the time to work with her or get her to someone that does.. As my responses to alliebath said.. she goes on the leash well.. so I need to figure out what to do to get her responsive when I don't have a physical hold her her..

I will try to get some pictures of her this afternoon!!

alliebath · 10-30-2009, 09:37 AM

I totally agree with Paso - and please do not think I am being disrespectful about the amount of work you have put in - I am sure you have worked with her. I have Malinois - another HIGH drive, busy, busy, busy breed - I totally understand the work involved in breeds like this. In fact people ask me all the time about Malinois and children - and I tell them that they can be wonderful with children, but mostly I do not suggest them to people with small children. Not because they cannot be wonderful with them - but because most people with small children do not have the time necessary to raise a Malinois puppy - and much like you and Reata - she will require a TON of time and energy to get her to where you want her. Not her fault, not yours - just a decision to be made if you have the time to work with a dog with this much verve

.

You can get her over the jumping with the tips that Paso gave you. And I have to tell you - I have had high drive dogs for years, think I know what I am doing, feel fairly secure in my ability and able to put in a lot of time in my dogs - Tova still jumps on my like a total idiot. The problem is that even with the time I put in, it is still not quite enough. I have to make a concerted effort to run him every day - throw the ball, tug, etc. AND do obedience as often as I can. You cannot wear him out. I am sure Reata is very similar. And I have other dogs Tova's size for him to roughhouse and run with - but he wants time interacting with ME.

Dogs like Tova and Reata are a huge committment - for all of their lives - I own Tova's dad and at 11 1/2 yrs he has slowed down just in the last few months. I too would love to see PICS! Love Dobes!!

NorthernHorseGirl · 10-30-2009, 01:13 PM

How about what I think is called umbellical cording. It's where you have her attached to you on a leash at all times. Unless you're not home or are busy or whatever. That way you can control her quickly and effectively.
Clicker training might help, too. I trained one of my horses with it and she had it down in 2 days and loved it.
I think keeping her in a kennel is just going to make her worse when she does get out. I understand why you're doing it but it's not teaching her anything or doing anything for her energy.

Horselady44 · 10-30-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasomystic

I agree with Allie--this dog will have a very high drive she has no idea what to do with. She needs obedience training, LOTS of directed exercise and much socialization with strangers and other dogs, or her protectiveness will kick in as she gets older and she will not know how to direct it--a time bomb waiting to bite the wrong person.

By directed exercise, I mean running free in a well fenced area with other large young dogs, trotting beside a bicycle, doing agility, hiking in mountains, jogging with someone, etc. Left on her own, she will not exercise enough.

She is not housebroken because she was not put on a strict schedule when very young. I tie pups up near me or to me if I cannot watch them during that process. The crate is only for night and when I am away, or seriously busy. If any other dog has messed anywhere, she will do her best to eliminate in the same spot.

She jumps because that is the instinctive greeting - sniff faces, and the way to play with siblings--as she views children. She was not taught children are to be very careful around, and they are above her in status. To stop jumping, she needs to be redirected--taught to sit to greet rather than jump. Wonderful treats given with each proper sit..then made to sit longer and longer for the treat--only given when she sits at greeting will have her sliding to a sit whenever someone comes into her space if you give everyone the idea of how to interact during training.

It sounds like you have a busy life--a mature trained dog would have been a better choice, and I sympathize with how much work this one will be. It is not her fault, she is just in the wrong situation for her youth and drive at the moment. I hope you either find a way to train or find a good home for her--she sounds great. Pics?

I totally agree. You need to reward her whenever she is calm around the kids. Another thing you could do is get the kid and her together. Teach her to be calm and respectful around the kids. Have her on a leash and make her lay down whenever the kids come by and then maybe have the kids rub her tummy...that way when she sees a kid she may lay down and roll onto her back waiting for the kid to pet her tummy...instead of jump up on the kids trying to get their attention. Just a idea.

I also think kenneling her is making it worse. Any dog I have been around that is kenneled all day is so much more hyper when they are out of the kennel. She needs a job. You need to give her a job and teach her that job. She will mellow out alot in the next couple months as she gets older as well. If her job is to protect and guard the property...then thats what she needs to be learning. Maybe show her the property line. Make sure she knows the boundaries. Give her a spank if she goes outside the boundaries(like following the cars down the driveway) and reward her when shes calm and stays in the yard. Make sure she learns and knows the commands sit,down,stay,and no. Pups are alot of work...but its very rewarding in the end

DVD's are a great tool...and as you know...us HTians are always here to help as well

stay consistant and stern...yet reward her when shes calm and obedient. Just my input...as with all posts

singing tree · 10-30-2009, 01:57 PM

Just a thought - In extreme cases, I have used a shock collar. It was sort of a last resort type of thing. I could not even catch this dog in a run, if she did not want to be caught! IF you choose to go this route, please read all the materials carefully and proceed exactly as instructed. I did reform an Airedale with this, and the change was remarkable. I bent over backwards to make sure the dog did not associate wearing the collar with my ability to correct her from a distance. I can't go into all the details here, but it really did work. If you have any doubts about it, don't do it though. They are not a casual fix....

That being said, I could then take this dog anywhere, and she was wonderful.
I hope that you are able to find a solution to this particular pup - or just give her back...

alliebath · 10-30-2009, 02:08 PM

I soooo wished I was closer - I would love to meet this dog - she sounds exactly like the kind of dog I love!! And while I do not disagree with the idea of teaching her a command around the kids - I still think, based on her breeding and her breed - she is what I would term a "high maintenance" dog. And with that quickness in her mind - simple training and such will not be enough. She needs to really have an outlet for her energy - will she ride with you? Her energy probably will not diminsh in a few months - and without an outlet - she will become a trembleing bag of excess energy

.

Teach her things - retrieve games. I have my Malinois retrieve stuff for me ALL the time - if I am carrying a basket of clothes to or from the laundry room and a sock drops out, I give them a command to get it and they carry it with me. If I drop the remote control, "get it". If I am cooking in the kitchen and they are milling about, we go through several quick "sit, down, stand, sit, down, stand" type things. When we are out in the barn - I give Tova tasks - get this, go over there, lay down, jump up on the hay and lay down, etc.

She is not old enough - my Tova is not either - he is just shy of 2 years - but when he is old enough he will join Barry's pointer in running with the four wheeler. He roads his pointers with a long bar, the dogs are in harness and then hooked to the bar that sticks out the side. When I can take Tova riding with me (not many places allow it or are safe) he goes.

My opinion only - DO NOT TEACH her to be protective. She will be, it is there - do not encourage it. If you are not a professional, in training and handling a dog like her, doing any training to bring out aggression I think is a HUGE mistake. Socialize her, take her everywhere with you - encourage her to be outgoing and friendly. She will do her job well enough just by her look and her bark.

Edit to add - I do not disagree with Singing tree regarding the shock collar - but NEVER on a puppy. And NEVER before the dog completely understands the command you are trying to reinforce. You do not teach with the collar, you reinforce with the collar.

CowhorseGal · 10-31-2009, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singing tree

Just a thought - In extreme cases, I have used a shock collar. It was sort of a last resort type of thing. I could not even catch this dog in a run, if she did not want to be caught! IF you choose to go this route, please read all the materials carefully and proceed exactly as instructed. I did reform an Airedale with this, and the change was remarkable. I bent over backwards to make sure the dog did not associate wearing the collar with my ability to correct her from a distance. I can't go into all the details here, but it really did work. If you have any doubts about it, don't do it though. They are not a casual fix....

That being said, I could then take this dog anywhere, and she was wonderful.
I hope that you are able to find a solution to this particular pup - or just give her back...

I think this is going to be where we are headed.. a friend of mine who trains cowdogs for a living suggested it as well.. she has seen this dog in action last night.. when she brought her dogs to help gather cattle..after words I asked her advice on the situation..

Example.. we got back from picking up cattle last night.. I let all of the dogs out of their crates to run while we where unloading...she ran around, had a great time when it was time to come in.. all of the dogs come when called.. except her.. she took one look at us and went the other way.. Nowe I refuse to go chase this dog... it is 38 degrees out side and geting colder it's nine o'clock.. dark, I am hungry, tired, and cold... call me selfish but fine.. stay out ..now I am sure some of are saying, "well, she had been locked in her crate.. lots of energy" but she can be out for hours and be the same way..

Not to discredit what anyone else is saying.. but maybe I didn't convey myslef well enough.. I have done everything everyone has suggested.. when this dog is on a leash she is a dream.. she is great with the kids.. quiet.. I don't even have to hang on to the leash.. I can tuck the end in my pocket.. and it will never get tight no matter which way I turn..

I do believe that some dogs asre just difficult and I think she is one of them..

CowhorseGal · 10-31-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alliebath

My opinion only - DO NOT TEACH her to be protective. She will be, it is there - do not encourage it. If you are not a professional, in training and handling a dog like her, doing any training to bring out aggression I think is a HUGE mistake. Socialize her, take her everywhere with you - encourage her to be outgoing and friendly. She will do her job well enough just by her look and her bark.
.

Yes, I am aware of this.. I really had no intentions of "training her to be prtective".. I figure just having a dog like this around is a deterent for most people.. BUt I do understand why you say this,, I have seen people try to train protection into their dogs and they just turn mean...

With the number of people comming and going from myplace every day she is the regular meet and greet out here.. when she is loose she is happy to see everybody.. during the day.. now, at night in her crate, if someone drives up she will actually growl until she hears a famillar voice..

pasomystic · 10-31-2009, 10:47 AM

Sounds like recall training is the most important at this stage. Start in the house--call and reward with a tiny treat. About 30 times a day--when she comes, take ahold of her collar, treat, release. You are teaching her that coming is great. [I use no grain cat kibble--one kibble for a 90 lb dog per time--it works, is dry to carry at all times, and is better for them than most commercial treats available.]

Outside on a 50 ft very light line--call, hold collar briefly, praise, treat, release. The line allows her "freedom" but prevents her ignoring the recall. Reel her in like a fish if she ignores the first [and only] call. When she gets there, hold collar, treat, praise, release. In her teenagehood, this will take time--but it will work!

If she is never called and then tied or crated, but only praised and released--her recall will sharpen up tremendously. For crating, tying up, or any other form of confinement--do not call her. Go get her. If necessary, have her drag a 10 ft light line around behind her so you can get her from anywhere in the house or kennel without calling her.

Also use this line to reel her in for a treat during the above training if she ignores you. Remember--one call is enough during this training--repeating makes your commands diminish in importance. After she is good at it, stop using treats every time--use them intermittantly and she will try harder. It doesn't hurt to use them every once in awhile for life to keep the recall sharp in large areas. Good luck!

NorthernHorseGirl · 10-31-2009, 11:56 AM

That's a good point Pasomystic. If I kept getting put in a crate when I came back I'd run, too.

CowhorseGal · 10-31-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasomystic

Sounds like recall training is the most important at this stage. Start in the house--call and reward with a tiny treat. About 30 times a day--when she comes, take ahold of her collar, treat, release. You are teaching her that coming is great. [I use no grain cat kibble--one kibble for a 90 lb dog per time--it works, is dry to carry at all times, and is better for them than most commercial treats available.]

Outside on a 50 ft very light line--call, hold collar briefly, praise, treat, release. The line allows her "freedom" but prevents her ignoring the recall. Reel her in like a fish if she ignores the first [and only] call. When she gets there, hold collar, treat, praise, release. In her teenagehood, this will take time--but it will work!

If she is never called and then tied or crated, but only praised and released--her recall will sharpen up tremendously. For crating, tying up, or any other form of confinement--do not call her. Go get her. If necessary, have her drag a 10 ft light line around behind her so you can get her from anywhere in the house or kennel without calling her.

Also use this line to reel her in for a treat during the above training if she ignores you. Remember--one call is enough during this training--repeating makes your commands diminish in importance. After she is good at it, stop using treats every time--use them intermittantly and she will try harder. It doesn't hurt to use them every once in awhile for life to keep the recall sharp in large areas. Good luck!

I will try this.. please don't assume that every time I call her I crate her though.. it's like last night when we called her in the house .. she always eats inside.. I was feeding the other dogs too.. same concept right..call her to you then reward her.. with dinner
I don't ever discipline a dog that I have called to me.. there is always a reward even if it is just a "good dog" and a pat.. I also always give them a treat when I put them in their kennels.. all I have to do is say "kennel up' and every other dog here (i have 4 chihuahuas and a toy poodle as well as the doby)..runs for their respective kennels and will wait in there until they get their treat and their door is closed.. a couple of my dogs will actually go to their kennels on their own to nap...so I don't really think I am overusing the kennels or dealing with them incorrectly.. what do you think?
My dogs do not sleep in their kennels at night (except for the Doby because she is not housbroken yet).. they are only in their kennels when I leave them at home or when the activites outside are dangerous for them.. i.e. large equipment moving. lots of people in the arena or a rough colt in the round pen... I am sure you get the idea there..
I do appreciate everyones ideas, and please, if you have anymore insight I would like to hear it..

MOOSE1 · 10-31-2009, 01:27 PM

Do you have an indoor arena? I haven't read all the replies as they are longer but if you have an indoor arena that you could close off how about use that as a good place for some off lead work. Use the lunge line like you have in the past and use the arean to work her. This way she can't get away from you totaly. Or even to just vent some energy. How I would DIE to have an indoor arena if only to just let me dogs run crazy and havea good time when the weather is bad!

AngelPA · 10-31-2009, 01:52 PM

Outside on a 50 ft very light line--call, hold collar briefly, praise, treat, release. The line allows her "freedom" but prevents her ignoring the recall. Reel her in like a fish if she ignores the first [and only] call. When she gets there, hold collar, treat, praise, release.
Also use this line to reel her in for a treat during the above training if she ignores you.

This is a GREAT thing to do, but don't mess up like I did

!! I had a light line so there was barely any weight but it was strong, when I was teaching the recall and my coonhound ran the other way, not only did I burn my hands but it sliced it like a knife as well

. Wear gloves

Melissa_PQHorse · 10-31-2009, 09:31 PM

I completely agree with allie on the shock collar. They can be a valuable tool in the right hands at the right time but putting one on a puppy usually ends in disaster. No offense intended to your friend but to suggest using one on a puppy is simply wrong.

You say she listens on the leash but not off of it. When I was teaching obediencing I ran into a lot of people who would give a dog a command when they could not reinforce it in the beginning of training and the dog quickly learned when they 'had' to listen and when they didn't. Dobes are very intelligent and all it would have had to be is one time you called her and she wasn't solid on the command to undo all the work.

Please don't take offense to what I'm about to say as I'm not meaning any disrespect but honestly, with as much as you have on your plate and as much work as she's going to need I would seriously seriously consider finding an experienced dog person to take her that would utilize her talents. Perhaps you could find someone who would work out a trade for an older dog with the basics down (housebroke, no jumping on the kids, etc etc).
And also, I would make sure they were very experienced with training young dogs as opposed to other methods of behavior modification.

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10-30-2009, 08:03 AM
CowhorseGal Long Yearling Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,048	Help save a dogs life.. joking.. sort of... Ok, so So friends of mine decieded that I needed some protection here at the ranch.. you know, single, small statured woman, can barely defend herself.. llives here alone with her kids.. shoud have a large guard dog to stop any intruders that may or may not be lurking in the darkness .. never mind my friend, Smith and Wesson.. Sooo, I end up with a German bred female Doberman puppy.. Her sire was trained to a level 4 in that Schutzund Training,, imported from Germany they paid somwhere in the ball park of $40,000 for this dog Her dam is a out of two imported German Dobermans.. she is a level one .. my friends paid some where inther ball park of 15,000 for her.. and let me tell you this dog is awesome.. she is the sweetest thing on four feet.. So here is the problem.. My dog, Reata, will not quit jumping on the little kids.. She keeps knocking my son down (he is 22 months old and she is a good 6 inches taller that him at her back... knocked the hired help's 4 year old boy down and by the time we got over to her (about 50 feet away from us) she was completely on top of him.. playing, of course, but She has absolutley no intentions of listening when she knows I can't reach her..as soon as I get close enought to get a hold of her she runs off..she no longer jumps up on me (I would swipe her back feet out from underneath her when she did so).. But she has been impossible to teach anything to.. I can't get her housbroke either.. which totally defeats the purpose of having a protrection dog.. she has to stay in her crate if she is inside.. She won't come when I call her.. she will follow cars down the driveway as they are leaving.. headed straight for the busy road.. she was born April 8, so she is about 6 months old.. I seriously am ready to get rid of this dog.. any ideas for the jumping thing.. that is my biggest pet peeve.. she has scratched Morgan's face.. and quite honestly when she knocks him down, I have thoughts of just shooting the dog..( I am only about half joking here).. I can't turn my back on her or let her off of a leash.. so she spends every day in the kennel outside (while the other dos are running around having a great time) they are chihuahuas and don't jump on anybody.. I have thought about training classes.. time is kind of a factor here though.. do I have enough?..if we could just get thr jkumping thing undercontrol.. I just cannot have her jumpiong on people.. __________________ Quality Peformance horses with foundation breeding http://blackcanyonpaints.webs.com/

10-30-2009, 08:30 AM
alliebath Long Yearling Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Leavenworth, Kansas Posts: 1,097	Obedience training. If you cannot or will not take her to an organized class, at least do it at home. On a leash, hooked to a collar - at least 15 min. twice a day. Sit, down, come, stay, heel - get a book, get a DVD whatever - commit to working with her. Just like foals and kids, they do not come automatically trained. And if she is from strong working lines (there is not a Sch 4 that I am aware of though), she is probably higher drive than you may be used to - which means you have to take the time to not only train her but to exercise her. Every single day. This is not a farm dog - this is a dog with a lot of energy and needs a lot of stimulation - both mental and physical.

10-30-2009, 08:48 AM
pasomystic Coming two Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,935	I agree with Allie--this dog will have a very high drive she has no idea what to do with. She needs obedience training, LOTS of directed exercise and much socialization with strangers and other dogs, or her protectiveness will kick in as she gets older and she will not know how to direct it--a time bomb waiting to bite the wrong person. By directed exercise, I mean running free in a well fenced area with other large young dogs, trotting beside a bicycle, doing agility, hiking in mountains, jogging with someone, etc. Left on her own, she will not exercise enough. She is not housebroken because she was not put on a strict schedule when very young. I tie pups up near me or to me if I cannot watch them during that process. The crate is only for night and when I am away, or seriously busy. If any other dog has messed anywhere, she will do her best to eliminate in the same spot. She jumps because that is the instinctive greeting - sniff faces, and the way to play with siblings--as she views children. She was not taught children are to be very careful around, and they are above her in status. To stop jumping, she needs to be redirected--taught to sit to greet rather than jump. Wonderful treats given with each proper sit..then made to sit longer and longer for the treat--only given when she sits at greeting will have her sliding to a sit whenever someone comes into her space if you give everyone the idea of how to interact during training. It sounds like you have a busy life--a mature trained dog would have been a better choice, and I sympathize with how much work this one will be. It is not her fault, she is just in the wrong situation for her youth and drive at the moment. I hope you either find a way to train or find a good home for her--she sounds great. Pics? __________________ We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.

10-30-2009, 08:51 AM
CowhorseGal Long Yearling Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,048	thanks alliebath.. as far as the level in shut. traing,,. IDK .. just what I was told.,, these guys have BSd me before so...anyway.. I do work with her at home on the leash.. she is great on a leash.. heels sits when I stop .. I actually used the lunge line to work on come.. she is great with that.. we do work daily on that.. I would not hestate to take her in public on a leash.. it is the second she is off... It's not that I am unwilling to take her to a class.. it is the time factor.. My place is running full tilt right now...horses in training , rescues comming in.. kids with disabilities,... there are just not enough hours in the day.. So can you recomend a DVD? at least I can work with her after every thing quiets down at night.. I am not a kennel person.. so to me, if I can't get this fixed she will have to go to someone that can.. I want her to be part of my family.. not spend her days in a kennel outside and her nights in a crate inside.. but I WILL NOT toleraste her knocking the kids down.. __________________ Quality Peformance horses with foundation breeding http://blackcanyonpaints.webs.com/

10-30-2009, 09:01 AM
CowhorseGal Long Yearling Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,048	thanks pasomystic..you are right her drive is very high.. I have always had small dogs.. so this is different for me.. i guess I am going to need to deciede if I have the time to work with her or get her to someone that does.. As my responses to alliebath said.. she goes on the leash well.. so I need to figure out what to do to get her responsive when I don't have a physical hold her her.. I will try to get some pictures of her this afternoon!! __________________ Quality Peformance horses with foundation breeding http://blackcanyonpaints.webs.com/

10-30-2009, 09:37 AM
alliebath Long Yearling Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Leavenworth, Kansas Posts: 1,097	I totally agree with Paso - and please do not think I am being disrespectful about the amount of work you have put in - I am sure you have worked with her. I have Malinois - another HIGH drive, busy, busy, busy breed - I totally understand the work involved in breeds like this. In fact people ask me all the time about Malinois and children - and I tell them that they can be wonderful with children, but mostly I do not suggest them to people with small children. Not because they cannot be wonderful with them - but because most people with small children do not have the time necessary to raise a Malinois puppy - and much like you and Reata - she will require a TON of time and energy to get her to where you want her. Not her fault, not yours - just a decision to be made if you have the time to work with a dog with this much verve. You can get her over the jumping with the tips that Paso gave you. And I have to tell you - I have had high drive dogs for years, think I know what I am doing, feel fairly secure in my ability and able to put in a lot of time in my dogs - Tova still jumps on my like a total idiot. The problem is that even with the time I put in, it is still not quite enough. I have to make a concerted effort to run him every day - throw the ball, tug, etc. AND do obedience as often as I can. You cannot wear him out. I am sure Reata is very similar. And I have other dogs Tova's size for him to roughhouse and run with - but he wants time interacting with ME. Dogs like Tova and Reata are a huge committment - for all of their lives - I own Tova's dad and at 11 1/2 yrs he has slowed down just in the last few months. I too would love to see PICS! Love Dobes!!

10-30-2009, 01:13 PM
NorthernHorseGirl Yearling Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 510	How about what I think is called umbellical cording. It's where you have her attached to you on a leash at all times. Unless you're not home or are busy or whatever. That way you can control her quickly and effectively. Clicker training might help, too. I trained one of my horses with it and she had it down in 2 days and loved it. I think keeping her in a kennel is just going to make her worse when she does get out. I understand why you're doing it but it's not teaching her anything or doing anything for her energy. __________________ Some horses come into our lives and quickly go. Others stay awhile and make hoofprints on our hearts and we are never, ever the same. Anonymous Rest in peace Clint, I'll always love you and I'll miss you for the rest of my life. You were and will always be my perfect horse.

10-30-2009, 01:57 PM
singing tree Long Yearling Join Date: May 2009 Location: Hartville, Ohio Posts: 1,047	Just a thought - In extreme cases, I have used a shock collar. It was sort of a last resort type of thing. I could not even catch this dog in a run, if she did not want to be caught! IF you choose to go this route, please read all the materials carefully and proceed exactly as instructed. I did reform an Airedale with this, and the change was remarkable. I bent over backwards to make sure the dog did not associate wearing the collar with my ability to correct her from a distance. I can't go into all the details here, but it really did work. If you have any doubts about it, don't do it though. They are not a casual fix.... That being said, I could then take this dog anywhere, and she was wonderful. I hope that you are able to find a solution to this particular pup - or just give her back...

10-30-2009, 02:08 PM
alliebath Long Yearling Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Leavenworth, Kansas Posts: 1,097	I soooo wished I was closer - I would love to meet this dog - she sounds exactly like the kind of dog I love!! And while I do not disagree with the idea of teaching her a command around the kids - I still think, based on her breeding and her breed - she is what I would term a "high maintenance" dog. And with that quickness in her mind - simple training and such will not be enough. She needs to really have an outlet for her energy - will she ride with you? Her energy probably will not diminsh in a few months - and without an outlet - she will become a trembleing bag of excess energy. Teach her things - retrieve games. I have my Malinois retrieve stuff for me ALL the time - if I am carrying a basket of clothes to or from the laundry room and a sock drops out, I give them a command to get it and they carry it with me. If I drop the remote control, "get it". If I am cooking in the kitchen and they are milling about, we go through several quick "sit, down, stand, sit, down, stand" type things. When we are out in the barn - I give Tova tasks - get this, go over there, lay down, jump up on the hay and lay down, etc. She is not old enough - my Tova is not either - he is just shy of 2 years - but when he is old enough he will join Barry's pointer in running with the four wheeler. He roads his pointers with a long bar, the dogs are in harness and then hooked to the bar that sticks out the side. When I can take Tova riding with me (not many places allow it or are safe) he goes. My opinion only - DO NOT TEACH her to be protective. She will be, it is there - do not encourage it. If you are not a professional, in training and handling a dog like her, doing any training to bring out aggression I think is a HUGE mistake. Socialize her, take her everywhere with you - encourage her to be outgoing and friendly. She will do her job well enough just by her look and her bark. Edit to add - I do not disagree with Singing tree regarding the shock collar - but NEVER on a puppy. And NEVER before the dog completely understands the command you are trying to reinforce. You do not teach with the collar, you reinforce with the collar. Last edited by alliebath : 10-30-2009 at 02:16 PM.

10-31-2009, 10:47 AM
pasomystic Coming two Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,935	Sounds like recall training is the most important at this stage. Start in the house--call and reward with a tiny treat. About 30 times a day--when she comes, take ahold of her collar, treat, release. You are teaching her that coming is great. [I use no grain cat kibble--one kibble for a 90 lb dog per time--it works, is dry to carry at all times, and is better for them than most commercial treats available.] Outside on a 50 ft very light line--call, hold collar briefly, praise, treat, release. The line allows her "freedom" but prevents her ignoring the recall. Reel her in like a fish if she ignores the first [and only] call. When she gets there, hold collar, treat, praise, release. In her teenagehood, this will take time--but it will work! If she is never called and then tied or crated, but only praised and released--her recall will sharpen up tremendously. For crating, tying up, or any other form of confinement--do not call her. Go get her. If necessary, have her drag a 10 ft light line around behind her so you can get her from anywhere in the house or kennel without calling her. Also use this line to reel her in for a treat during the above training if she ignores you. Remember--one call is enough during this training--repeating makes your commands diminish in importance. After she is good at it, stop using treats every time--use them intermittantly and she will try harder. It doesn't hurt to use them every once in awhile for life to keep the recall sharp in large areas. Good luck! __________________ We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.

10-31-2009, 11:56 AM
NorthernHorseGirl Yearling Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 510	That's a good point Pasomystic. If I kept getting put in a crate when I came back I'd run, too. __________________ Some horses come into our lives and quickly go. Others stay awhile and make hoofprints on our hearts and we are never, ever the same. Anonymous Rest in peace Clint, I'll always love you and I'll miss you for the rest of my life. You were and will always be my perfect horse.

10-31-2009, 01:27 PM
MOOSE1 Yearling Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 668	Do you have an indoor arena? I haven't read all the replies as they are longer but if you have an indoor arena that you could close off how about use that as a good place for some off lead work. Use the lunge line like you have in the past and use the arean to work her. This way she can't get away from you totaly. Or even to just vent some energy. How I would DIE to have an indoor arena if only to just let me dogs run crazy and havea good time when the weather is bad! __________________ Beth, www.bnjappaloosas.com GiGi-Palamino Appaloosa Mare

10-31-2009, 01:52 PM
AngelPA Yearling Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: PA Posts: 667	Outside on a 50 ft very light line--call, hold collar briefly, praise, treat, release. The line allows her "freedom" but prevents her ignoring the recall. Reel her in like a fish if she ignores the first [and only] call. When she gets there, hold collar, treat, praise, release. Also use this line to reel her in for a treat during the above training if she ignores you. This is a GREAT thing to do, but don't mess up like I did!! I had a light line so there was barely any weight but it was strong, when I was teaching the recall and my coonhound ran the other way, not only did I burn my hands but it sliced it like a knife as well. Wear gloves

10-31-2009, 09:31 PM
Melissa_PQHorse Long Yearling Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,198	I completely agree with allie on the shock collar. They can be a valuable tool in the right hands at the right time but putting one on a puppy usually ends in disaster. No offense intended to your friend but to suggest using one on a puppy is simply wrong. You say she listens on the leash but not off of it. When I was teaching obediencing I ran into a lot of people who would give a dog a command when they could not reinforce it in the beginning of training and the dog quickly learned when they 'had' to listen and when they didn't. Dobes are very intelligent and all it would have had to be is one time you called her and she wasn't solid on the command to undo all the work. Please don't take offense to what I'm about to say as I'm not meaning any disrespect but honestly, with as much as you have on your plate and as much work as she's going to need I would seriously seriously consider finding an experienced dog person to take her that would utilize her talents. Perhaps you could find someone who would work out a trade for an older dog with the basics down (housebroke, no jumping on the kids, etc etc). And also, I would make sure they were very experienced with training young dogs as opposed to other methods of behavior modification. __________________ http://melmissa.deviantart.com/